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WanderAimlessly
Guest
Thanks for proving my point. At least I admit to the validity and necessity of the EF Mass and that the OF Mass can be improved.
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James0235
Guest
I called you out on your hypocrisy so your only response is this? Certainly you can come up with a better response than that.
Incompetent is the most charitable word for it. It doesn’t take any knowledge of Latin at all realize that if you translate “Et cum spiritu tuo” as “and with your spirit” then you are missing something. A first year Latin student would not have left out the word spirit.
And there are countless other examples. Why is it that the entire Mass is being translated now? It’s difficult to say retranslated because what we have had seems more like a paraphrase at times.
So, it was either incompetence or it was intentionally mistranslated. I am choosing to believe that it wasn’t deliberate. If it was, then with the rewriting of prayers and the removal of references to saints, angels, and the soul, then it was probably diabolical.
James
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James0235
Guest
When did I ever question that the OF was valid? And when did I say that the EF could not be improved?
You are suggesting that I have said things that I have never said.
James
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Yerusalyim
Guest
I reject all your suggestions as a plan that really would damage the unity of the Church, especially in the United States.
My biggest suggestion for improving the NO…move the rite of peace to the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
My biggest suggestion for improving the NO…move the rite of peace to the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
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James0235
Guest
In what way? For the most part it seems to be what Vatican II called for in the reform of the Mass.
I believe the Pope Benedict made this suggestion too back when he went by the name Joseph Ratzinger. So, this might just happen one day.
James
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Yerusalyim
Guest
Because the majority of US catholics will reject mass in latin.
And the suggestion by someone to make us once again kneel and receive communion on the tongue at an altar rail will also turn off most US Catholics.
And the suggestion by someone to make us once again kneel and receive communion on the tongue at an altar rail will also turn off most US Catholics.
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Miles_Mariae
Guest
How dare you bring up VII in a context not convenient for the liberal agenda! Closed minded bigotry is what it is…
Nah, nice post
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Miles_Mariae
Guest
Even though VII calls for it? Popular opinion doesn’t override Church decisions.
And what, make them schism? If they are so vehemently against showing more reverence to the Eucharist, I wonder what they’re doing here anyway.
Anyway, is there statistical evidence to support your claims, out of curiosity?
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James0235
Guest
Actually I don’t think the majority of people care. They will go along with anything.
Most Catholics are sheep and will follow where lead. Actually, I take that back. All Catholics are sheep - following our shepherds.
But, most people don’t seem to care if Mass is tack or reverent. They don’t care if it the music is praise and worship or sacred polyphony.
I think very few would reject anything.
James
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MrS
Guest
I suppose if one were asked in a poll, choose one:
{1} Yes I believe in the Real Presence, and want to receive on the tongue and kneeling
{2} Yes I believe in the Real Presence, but the method of reception does not concern me
{3} Not sure if I believe in the Real Presence, but I want to be as reverent as possible, just in case…
{4} Not sure if I believe in the Real Presence, so standing, kneeling is all the same to me
I wonder if Catholics would be honest with themselves in their answers. You can’t really say anything you want here, cuz others will know “who you are” (including those pesky mods…
) … but an anonymous poll might prove interesting..
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peregrinator_it
Guest
Sighs deeply You know, (and I’m not just addressing this to you, but to everyone on this thread) I sympathize with WanderAimlessly. It’s fine to have liturgical preferences. If you prefer the EF, great.
What arouses hostility, particularly in those of us (like WanderAimlessly & myself) who rejoice in the liturgical patrimony (Latin, Gregorian chant, etc.) of the Church, but also prefer the legitimate changes (NOT abuses) in the “new” Mass
is the championing of a preference, to the point where some refuse to see any good in the Pauline Mass, or where the claim is made that it’s not possible to want to preserve the liturgical patrimony of the Church and yet still prefer the Pauline Mass. See the last paragraph of your post for an example.
Anyway, perhaps a better title for this thread would be “Improving the celebration of the Pauline Mass…”
I have to say that most of the proposed changes (with the exception of the prayers at the foot of the Altar) sound like the Mass at my home parish. If you want the change, go request it; these changes can happen.
It would be, I think, instructive and productive to have a discussion of the changes (just the changes; not treat abuses as legitimate changes) in the Mass- but in order for this to happen each “side” would have to admit that there is something valuable that other “side” prefers…
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Elizabeth2
Guest
I wouldn’t like to see the Mass in Latin again. Maybe on special occasions, but not regularly. It is so much more difficult to pay attention when another language is used than ones own. I know we used to have the translation in our missals, but it’s not the same as hearing the spoken word. From what I understand, the Mass was originally said in Latin because that was the vernacular of most of the Christians at that time. Or maybe the language of those in positions of authority in the Church.
Years ago I asked permission to go to an Anglican Evensong with a friend, and I was just overwhelmed when all the prayers were in English. It made the service come alive. I wouldn’t like to see us go back to Latin.
I would be interested to hear from anyone who knows:
When did Latin become the universal Language of the Mass?
And am I right: that Latin was the language spoken at that time by the elite.
Years ago I asked permission to go to an Anglican Evensong with a friend, and I was just overwhelmed when all the prayers were in English. It made the service come alive. I wouldn’t like to see us go back to Latin.
I would be interested to hear from anyone who knows:
When did Latin become the universal Language of the Mass?
And am I right: that Latin was the language spoken at that time by the elite.
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MrS
Guest
Actually Latin was the common language of the “man in the streets”
St Jerome’s translation into Latin is called the Vulgate,
Vulgate means the “vulgar”… not the crude, but the common or base language of the masses (no pun).
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Yerusalyim
Guest
This arogant proposition that somehow one who recieves standing in the hand or on the tongue is less reverent than kneeling is quite irking.
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peregrinator_it
Guest
As a former Latin teacher, I would like to say that a first year Latin student would most definately have left out the word “spirit.” Or mistranslated it as “mind.” And would also have translated the whole phrase in the wrong case.
But, seriously, as to the above, huh??? I don’t get you at all.
One of my frustrations as one who prefers the OF in (trying) to converse with the Traditionalists, is the majority of them base their complaints about the OF on the wretched ICEL translation and treat it as though it were the original text of the Pauline Mass. Incidentally, the saints & angels etc. are still present in the Latin, but the listing of saints by name has been reduced…
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MrS
Guest
Some are irked by the opposing position/opinion.
Some are sadened by the opposing position/opinion.
As one of the latter, Mother Theresa was moved to tears at seeing the changes so easily accepted by so many.
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Some are sadened by the opposing position/opinion.
As one of the latter, Mother Theresa was moved to tears at seeing the changes so easily accepted by so many.
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MrS
Guest
I was just looking at another blog site… found this latest contribution rather interesting.
unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2008/02/brilliant-quote-from-favorite-saint.html
especially the last item:
" This puts one in mind of today’s traditionalist Catholic motto:
We are what you once were.
We believe what you once believed.
We worship as you once worshipped.
If you were right then, we are right now.
If we are wrong now, you were wrong then. "
.
unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2008/02/brilliant-quote-from-favorite-saint.html
especially the last item:
" This puts one in mind of today’s traditionalist Catholic motto:
We are what you once were.
We believe what you once believed.
We worship as you once worshipped.
If you were right then, we are right now.
If we are wrong now, you were wrong then. "
.
1
14er
Guest
Re-introducing Latin into the NO will take a long time. Most people seem to think that since its a foreign language, there is no way they can understand it. My advice is to learn the Gloria, Holy Holy Holy, Our Father, and Lamb of God, in Latin. These four are easily memorized, especially in conjunction with a gregorian chant CD. Then there are simple grammar instructions for homeschoolers grades 1-5 widely available. These are very simple steps to take, and the results are very rewarding.
With a LITTLE effort, these prayers will no longer be in a “foreign” language.
With a LITTLE effort, these prayers will no longer be in a “foreign” language.
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James0235
Guest
The problem is that this goes both ways on these forums. Few are quicker to complain about any thread suggesting any changes to the NO than WanderAimlessly. The persecution complex he (she?) seem to have would be a bit amusing if he (she?) weren’t so hypocritical about these threads.
Why complain that the NO is being attacked in a thread if you are at the same time participating in a thread that is the polar opposite - suggesting changes to the TLM.
It is hypocrisy and it is dishonest.
James
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James0235
Guest
Are you objecting to any Latin being used at all? Because that is what this thread is about. The OP did not suggest that Mass be completely in Latin.
He suggested parts of it be in Latin - which is certainly what the 2nd Vatican Council seemed to be calling for - some in Latin and some in the vernacular.
James
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