In Chicago, Pope Francis Agenda has a champion in Cupich

[on_the_hill]

“Have I offended you in some way? Just leave St. Catherine out of this if you can’t be more respectful.”

You’re the one who brought her into it as a support for your argument that people who disagree with your position ought to take a lesson from her and just go along to get along.

No, you haven’t offended me at all. I do think you’re putting a lot of effort into discrediting what you see as dangerous trends in the Church, and I think your arguments are misleading.

I’m not sure of your response to my response to your claim about men not standing up for their mothers, wives, daughters, sisters, etc. to end discriminatory/misogynistic societies.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

My friend, it’s sad to see what happens to good women after indoctrination by ultra-progressives whose goal is not the betterment of the Church. You have been deluded to see a misogynist church which doesn’t exist. If it did, don’t you think millions of us men, if only for the sake of our mothers, daughters, wives and friends, would be fighting alongside you?

St. Catherine–one of my all-time favorite women, and your namesake I assume-- was perhaps the most intelligent and insightful woman God ever gave the world (aside from His mother of course). One of her great gifts was the ability to settle disputes and heal feuds. She would not approve of exacerbating them.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m hardly in a position to preach to anyone. It’s my love of the Church that makes me bold enough to say what I do. St. Catherine, out of her great love for God, once called three Italian Cardinals who supported the anti-pope, “stench that makes the whole world reek.”

St. Catherine was criticizing popes in the 14th century and she not only got away with it but she achieved results. She was braver than most men, including high ranking Churchmen.

As for feminism, I think that modern feminism (i.e. Lena Durham) is focused solely on sex and has made feminism a dirty word but I greatly appreciate the achievements of my mom’s generation. I’m glad that I had the opportunity to play sports, take upper level science and math classes and attend business school. I’m glad that I cannot be refused a job solely because I am a woman and might become pregnant and that I cannot be sexually harassed by a co-worker.

As for the Church, I still think that there is a way to go before the Catholic Church catches up with society. This has nothing to do with Catholic men getting together in a room and thinking about how they can keep women locked up in the kitchen. However, there is subtle pressure for Catholic women to marry and have large families. While we were expected to go to college and were allowed to play sports and take physics, I do remember retreats where we (as in Catholic school girls) were encouraged to put our husbands and children first and it was inferred this meant being a housewife. Women are supposed to think about their families before their careers while men aren’t. (BTW, I think that both parents should.) it also seems like women are confined to the traditional female jobs in parishes like teaching Sunday school and managing the bake sale.

And while I don’t think the Church is misogynist, there have been some statements about women by Catholic bishops that concern me. For instance, Archbishop Gadecki of Poland said that only girls should be doing housework because boys doing housework will turn them gay. thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/183415,Top-bishop-slams-cohabitation-as-selfmutilation Because cooking and cleaning is only for girls. (Ironic that the guy also speaks out against strongly against co-habitation. You know what would probably help that problem; single men not having to rely on a girlfriend to cook or clean for them.) There was also a quite awful book published last year by the Archdiocese of Granada called Marry and Be Submissive, which included such gems as “women are not equal to men” and “women have obedience written in their DNA” as well as stating that men should be allowed to verbally abuse their wives if they don’t manage the house or cook to the husbands’ expectations.

So based on my experience as well as statements that I hear, I do feel like a second-class Catholic just because of my gender. So it feels good when my new Archbishop values women enough to include them in his installation Mass, it does make me feel included. This has nothing to do with ordination and everything to do with making women feel valued in the Church, which based for lots of reasons they don’t.

 

[on_the_hill]

Archdiocese of Granada called Marry and Be Submissive, which included such gems as “women are not equal to men” and “women have obedience written in their DNA” as well as stating that men should be allowed to verbally abuse their wives if they don’t manage the house or cook to the husbands’ expectations.

(to your whole post, not just the part I excepted)

At this evening’s Immaculate Conception Mass, our priest said in his homily, 'A woman marries a man and the two become equals. They become co-creators."

 

[on_the_hill]

For instance, Archbishop Gadecki of Poland said that only girls should be doing housework because boys doing housework will turn them gay. thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/183415,Top-bishop-slams-cohabitation-as-selfmutilation Because cooking and cleaning is only for girls.

Typical Polish attitude toward women.

(I can say that because I am of Polish heritage )

On the other hand, Cupich sounds like a Polish/East European name…

 

[KSU]

At this evening’s Immaculate Conception Mass, our priest said in his homily, 'A woman marries a man and the two become equals. They become co-creators."

At my Mass this evening, my young pastor was speaking about how indispensable Mary is to God’s entire plan for the human race, how powerful she is, what she still accomplishes every single day for her Son, how inestimable her influence is on the Church (i.e., why the Church places women on a pedestal), etc.

As he spoke about the never-ending glory God bestows on Mary, how greatly loved she is by her Son, so help me I couldn’t help but wonder about this thread. How did we allow the current confusion to come about? Despite libraries attesting to all of that plus the rich, pro-woman history of the Church, some people still are mislead into believing that the Body of Christ On Earth–Mary’s Son-- discriminates against women.

To me, what the good men and women on this board believe is less important than why they can still believe it. Who is teaching this? It seems as if Cardinal Mahony’s Religious Education Congress still exists.

 

[ProVobis]

On the other hand, Cupich sounds like a Polish/East European name…

Actually Croatian. And they made a big deal about that too on local tv.

 

[ProVobis]

So based on my experience as well as statements that I hear, I do feel like a second-class Catholic just because of my gender.

Then I suggest reading The Church Impotent, the Feminization of Christianity by Leon J. Podles.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

Then I suggest reading The Church Impotent, the Feminization of Christianity by Leon J. Podles.

I suggest I not… I suggest that Catholic priests and laymen actually treat me as an individual. This is all I want. To be not seen as only a wife and a mommy; I want to be respected as an individual, not for my uterus. Society does that finally; why can’t the Church. This is a new thing for the Church. In the Middle Ages, there were great female saints who led armies, founded important religious orders, and criticized Popes. But in the latter centuries all that good and power were taken away. During the Church of Pius XII in the 1950s we were only considered mommies and housewives. Female virginity was so prized that Maria Goretti was venerated as a martyr and little girls were expected to die rather than be raped. Why cannot we get back to the age of St. Catherine where women made valuable contributions rather than being docile mothers.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Female virginity was so prized that Maria Goretti was venerated as a martyr and little girls were expected to die rather than be raped

I’m struggling to see how anyone can be “expected” to be a martyr.

 

[yellowbird]

I was watching a part of his inauguration mass and did anybody else notice that both of the servers were female? One priest was very sure that was a calculated progrressvie gesture on his part.

Of our six mass times, my traditional parish must make a calculated progressive gesture at every noon mass. That’s when we have female servers.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

At my Mass this evening, my young pastor was speaking about how indispensable Mary is to God’s entire plan for the human race, how powerful she is, what she still accomplishes every single day for her Son, how inestimable her influence is on the Church (i.e., why the Church places women on a pedestal), etc.

As he spoke about the never-ending glory God bestows on Mary, how greatly loved she is by her Son, so help me I couldn’t help but wonder about this thread. How did we allow the current confusion to come about? Despite libraries attesting to all of that plus the rich, pro-woman history of the Church, some people still are mislead into believing that the Body of Christ On Earth–Mary’s Son-- discriminates against women.

To me, what the good men and women on this board believe is less important than why they can still believe it. Who is teaching this? It seems as if Cardinal Mahony’s Religious Education Congress still exists.

I have never gotten into Marian devotion because I was taught that Mary was docile and submissive and that I should be a good little wife and mother like her. Now, I know that there are other versions of Mary; Paul VI pointed out how subversive the Magnificent was. It talks about God casting out the mighty and rich. Sweet docile Mary was quite the class warrior.

However, despite that, my conservative introduction to Mary was that like Mary I should be docile and subservient to men. And there is nothing that suggests that I should. What is wrong with me being me? What is wrong with me being happy because the Archbishop decided to allow a few women to serve at his Mass in gratitude to the women who serve the Archdiocese.

As for the pro-woman history of the Church, I’m not sure how that squares with the evidence I gave you. If all the bishops are on board with being pro-woman, how do books like Get Married and Be Submissive get published by Archdioceses presses and why do Polish bishops demand that only women do housework. Ir seems like rather than demanding that I read the history of the Church regarding women; certain bishops read this history. Perhaps we should give Archbishop Gadeki these writings.

 

[ProVobis]

Of our six mass times, my traditional parish must make a calculated progressive gesture at every noon mass. That’s when we have female servers.

What about ushering and collection-taking? Don’t see females that often in those areas. At least I don’t, although I seem to remember one at the Cathedral when I was still attending there.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

I’m struggling to see how anyone can be “expected” to be a martyr.

Purity is worth dying for… I remember reading something from Elizabeth Smart where she said that she didn’t call for help because of her sex-ed training; she was “chewed up” gum because she was kidnapped and brutally raped. Maria Goretti was the same age as Elizabeth Smart and chose to die rather than be brutally raped. The Catholic Church venerates Maria Goretti’s choice as being more “heroic” than being a rape survivor. And this is a thing. There are three other teen girls in Maria Goretti type situations venerated as martyrs by the Catholic Church; the last was Albertina Berkenbrock who was beatified as a martyr in 2007. As a creepy sidenote, a midwife performed a post-mortem virginity test on Blessed Albertina.

 

[ProVobis]

I suggest I not…

Well, it may explain to you why 61% of a typical congregation is made up of women. Here’s an article which also may explain why.

christiancentury.org/article/2011-10/why-do-men-stay-away

What is it with men and church? We men are famously outnumbered, to be sure. According to a recent survey, we make up only 39 percent of the worshipers in a typical congregation. This is not just because we die earlier and leave the pews filled with the sturdier gender. The percentages hold across the board, for every age category.

Even when we do show up for worship, we’re often not particularly happy about it. This is not breaking news, of course. Study after study has shown that many men who name themselves as Christian feel bored, alienated and disengaged from church. When we drag ourselves to church, researchers say, it is not for ourselves but to fulfill the obligations of our roles as son, husband, father or pastor. …

Then some theories are proposed. Then he goes on.

Still, the numbers don’t lie. Men are staying away from church. The reasons are undoubtedly complex, but perhaps a clue can be found in a Christian group that attracts men and women in roughly equal numbers: Eastern Orthodoxy. A cynic might say that men are attracted to Orthodoxy because it is conservative, with an all-male clergy, many of them sporting beards. The finding of religion journalist Frederica Mathewes-Green, however, is closer to the truth. She surveyed male adult converts and discovered that Orthodoxy’s main appeal is that it’s “challenging.” One convert said, “Orthodoxy is serious. It is difficult. It is demanding. It is about mercy, but it is also about overcoming myself.” Another said that he was sick of “bourgeois, feel-good American Christianity.”

(more)

 

[KSU]

St. Catherine was criticizing popes in the 14th century and she not only got away with it but she achieved results. She was braver than most men, including high ranking Churchmen.

As for feminism, I think that modern feminism (i.e. Lena Durham) is focused solely on sex and has made feminism a dirty word but I greatly appreciate the achievements of my mom’s generation. I’m glad that I had the opportunity to play sports, take upper level science and math classes and attend business school. I’m glad that I cannot be refused a job solely because I am a woman and might become pregnant and that I cannot be sexually harassed by a co-worker.

As for the Church, I still think that there is a way to go before the Catholic Church catches up with society. This has nothing to do with Catholic men getting together in a room and thinking about how they can keep women locked up in the kitchen. However, there is subtle pressure for Catholic women to marry and have large families. While we were expected to go to college and were allowed to play sports and take physics, I do remember retreats where we (as in Catholic school girls) were encouraged to put our husbands and children first and it was inferred this meant being a housewife. Women are supposed to think about their families before their careers while men aren’t. (BTW, I think that both parents should.) it also seems like women are confined to the traditional female jobs in parishes like teaching Sunday school and managing the bake sale.

And while I don’t think the Church is misogynist, there have been some statements about women by Catholic bishops that concern me. For instance, Archbishop Gadecki of Poland said that only girls should be doing housework because boys doing housework will turn them gay. thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/183415,Top-bishop-slams-cohabitation-as-selfmutilation Because cooking and cleaning is only for girls. (Ironic that the guy also speaks out against strongly against co-habitation. You know what would probably help that problem; single men not having to rely on a girlfriend to cook or clean for them.) There was also a quite awful book published last year by the Archdiocese of Granada called Marry and Be Submissive, which included such gems as “women are not equal to men” and “women have obedience written in their DNA” as well as stating that men should be allowed to verbally abuse their wives if they don’t manage the house or cook to the husbands’ expectations.

So based on my experience as well as statements that I hear, I do feel like a second-class Catholic just because of my gender. So it feels good when my new Archbishop values women enough to include them in his installation Mass, it does make me feel included. This has nothing to do with ordination and everything to do with making women feel valued in the Church, which for lots of reasons they don’t.

I am sorry for you, my friend. I hope that God will grant you discernment. But, don’t think for a minute that you have convinced me that the reasons for your beliefs about the Church are the teachings and practices of the mean, old troglodyte Church Herself. Your beliefs are what you want them to be, and you are proud of them. Period.

Why you want to believe what you do about your Mother the Church is your business, but do you have to discredit Her in the process?

And, please don’t hold your breath until “the Catholic Church catches up with society”. That can’t ever happen, but the reverse might happen, eventually. BTW, there never again will be a Merry Old England, or the old grandeur of France and Spain, until that happens.

You give yourself away when you make statements such as,“So it feels good when my new Archbishop values women enough to include them in his installation Mass.” You know very well that probably 95% or more of the clergy include female alter servers whenever they are available; so what? You also know that the use of female alter servers in the installation Mass never was an issue in this thread–the issue up for discussion was the exclusion of male alter servers to make a progressive statement.

 

[on_the_hill]

What about ushering and collection-taking? Don’t see females that often in those areas. At least I don’t, although I seem to remember one at the Cathedral when I was still attending there.

I’d guess about half of our ushers are women.

This thread is getting ridiculous. In summary:

Blame the women.

 

[KSU]

This thread is getting ridiculous. In summary:

Blame the women.

This thread is about progressives blaming conservatives and the Church for not being progressive, e.g., not giving women power and recognition .

 

[on_the_hill]

:coffeeread: I don’t see it that way.