Impressions of the Tridentine Mass

[HashemEchad]

I just Googled this…it seemed I stand at least partly corrected.

The TLM was not banned outright, but it WAS restricted in most places: latinmass.org/faq.html

So that explains why I was told in the late 70s that “its not allowed anymore”.

 

[Auntie_M]

To HashemEchad

Why are you supporting SSPX when you admitted that you are NOT CHISTIAN?

Does this POPE bashing that they do intrigue you?

 

[HashemEchad]

To HashemEchad

Why are you supporting SSPX when you admitted that you are NOT CHISTIAN?

Does this POPE bashing that they do intrigue you?

I’m not “supporting” the SSPX.

I’m simply stating, as a lover of the Latin language, classical history, art and music (which includes the TLM and Gregorian chant), that I am grateful they made this Mass available at a time when I wanted to experience it, and no one else was making it readily available.

 

[PrayforMallory]

To HashemEchad

Why are you supporting SSPX when you admitted that you are NOT CHISTIAN?

Does this POPE bashing that they do intrigue you?

As an Orthodox Jew, his opinion is important.

I’m not Jewish, but I can understand how some of the more liberal strands of Judaism have strayed from their traditions, so I admire the Orthodox Jews. I’m not Buddhist, but I can tell a difference between a Chinese Buddhist monk and Richard Gere.

 

[whitenight21]

Can anyone tell me why the altar servers in Latin Mass hold the Priest’s chasuble up during consecration?

 

[johncatholic]

I think there should be options available if some parishioners want the Tridentine Mass. However, I feel they should restore the altar rails and I think communion should not be taken by the hand like its an ordinary piece of bread. There should be altar boys or girls assisting the priest or ministers when giving out communion.

 

[Auntie_M]

I think there should be options available if some parishioners want the Tridentine Mass. However, I feel they should restore the altar rails and I think communion should not be taken by the hand like its an ordinary piece of bread. There should be altar boys or girls assisting the priest or ministers when giving out communion.

I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong. I understand that the practice of taking communion in the hand goes way way back. But it was changed when some were NOT eating it right away. Some were found to even take it home and desecrate it. Taking in the mouth was a sure way of this not happening. (or less of it happening). People were putting it in their pockets, etc.
so the practice of “seeing” the host eaten became the norm.

As far as the altar rails, they were there to “separate” priests from laity. We don’t need separation, we need participation.

 

[Auntie_M]

Could someone explain to me why the tridentine mass is called the “Mass of all times” or “the mass of the saints”…

to me, the “mass of all times” is just that, a mass of ALL times, not just a certain era. Or the mass of the saints is also a mass of all christians…we all want and strive to be saints.

So, where did these “sayings” originate?

 

[Auntie_M]

My true impression of the Tridentine Mass has been so clouded by the “talk” coming from people going to them.

By saying this is the “mass of all times” or “mass of the saints” paints a picture of the assumption that the new mass is somehow not right, or as I have even heard.“evil”. This causes division…

Everybody is going to HAVE to admit that the Pope knows what he is doing. He has ruled that BOTH are good, that neither is better than the other. “They are the same mass but two different rites”.

I, personally, have been to an FSSP, and SSPX and the new mass. All are equally pious. Alot of the “reference” in any mass or any church for that matter, comes from how YOU feel. If you are not feeling very charitable, then you won’t appreciate anyone else ACTING charitably. Alot of the “Mood” set by the Tridentine Mass may and probably does get people “in that same mood”
but also, the new mass can also “put you in that mood” if you are open to it.

What I am trying to get across…both masses are great, both are to honor and worship God. But if YOU don’t go with that intention, then neither one will satisfy you. There is Absolutely NO reason to call either one evil or anything to that effect.

And the ones that are bashing the new mass, the pope, etc., are doing more harm to the Tridentine rite than, I hope, they realize. I would certainly hate to think this is all done purposefully.

 

[MikeDunphy]

These are expressions of honor for the Mass that is our spiritual heritage. The Tridentine Mass was very similar to the Mass of 100 years before the Council of Trent which was very similar to the Mass of 100 years before that, and so on for many centuries. There is also the hope that this Mass will endure for many centuries to come and so the expression “Mass of all times” is used.

The phrase “Mass of the saints” is used to remind us that most of the saints we hear about were spiritually formed by some version of the Traditional Latin Mass.

Could someone explain to me why the tridentine mass is called the “Mass of all times” or “the mass of the saints”…

to me, the “mass of all times” is just that, a mass of ALL times, not just a certain era. Or the mass of the saints is also a mass of all christians…we all want and strive to be saints.

So, where did these “sayings” originate?

 

[m134e5]

At the Latin Mass, the Priest says the following to each communicant: “Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen”

Actually, it has been my experience that it usually just ends up being a jumbled mess of words. That whole phrase takes too long to say and the priest just ends up mushing things together (even nowadays- when I hear priests who are otherwise very reverent and have great attention to detail). I don’t see how that is reverent- at least any more reverent than the simplified version.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Actually, it has been my experience that it usually just ends up being a jumbled mess of words. That whole phrase takes too long to say and the priest just ends up mushing things together (even nowadays- when I hear priests who are otherwise very reverent and have great attention to detail). I don’t see how that is reverent- at least any more reverent than the simplified version.

Once you learn the Latin words, it becomes as natural as hearing someone say it in English, regardless of speed (which in my experience has never been faster than “Body of Christ,” which is also completely audible)…

 

[Conservative]

Claire -
Like yourself - I remember the way it USED to be…and growing up in Catholic school, I know ALL the hymns (well almost all) - in Latin - in alto. I feel left out when there’s a choir (Gregorian Chant or otherwise), and I can’t sing the hymns I know and love…(If anyone hears an alto voice from the pews, it’s me…no kidding! Rarely, do I stand on ceremony if it’s a dearly-loved “golden oldie” that I haven’t heard / sung for a long time. I just join in. But if it’s Gregorian Chant, I leave it to the Choir who, I’m sure, have put in a lot of time to practice.

 

[m134e5]

Once you learn the Latin words, it becomes as natural as hearing someone say it in English, regardless of speed (which in my experience has never been faster than “Body of Christ,” which is also completely audible)…

I know the Latin words very well. I clearly hear priests getting tongue-tied when they’re trying to rattle off all those words in Latin as they distribute communion. As I’ve said before, I love the Tridentine Mass- but I don’t buy that Latin is somehow holier or more reverent or anything like that- especially not when they words are all jumbled together.

 

[Auntie_M]

I think there should be options available if some parishioners want the Tridentine Mass. However, I feel they should restore the altar rails and I think communion should not be taken by the hand like its an ordinary piece of bread. There should be altar boys or girls assisting the priest or ministers when giving out communion.

The communion taken in hand orginated WAY before the mouth did. There were abuses going on at that time . People were taking the hosts home with them, and some were even desecrating them. So the “by mouth” was instituted at that time to prevent this from happening. Taking in the hand by no means treats the host as an ordinary piece of bread. Why do you think that?

Why do you also think it necessary for altar girls or boys to assist in giving out communion. My priest does this quite well by himself.

I think this practice makes priest overly cautious when they are not “being assisted”. They do take EXTRA care not to drop any of the host and to handle it very competently. Which actually puts more emphasis on what it really is.

And the rails,…It is my understanding that the rails were put in to be begin with to “separate” the priest from the laity. This “separation” was “supposedly” to represent the priest going to the “holy of holies”. However, somehow, it got twisted in the meaning. Instead of the priest being separated for that purpose, the rails started being used more as a communion aide when kneeling.

The priest that says mass with his back to the people are said to “Lead” the people to Christ. But the railings actually
keep these feelings at bay, because of the “separation”.
Theory is that you cannot “follow” the priest because the rails separate you from him. So they have become more of a deterent than a help.

Any of these “rites” should not “make” you nor “prevent” you from adoring God and worshiping him to the fullest. That comes from the heart.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I know the Latin words very well. I clearly hear priests getting tongue-tied when they’re trying to rattle off all those words in Latin as they distribute communion. As I’ve said before, I love the Tridentine Mass- but I don’t buy that Latin is somehow holier or more reverent or anything like that- especially not when they words are all jumbled together.

You are talking about something that could be just as easily true of English. Anyone can jumble words and not pronounce them clearly enough. It’s not inherent to any language.

As far as it being more reverent, well, why isn’t it more reverent? I think it is, and that’s because of the following:

1. It has always been and still is the official language of the Church.
2. It’s a dead language, so the meaning of words can’t change over time, thus the doctrine is fixed (like the Arabic in the Koran).
3. Not being our native tongue, it detached the liturgy from the everyday world.
4. It is prominent throughout the history of the Church, of philosophy, of art, of science, etc.
5. It is aesthetically superior to English because we have bastardized the English language in our every day American speech (i.e. taken all the artfulness out of it)/

Just my opinions. I think everyone ought to know some Latin, just like everyone ought to know something about civics.

 

[PrayforMallory]

The communion taken in hand orginated WAY before the mouth did. There were abuses going on at that time . People were taking the hosts home with them, and some were even desecrating them. So the “by mouth” was instituted at that time to prevent this from happening. Taking in the hand by no means treats the host as an ordinary piece of bread. Why do you think that?

There are still abuses.

I can’t speak for him, but I think when it comes to communion in the hand, the cultural perspective informs the practice more than we realize. So, taking communion in the hand isn’t the same for us as it is for Eastern Catholics, as it is for people in antiquity.

The act of kneeling and opening your mouth is an act of submission. In my opinion, it’s particularly vital in the current Western culture. People never have to nod, kneel, etc. to anything in the course of their daily lives.

In Christ’s day people attended a meal by laying down. Of course, we can’t exactly lay out on a couch when we take communion. The reason in the West it was on the tongue, kneeling, is kind of important to the cultural context.

 

[Auntie_M]

You are talking about something that could be just as easily true of English. Anyone can jumble words and not pronounce them clearly enough. It’s not inherent to any language.

As far as it being more reverent, well, why isn’t it more reverent? I think it is, and that’s because of the following:

1. It has always been and still is the official language of the Church.
2. It’s a dead language, so the meaning of words can’t change over time, thus the doctrine is fixed (like the Arabic in the Koran).
3. Not being our native tongue, it detached the liturgy from the everyday world.
4. It is prominent throughout the history of the Church, of philosophy, of art, of science, etc.
5. It is aesthetically superior to English because we have bastardized the English language in our every day American speech (i.e. taken all the artfulness out of it)/

Just my opinions. I think everyone ought to know some Latin, just like everyone ought to know something about civics.

Latin is a very pretty language, but so is French, and I love to hear the Brits talk. Very proper and all. But…

I think the Apostles actualy spoke arabic, or jewish, or maybe even some Greek. Latin did not come into use until Rome was declared the official “home” of the church and therefore Latin to be the official “language”. However, it was NOT the language everywhere a Catholic Church was. The good news was still being preached in most vernaculars…ex. African…Greek…Chinese…

When the apostles preached to the people, (this is in the Bible)
“they each heard in their own language”. Why do you suppose this was, that God was allowing everyone to understand what was being said"…

I understand the “theory” that Latin is a dead language and that keeps it true to meaning. But just as with all languages, there are translations, where people can at least get an “idea” of what is being said. And then if there is a question, we still have the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”, the big green book…

As far as “detaching” the liturgy, yes it does do that to the extent that years ago people did not know what was being said and most just sat and said their Rosaries.

And if my memory serves me right, Greek was the more “prominant” language in the Church in the beginning.

I hope this clarifies some of these issues.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Latin is a very pretty language, but so is French, and I love to hear the Brits talk. Very proper and all. But…

I think the Apostles actualy spoke arabic, or jewish, or maybe even some Greek. Latin did not come into use until Rome was declared the official “home” of the church and therefore Latin to be the official “language”. However, it was NOT the language everywhere a Catholic Church was. The good news was still being preached in most vernaculars…ex. African…Greek…Chinese…

When the apostles preached to the people, (this is in the Bible)
“they each heard in their own language”. Why do you suppose this was, that God was allowing everyone to understand what was being said"…

I understand the “theory” that Latin is a dead language and that keeps it true to meaning. But just as with all languages, there are translations, where people can at least get an “idea” of what is being said. And then if there is a question, we still have the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”, the big green book…

As far as “detaching” the liturgy, yes it does do that to the extent that years ago people did not know what was being said and most just sat and said their Rosaries.

And if my memory serves me right, Greek was the more “prominant” language in the Church in the beginning.

I hope this clarifies some of these issues.

It’s certainly true that Aramaic, Greek, etc. predated Latin. That’s a fact. However, it’s also true that Latin became and still is the official language of the Church.

People today have more advantages than people did in 1960. I understand not everyone is going to prefer the Tridentine Mass, and if somebody has seriously examined it, made a good effort at trying to appreciate it, who could fault them for not preferring it?

Of course, they could also never go ever in their lives and not be at fault. But still, I think that since we have a choice, we should encourage people to try out both, because the one they end up preferring will be the one that strengthens them, hopefully.

We have greater access to printing now. Every single parish can have weekly missals printed at a low cost. People can get online and become amateur experts at everything from brewing their own beer to creating video games to knowing everything there is to know about Star Wars. I don’t think people who would be so inclined to assist at the Tridentine Mass could be deterred by the Latin. The old “nobody will understand it” argument just doesn’t apply to the average person. I mean, very few of us on this forum probably have theology degrees. I don’t, and we’ve all at some point cited encyclicals and councils. 50 years ago, only scholars could have done that.

Now, that’s not to say everybody ought to go. If they feel inclined, though, they ought to be able to go without stumbling blocks put in their way (such as condemnations of it,etc.).

We could probably do a lot of good reaching out to confused people if this section of the forum started to be more outreach oriented towards people who might find salvation in the EF, instead of discussion the merits/demerits of the other form.

Nobody sells a Ford by putting down a Chevy.

 

[Conservative]

Awe, you guys are lucky that you even have Latin Mass to attend. Currently living in Canada, but will be moving to Slovakia in the fall, I really look forward to attending Latin Mass!!! Just watching the Masses on EWTN is amazing, with the signing of the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater, oh, its heavenly!!

Mathias

There are printed Directories of Tridentine Latin Masses - nationwide in the U.S., (I’m not sure about Canada but I’ll bet there is one)…why not look for them online…and you might want to check for Slovakia, too. Keep trying, keep praying - and remember - June is not only the month dedicated to the Sacred Heart but it’s also the month of the feast of St. Anthony (patron of lost things?)…ask St. Anthony to help you FIND the Latin Mass in your area. (Even when I haven’t literally “lost” something, I use the word “find” in a prayer to St. Anthony…)
Good luck in finding the Mass, in your move, and -
God bless you !