In Chicago, Pope Francis Agenda has a champion in Cupich

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I scratch my head as to why female altar servers are even an issue. Pope Benedict XVI has had female altar servers in Papal masses in London (2010), Berlin, and Freiburg (2011). My purely personal feeling is that with the presence of women in these roles there is less chance of sex abuse happening to kids. It makes the Priesthood more accountable and less suspicious in this era of sexual sins of opportunity.
 
Chicago needs to take a lesson from the rioting in Ferguson. Several businesses were burned down by rioters; interestingly a white-owned gas station was left alone. Why? Because there were several young black men in front of it, armed with semi automatic weapons, and the rioters decided there were easier targets.

When asked why they were out in front of the gas station, one of the armed individuals said that the owner had been very fair, and had hired several of those protecting it, and they were not going to let rioters burn it down.

Several other businesses had civilians out in front and armed; those were also left alone - not only no burned down, but not even looted.

The police were totally unable to stop the burning and fairly helpless to stop the looters elsewhere.

Chicago tightens the laws, and the police are categorically unable to stop the carnage, all of which is being done by criminals. Given the stringency of the laws, and the seriousness of the punishments, the liberals fairy tale dream of peace through strict laws only leaves the innocent subject to the mercy of the gangs and other criminals. Liberals start the process of making laws for good reasons; they simply fail to take things to their logical conclusions.
Not living in the US I can only go by what is reported on the news here, but it seems to me that Ferguson is a unique situation of a war zone. It’s amazing that a state of emergency wasn’t declared and the military used to restore order. Leaving order and armed defense in the hands of untrained, unauthorised citizens does not seem like a good policy for community relations to me.
 
Not living in the US I can only go by what is reported on the news here, but it seems to me that Ferguson is a unique situation of a war zone. It’s amazing that a state of emergency wasn’t declared and the military used to restore order. Leaving order and armed defense in the hands of untrained, unauthorised citizens does not seem like a good policy for community relations to me.
Events like Ferguson are always hard to deal with from a gov’t perspective.

On the one hand, people have the right to peaceably assemble, and the authorities do all they can to allow that to happen without being heavy-handed.

So when you have peaceful protestors mixed with criminals and anarchists…

It’s pretty well recognized that the authorities bungled the situation from the beginning, and arrived on scene too late with too little. The National Guard had been made available but wasn’t deployed until much of the damage had been done.

As for the individuals who defended the gas station–that wasn’t the govt leaving the responsibility to private citizens, that was private citizens realizing that they had to take matters into their own hands because the authorities weren’t doing enough to help. And when the private citizens are from the community, it might be better that they **are **the ones who help.
 
Events like Ferguson are always hard to deal with from a gov’t perspective.

On the one hand, people have the right to peaceably assemble, and the authorities do all they can to allow that to happen without being heavy-handed.

So when you have peaceful protestors mixed with criminals and anarchists…

It’s pretty well recognized that the authorities bungled the situation from the beginning, and arrived on scene too late with too little. The National Guard had been made available but wasn’t deployed until much of the damage had been done.

As for the individuals who defended the gas station–that wasn’t the govt leaving the responsibility to private citizens, that was private citizens realizing that they had to take matters into their own hands because the authorities weren’t doing enough to help. And when the private citizens are from the community, it might be better that they **are **the ones who help.
Fair enough. As I say, I only know what was reported over here on the nightly news. Its like watching Belfast in the 70’s.
 
At Holy Name Cathedral Sunday, Chicago’s new Roman Catholic archbishop led his congregation in a gesture of solidarity with the protesters.
Archbishop Blase Cupich invited all to join him as he raised his hands in both prayer and a show of support. abc7chicago.com/religion/unity-marches-protests-in-chicago-sunday-/425580/
I think this was an irresponsible act by the new Archbishop. Many practicing Catholics feel that Michael Brown was a violent thug who was shot to death in self defense. This is a bit different than praying for all concerned, it very clearly appears to be choosing a particular side.
 
he wants women to feel more included in the Church, especially the Chicago Archdioceses. This is different from supporting the ordination of female priests. If he was in favor of the latter, there is no way that Cupich would have been appointed to such a high profile role.
The Archbishop has nothing to do with that. This is covered under what is commonly referred to as Vatican II’s “priesthood of the laity” document. I believe it’s “The Decree on the Apostolate of the Laity.”
 
At Holy Name Cathedral Sunday, Chicago’s new Roman Catholic archbishop led his congregation in a gesture of solidarity with the protesters.
Archbishop Blase Cupich invited all to join him as he raised his hands in both prayer and a show of support. abc7chicago.com/religion/unity-marches-protests-in-chicago-sunday-/425580/
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                                   I think this was an irresponsible act by the new Archbishop. Many practicing Catholics feel that Michael Brown was a violent thug who was shot to death in self defense. This is a bit different than praying for all concerned, it very clearly appears to be choosing a particular side.
Watch for more events coming from St. Sabina too. No doubt it was one of the reasons Cardinal George wanted to transfer that priest to another parish.

From a personal observation, living just outside of Chicago, it looks like we’re going back to the 90’s in the protest department.
 
I meant to say, I can’t see how this is not a very blatant double standard.
 
The Archbishop has made negative comments about anti-abortion protesters in the past chicagotribune.com/news/ct-blase-cupich-profile-met-0921-20140921-story.html#page=1 but so far it appears that the Archbishop has said nothing about activist priests like Fr Michael Pfleger who blocked traffic for 30 minutes yesterday nbcchicago.com/news/local/Chicago-Churches-Plan-Protests-After-Sunday-Services-285012851.html
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                                      I can't see how this is a very blatant double standard.
I can’t access the article without registering. Do you have another source?
 
You said that no one is attacking female altar servers and then you criticized Cupich for having female altar servers at his Mass. And Cupich was sending a message; he wants women to feel more included in the Church, especially the Chicago Archdioceses. This is different from supporting the ordination of female priests. If he was in favor of the latter, there is no way that Cupich would have been appointed to such a high profile role.

I think that regardless of the “official” position of the Church, many women, myself included, feel that the Church still regards us as second-class Catholics. We feel the Church disapproves of the fact that some of us choose to have careers rather than just being stay-at-home mothers or that we are pigeonholed into traditional “feminine” roles in the Church like cleaning the altar linens or teaching Sunday school to six year olds.
My friend, it’s sad to see what happens to good women after indoctrination by ultra-progressives whose goal is not the betterment of the Church. You have been deluded to see a misogynist church which doesn’t exist. If it did, don’t you think millions of us men, if only for the sake of our mothers, daughters, wives and friends, would be fighting alongside you?

St. Catherine–one of my all-time favorite women, and your namesake I assume-- was perhaps the most intelligent and insightful woman God ever gave the world (aside from His mother of course). One of her great gifts was the ability to settle disputes and heal feuds. She would not approve of exacerbating them.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m hardly in a position to preach to anyone. It’s my love of the Church that makes me bold enough to say what I do. St. Catherine, out of her great love for God, once called three Italian Cardinals who supported the anti-pope, “stench that makes the whole world reek.”
 
St. Catherine–one of my all-time favorite women, and your namesake I assume-- was perhaps the most intelligent and insightful woman God ever gave the world (aside from His mother of course). One of her great gifts was the ability to settle disputes and heal feuds. She would not approve of exacerbating them.
Are you saying that speaking out on behalf of women would rub men up the wrong way and that’s not good?

Women will always need to speak up for each other and resist the strong primal force to relegate us to second class. It has been happening since the dawn of time. Jesus advocated for the woman who touched his garment although she was ‘unclean’ with menstrual issues. That idea had no medical basis at all. It was just a way of establishing a false gender heirarchy. Christianity has at its very core the principle of gender equality and the human rights of the young and the weak.

There is evidence that in the early Church there were even women deacons. From Romans 16, St Pauls greetings letter…

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.

Greet also the church that meets at their house.
 
Are you saying that speaking out on behalf of women would rub men up the wrong way and that’s not good?** test**

Women will always need to speak up for each other and resist the strong primal force to relegate us to second class. It has been happening since the dawn of time. Jesus advocated for the woman who touched his garment although she was ‘unclean’ with menstrual issues. That idea had no medical basis at all. It was just a way of establishing a false gender heirarchy. Christianity has at its very core the principle of gender equality and the human rights of the young and the weak.

There is evidence that in the early Church there were even women deacons. From Romans 16, St Pauls greetings letter…

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.

Greet also the church that meets at their house.
 
Are you saying that speaking out on behalf of women would rub men up the wrong way and that’s not good?

Women will always need to speak up for each other and resist the strong primal force to relegate us to second class. It has been happening since the dawn of time. Jesus advocated for the woman who touched his garment although she was ‘unclean’ with menstrual issues. That idea had no medical basis at all. It was just a way of establishing a false gender heirarchy. Christianity has at its very core the principle of gender equality and the human rights of the young and the weak.

There is evidence that in the early Church there were even women deacons. From Romans 16, St Pauls greetings letter…

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.

Greet also the church that meets at their house.
Nice try. From the Vulgate:

1 Commendo autem vobis Phœben sororem nostram, quæ est in ministerio ecclesiæ, quæ est in Cenchris:

“in ministry of the Church” is too general to say she was a deacon.

There were women later who were responsible for baptizing other women but only because they used to baptize in the naked during that period. But to call them deacons the way we know them today would be quite a stretch.
 
There is evidence that in the early Church there were even women deacons.
There is more than just evidence, but:

QUOTE St. Paul does mention the woman, “Phoebe who is a deaconess of the church of Cenchreae” (Rom. 16:1). He also mentions “women” when he discusses the qualifications of a deacon in 1 Tim. 3:8-13. Because St. Paul discusses “women” in this paragraph entirely devoted to deacons, one should assume that, at the time of St. Paul, the Church did have women who were called deaconesses. But, since the words of St. Paul, “I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over men” (1 Tim. 2:12) occurs only two paragraphs earlier in the very same letter to Timothy (when St. Paul is speaking about the conduct of women in public assemblies), one must also assume that it is these very women deaconesses that St. Paul does not allow “to teach, or to exercise authority over men.” So, these deaconesses did not function the same as the men deacons who could teach and preach, and who were given authority in the Church.

Now, it is common knowledge that deaconesses in the early Church were not admitted to the hierarchical diaconate which was a sacrament and part of Holy Orders. No doubt, women sporadically preached and administered the sacraments as deacons in various places but these cases were always looked upon as abuses of Church law by misguided bishops. And, Church councils were quick to correct the abuse. END QUOTE catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3439
 
Nice try. From the Vulgate:

1 Commendo autem vobis Phœben sororem nostram, quæ est in ministerio ecclesiæ, quæ est in Cenchris:

“in ministry of the Church” is too general to say she was a deacon.

There were women later who were responsible for baptizing other women but only because they used to baptize in the naked during that period. But to call them deacons the way we know them today would be quite a stretch.
There is more than just evidence, but:

QUOTE St. Paul does mention the woman, “Phoebe who is a deaconess of the church of Cenchreae” (Rom. 16:1). He also mentions “women” when he discusses the qualifications of a deacon in 1 Tim. 3:8-13. Because St. Paul discusses “women” in this paragrap
I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over men" (1 Tim. 2:12) occurs only two paragraphs earlier in the very same letter to Timothy (when St. Paul is speaking about the conduct of women in public assemblies), one must also assume that it is these very women deaconesses that St. Paul does not allow “to teach, or to exercise authority over men.” So, these deaconesses did not function the same as the men deacons who could teach and preach, and who were given authority in the Church.

Now, it is common knowledge that deaconesses in the early Church were not admitted to the hierarchical diaconate which was a sacrament and part of Holy Orders. No doubt, women sporadically preached and administered the sacraments as deacons in various places but these cases were always looked upon as abuses of Church law by misguided bishops. And, Church councils were quick to correct the abuse. END QUOTE catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3439
Not that I’m advocating for women deacons on an ‘equal rights’ basis by any means… but the point is that in the role of ‘deacon’ in the early Church, women were performing much more responsible, important roles than today’s altar servers are which moots the argument that women are the lesser option for a role. Altar servers are more like servants than ‘teachers and preachers’.

The issue of female altar servers arose in the first place from a lack of males wanting to commit to it. The fact that the Church ie. Bishops conferences, Cardinals in communion with the Pope have given the permission for females to fill the role, has to by nature make it an equal opportunities thing. Once that permission was officially given, we could not continue to say females can serve only if there is no males available. That is a recipe for prejudice and abuses.
 
misogynist
No one said it was misogynist. There’s a fair amount of space between discrimination and misogyny.
If it did, don’t you think millions of us men, if only for the sake of our mothers, daughters, wives and friends, would be fighting alongside you?
For thousands and thousands of years men very willingly stood by and/or contributed to misogynistic cultures. That men perpetuated the misogyny doesn’t prove that it didn’t exist.

Again, I don’t recall anyone in the thread using the word misogyny, until now.
St. Catherine–one of my all-time favorite women, and your namesake I assume-- was perhaps the most intelligent and insightful woman God ever gave the world (aside from His mother of course). One of her great gifts was the ability to settle disputes and heal feuds. She would not approve of exacerbating them.
In other words, don’t argue with the establishment. Be a good girl and do as you’re told. 😛

I hope there is more to St. Catherine’s legacy than your interpretation.
 
Not that I’m advocating for women deacons on an ‘equal rights’ basis by any means… but the point is that in the role of ‘deacon’ in the early Church, women were performing much more responsible, important roles than today’s altar servers are which moots the argument that women are the lesser option for a role. Altar servers are more like servants than ‘teachers and preachers’.

The issue of female altar servers arose in the first place from a lack of males wanting to commit to it. The fact that the Church ie. Bishops conferences, Cardinals in communion with the Pope have given the permission for females to fill the role, has to by nature make it an equal opportunities thing. Once that permission was officially given, we could not continue to say females can serve only if there is no males available. That is a recipe for prejudice and abuses.
I don’t know where you come up with these tortured arguments, but your problem is not with what I say, it’s with Rome:
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/ZLITUR19.HTM

If you have an update, please post it.

What is your source for saying,“The issue of female altar servers arose in the first place from a lack of males wanting to commit to it.” ?
 
No one said it was misogynist. There’s a fair amount of space between discrimination and misogyny. Dictionaries define types of misogyny as including mistrust of women".

For thousands and thousands of years men very willingly stood by and/or contributed to misogynistic cultures. That men perpetuated the misogyny doesn’t prove that it didn’t exist. ** Sounds logical to me.:rolleyes:**

In other words, don’t argue with the establishment. Be a good girl and do as you’re told. 😛

I hope there is more to St. Catherine’s legacy than your interpretation.
Have I offended you in some way? Just leave St. Catherine out of this if you can’t be more respectful.
 
I don’t know where you come up with these tortured arguments, but your problem is not with what I say, it’s with Rome:
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/ZLITUR19.HTM

If you have an update, please post it.

What is your source for saying,“The issue of female altar servers arose in the first place from a lack of males wanting to commit to it.” ?
My source is my experience. My mother a teacher at the Catholic parish school, was also Sacramental co ordinator and trained all the altar servers for many years in the 70’s and 80’s. I remember when girls began to appear on the altar sometime in the 80’s. It was more and more difficult to get boys to come to weekday morning Masses and the were girls only too willing to fill that role as altar servers. This was being practiced with the Bishops approval and was not generally seen as a strict prohibition.

As always the ultra conservative Catholics took issue which is why the Vatican had to speak on it in 1994 I guess.

We had a case last year of the new Arch bishop in Tasmania attempting to ban female altar servers but according to the laws of the land although there’s a defence that says a religious institution can discriminate on the basis of gender if it’s required by the doctrines of the religion, the status of the altar server did not meet with this doctrinal force.
 
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