In Catholicism: No man knows the day or the hour? Does Jesus know?

[Benadam]

Yes, but the divine nature can’t manifest fully by means of an earthly body. Jesus’ mind was born into the world and enters a state of becoming like anyone.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

And why can’t God do that.
According to you I guess not. Maybe God for you isn’t powerful eneogh. My God can and did.

I already answered this question. I can see this isn’t an exchange of ideas between you and I but your attempt to win a Jesus isn’t God argument.

You’re suggestion that it was God the Father who put a limit on Jesus’ knowledge is possible, but there are three significant issues:

1. There is no evidence to back it up. It’s a mere musing claiming to know the minds of two persons of God.
2. It raises further questions as to how the persons of the Godhead interact, and they too can’t be backed up. This includes not only the Father cutting off some knowledge to the Son, but also the problem with the Holy Spirit not knowing the day and hour.
3. It’s internally inconsistent. Jesus is shown to possess divine knowledge at times and divine power at times. There is no dividing line to show how or why certain knowledge Jesus is allowed to have and some not. It’s like a movie or book where the hero is said to possess certain skill except when it’s necessary for the plot that he doesn’t have them. Why can Jesus know all of the signs of his return but not the day and hour? Because the Father said so is not an answer, and certainly not one backed with facts.

Thus far I’ve provided ideas and unfortunately you’ve only brought conjecture.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Yes, yes, continue in your fundamentalist “plain speech” approach to scriptures.

Wes, we’ve been through this before on CAF. A figurative reading of something doesn’t mean the exact opposite of a reading. “Raining cats and dogs” doesn’t mean literal cats and dogs, but it does refer to actual percipitation. Apologists have such disregard for language that they want X to mean not X, as if “raining cats and dogs” could be used to describe a sunny day.

Let’s take theology out of the equation. Imagine that Jesus wanted to impart on the apostles in the Olivet Discourse that in a literal sense that in no uncertain terms only the Father knows the day and hour of his return (not the angels in Heaven, not himself, not anyone but the Father)? What words would he use. He would use the same words. So now we are to understand that something in the Bible could mean what is written or its opposite. From there meaning is derived not from the words themselves but from what the reader puts into it, like a verbal Rorschach test. That is no way to impart wisdom.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I think because he didn’t mention the Holy Spirit that He does know. I think if even the Holy Spirit was out of the loop Jesus might have said, " and if you can accept it, even the Holy Spirit knows not the time". for those who have ears to hear.

AINg is correct. According to the Bible Jesus said no one knew except for God the Father. He didn’t say just that he didn’t know and God the Father knew, he said that one single entity knew: The Father. By Jesus’ words the Holy Spirit does not know and there is no rationalization of a human nature to explain that fact away.

By your reasoning since Jesus didn’t mention Satan that it’s possible that Satan knows the day and hour.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

However, we know that is not the teaching of the Catholic Church (that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are omniscent) nor is that that same as what is stated in Matthew 24:36.

Are you saying that Matthew 24:36, a quote from Jesus, is wrong?

 

[Benadam]

I’m wondering, I thought God emptied Himself to become man. That is because He was going to become a lump of cells in Mary’s womb. Was going to enter a state of becoming like all of us.

Wouldn’t the Holy Spirit haft to empty Himself too a little

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

This idea that Jesus sometimes speaks from hus human nature and sometimes from his divine nature doesn’t add up.

The quote from Matthew we’ve been referring to is in the late-middle part of the Olivet Discourse, a monologue where Jesus is seemingly tappen into and speaking from his divine nature. Here are some (but not all) of the things that Jesus said that could only be from a divine person seeing the future:

1. Not one stone of the temple would be on top of another.
2. People will be coming out claiming to be the Messiah.
3. Nation will rise against nation. Kindom against kingdom.
4. There will be famines and earthquakes.
5. They will be hated and persecuted.
6. Many will turn away from their faith.
7. For many love will grow cold.
8. At the end the Gospel will be preached to the whole world.
9. There will be great distress in the last days unequaled by anything before.
10. Just after that distress the sun and moon will go black.
11. Stars will fall from the sky.
12. Heavenly bodies will be shaken.
13. There will be a sign in heaven all the world will see and they will mourn.
14. There will be a great trumpet call to gather the elect.
15. This will all occur within the lifetimes of people he was speaking to.

All of these various pieces of specific and powerful information and without interruption he says that he doesn’t know the day and hour, but his father in Heaven does. He has divine knowledge except when he doesn’t.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I’m wondering, I thought God emptied Himself to become man. That is because He was going to become a lump of cells in Mary’s womb. Was going to enter a state of becoming like all of us.

Wouldn’t the Holy Spirit haft to empty Himself too a little

The Holy Spirit is a separate person in the Godhead. He wasn’t manifesting himself in a human form or splitting his nature like Jesus allegedly was. I don’t personally buy this idea of a split personality Jesus sometimes speaking from one nature or the other, but there is nothing at all to suggest an omni-everything Holy Spirit would have to do anything that would necessitate not knowing a future event.

 

[AlNg]

Here are some (but not all) of the things that Jesus said that could only be from a divine person seeing the future:
Not one stone of the temple would be on top of another.
People will be coming out claiming to be the Messiah.
Nation will rise against nation. Kindom against kingdom.
There will be famines and earthquakes.
They will be hated and persecuted.
Many will turn away from their faith.
For many love will grow cold.
At the end the Gospel will be preached to the whole world.
There will be great distress in the last days unequaled by anything before.
Just after that distress the sun and moon will go black.
Stars will fall from the sky.
Heavenly bodies will be shaken.
There will be a sign in heaven all the world will see and they will mourn.
There will be a great trumpet call to gather the elect.
This will all occur within the lifetimes of people he was speaking to.

Could this be one of the places in the Bible that you are not supposed to take literally, but only metaphorically? Take the last statement, for example:
“This will all occur within the lifetimes of people he was speaking to.”
Could these things all be parables or metaphors of some kind?

 

[Benadam]

The Holy Spirit is a separate person in the Godhead.

ok

splitting his nature like Jesus allegedly was.

2 natures can coexist apparently

I don’t personally buy this idea of a split personality Jesus sometimes speaking from one nature or the other,

speaking from natures? I guess maybe it’s natural for divine and human nature;s to be one?

but there is nothing at all to suggest an omni-everything Holy Spirit would have to do anything that would necessitate not knowing a future event.

yup well said. Then the Holy Spirit knows the time and hour.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Then if the Holy Spirit knows the time and hour, then Jesus was wrong when he said that only the Father knows.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Could this be one of the places in the Bible that you are not supposed to take literally, but only metaphorically? Take the last statement, for example:
“This will all occur within the lifetimes of people he was speaking to.”
Could these things all be parables or metaphors of some kind?

While it’s possible they’re metaphors it’s troublesome that what arguably is the most important event in humanity’s future, the return of Jesus, is described as metaphor.

Also we can’t just look at a passage and say that it’s metaphorical without doing a few things. If it’s metaphorical, what does it symbolize? Why should we choose a metaphorical explanation over a literal one? If we’re saying some parts of a passage are literal and some are metaphorical, how do we know which parts are which? If we conclude that it’s a particular interpretation of a metaphor, does it raise further questions that must be asked. Unfortunately I find that some defenders of the faith will gladly state that a passage is a metaphor without then digging into the particulars of such a statement.

As far as the part about happening in the lifetimes of the people he was speaking to, I don’t want to go off-topic (since we’re dealing with Jesus’ knowledge and not his accuracy), but I will say there are other passages which show that was meant to be taken literally.

 

[Benadam]

His listeners didn’t comprehend God as three persons. Maybe Jesus felt there was no reason to tell them.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

His listeners didn’t comprehend God as three persons. Maybe Jesus felt there was no reason to tell them.

The problem with that is that those same listeners were also told that the unforgiveable sin was to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.

“And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matthew 12:31-32).

Whether they believed that the Holy Spirit was a person of God or not, it doesn’t matter. They knew it to exist and to be revered. Not including the Holy Spirit as one of the entities to know the day and hour means that it doesn’t know.

 

[Vico]

Benadam:

And why can’t God do that.
According to you I guess not. Maybe God for you isn’t powerful eneogh. My God can and did.

I already answered this question. I can see this isn’t an exchange of ideas between you and I but your attempt to win a Jesus isn’t God argument.

You’re suggestion that it was God the Father who put a limit on Jesus’ knowledge is possible, but there are three significant issues:

1. There is no evidence to back it up. It’s a mere musing claiming to know the minds of two persons of God.
2. It raises further questions as to how the persons of the Godhead interact, and they too can’t be backed up. This includes not only the Father cutting off some knowledge to the Son, but also the problem with the Holy Spirit not knowing the day and hour.
3. It’s internally inconsistent. Jesus is shown to possess divine knowledge at times and divine power at times. There is no dividing line to show how or why certain knowledge Jesus is allowed to have and some not. It’s like a movie or book where the hero is said to possess certain skill except when it’s necessary for the plot that he doesn’t have them. Why can Jesus know all of the signs of his return but not the day and hour? Because the Father said so is not an answer, and certainly not one backed with facts.

Thus far I’ve provided ideas and unfortunately you’ve only brought conjecture.

Luke 2:52

52 And Jesus advanced in wisdom, and age, and grace with God and men.

Philippians 2:5-8

5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.
8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

Omniscence of Jesus is expressed in the glorified body after the death and Resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

However, we know that is not the teaching of the Catholic Church (that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are omniscent) nor is that that same as what is stated in Matthew 24:36.

Are you saying that Matthew 24:36, a quote from Jesus, is wrong?

The truth that is asserted is the same but the expression is different. I already posted the commentary.

 

[Luke-Suncook]

l;er li;uyetioy8 rto[u8y ;i

 

[Luke-Suncook]

;lihjdrg ;puiart p;uioyqt ty

 

[Luke-Suncook]

;iugfg ;iuywetg oqeyhrt o’qeurty

 

[Luke-Suncook]

'lihargkh asdr.;ukyh;khtrh