A
alphonsus1
Guest
I intend to finish up the off topic discussion and leave. I hope to bring the discussion back on topic.
To the poster who makes the ad-hominem about not being cut out for marriage: addictions/ passionate kissing are reasons to not get married. “Not doing enough” is not a reason to avoid marriage.
To the poster who asks why the line is drawn at engagement and not marriage: it is a prudential judgment in order to take things slowly. Since the maximum permitted before marriage is so limited (no passionate/prolonged kisses/ stopping immediately at the onset of any arousal at all), it should not be surprising that building up slowly to something that is very limited will start out with an extended period of time with no physical affection.
To the poster who asks about sensible delights, the sin is not experiencing sensible delights, it is intending or being motivated by sensible delights. Passionate kissing with someone you are attracted to is rarely chosen over other types of kisses other than because it feels better. Even if one did not have bad intentions, choosing acts that are very pleasurable (way more pleasurable than brief kisses) can quickly become one’s motivation to continue, “I want to continue because it feels good.” In this case, it is automatically an objective mortal sin since your act has an intention of pleasure. Also, even if there was no sin in the short term, as St. Alphonsus says, it is easy for one thing to lead to another thing, so in the long term there is still substantial danger from prolonged and passionate kissing. And lastly, everything just mentioned is just to avoid mortal sin. The reason I recommend brief and chaste kisses (no middle ground of moderately prolonged/ moderately passionate kisses) is because there is still likely a grey area of venial sin. These venial sins are kisses that are between brief/prolonged or between chaste/passionate. Since near occasion of sin does not just jump from no sin at all to mortal sin, if one only engages in brief and chaste kisses, then this ensures he avoids all venial sins too.
Finally, I will repeat: it is possible that two different sets of advice can simultaneously be phenomenal. For example, there are many phenomenal ways to pray. I drew the line at engagement to give a general rule consistent with Fr. Chad and the manualist Tradition. I maintain that this advice is phenomenal. However, it is not obligatory (unless it is near occasion of sin), therefore the lines can still be tailored to each individual.
Other advice can also be equally valid: waiting some fixed length of time before kissing, say 1 or 2 years, could also be phenomenal advice. The whole point of drawing a line at engagement is to encourage unmarried couples to take things slowly. People do not like this because what is permissible before marriage can subjectively feel very limited to begin with. Therefore, everyone wants to go right up to the maximum that they can morally do (brief chaste kisses) as quickly as possible. I claim this could very well be quite imprudent! Since I do not want to derail the thread, I will exit now.
To the poster who makes the ad-hominem about not being cut out for marriage: addictions/ passionate kissing are reasons to not get married. “Not doing enough” is not a reason to avoid marriage.
To the poster who asks why the line is drawn at engagement and not marriage: it is a prudential judgment in order to take things slowly. Since the maximum permitted before marriage is so limited (no passionate/prolonged kisses/ stopping immediately at the onset of any arousal at all), it should not be surprising that building up slowly to something that is very limited will start out with an extended period of time with no physical affection.
To the poster who asks about sensible delights, the sin is not experiencing sensible delights, it is intending or being motivated by sensible delights. Passionate kissing with someone you are attracted to is rarely chosen over other types of kisses other than because it feels better. Even if one did not have bad intentions, choosing acts that are very pleasurable (way more pleasurable than brief kisses) can quickly become one’s motivation to continue, “I want to continue because it feels good.” In this case, it is automatically an objective mortal sin since your act has an intention of pleasure. Also, even if there was no sin in the short term, as St. Alphonsus says, it is easy for one thing to lead to another thing, so in the long term there is still substantial danger from prolonged and passionate kissing. And lastly, everything just mentioned is just to avoid mortal sin. The reason I recommend brief and chaste kisses (no middle ground of moderately prolonged/ moderately passionate kisses) is because there is still likely a grey area of venial sin. These venial sins are kisses that are between brief/prolonged or between chaste/passionate. Since near occasion of sin does not just jump from no sin at all to mortal sin, if one only engages in brief and chaste kisses, then this ensures he avoids all venial sins too.
Finally, I will repeat: it is possible that two different sets of advice can simultaneously be phenomenal. For example, there are many phenomenal ways to pray. I drew the line at engagement to give a general rule consistent with Fr. Chad and the manualist Tradition. I maintain that this advice is phenomenal. However, it is not obligatory (unless it is near occasion of sin), therefore the lines can still be tailored to each individual.
Other advice can also be equally valid: waiting some fixed length of time before kissing, say 1 or 2 years, could also be phenomenal advice. The whole point of drawing a line at engagement is to encourage unmarried couples to take things slowly. People do not like this because what is permissible before marriage can subjectively feel very limited to begin with. Therefore, everyone wants to go right up to the maximum that they can morally do (brief chaste kisses) as quickly as possible. I claim this could very well be quite imprudent! Since I do not want to derail the thread, I will exit now.
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