In first video message, Pope Francis stresses unity: 'We are all children of God' [CNA]

[graciew]

Love, sometimes. Sometimes something far less, but I want it to always be love.

Which is why I want us to be one like the Son and Father.
John 17:21 RSV

I love my family, I love all the people I’ve ever met. I wouldn’t want anything less for them then the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

That is kind. Me too,I love my family a lot.

What makes you believe that cradle Catholics have left nothing behind to follow Jesus ?
The Pope included…

 

[TMC]

There is no “catholic religion”. Catholicism is not just one religion among others, there is no comparison. Of course I became Catholic to become close to Jesus, my father was a United Methodist minister; I felt extremely close to my family and tradition, I gave it up to be close to Christ in the Eucharistic.

But when Pope Francis makes statements like this I think to myself, am I anymore closer to Christ then when I was Methodist?

But if you believe Christ founded the Catholic Church as the One True Church, if you believe the Eucharist is truly the Real Presence of God, if you believe Hell is a real place then let me ask you a question.

Why are you satisfied with my family not getting the real presence of Christ? Why are you satisfied with my family not having the same relationship to Christ that you and I do through the sacraments?

Maybe its because you are a cradle catholic and always took being in the Church for granted?

Maybe you shouldn’t question people’s motivates for joining the Church?

I am unclear as to why you are upset. Should the Pope lie and say that non-Catholics are going to hell just so that Catholics can feel better about themselves? Shouldn’t we promote truth and understanding, rather then sowing division?

 

[CompSciGuy]

I am unclear as to why you are upset. Should the Pope lie and say that non-Catholics are going to hell just so that Catholics can feel better about themselves? Shouldn’t we promote truth and understanding, rather then sowing division?

If he said there is no salvation outside the church, then it would not be a lie. The question of culpability is the determining factor in the situation of our families who are not Catholic. The Catechism says that the Church may include those who earnestly and sincerely seek God but are ignorant of the Church through no fault of their own. However, if that is the case, then it would be a disservice to lend the impression that all religions lead to God, or that they are equal. The Catechism still maintains there is no salvation outside the Church… To create the image shown in the OP, where there is an infant Christ alongside a Bhudda and a Menorah, this image strongly implies that the Church is just one of many ways to God, which is the real lie that ought to be fought. Even if that is not the intended message, that is what is being conveyed, and the devil will use that however he can.

 

[FollowChrist34]

If he said there is no salvation outside the church, then it would not be a lie. The question of culpability is the determining factor in the situation of our families who are not Catholic. The Catechism says that the Church may include those who earnestly and sincerely seek God but are ignorant of the Church through no fault of their own. However, if that is the case, then it would be a disservice to lend the impression that all religions lead to God, or that they are equal. The Catechism still maintains there is no salvation outside the Church… To create the image shown in the OP, where there is an infant Christ alongside a Bhudda and a Menorah, this image strongly implies that the Church is just one of many ways to God, which is the real lie that ought to be fought. Even if that is not the intended message, that is what is being conveyed, and the devil will use that however he can.

Correct - this is the “spirit” in which I choose to take this.

 

[SpeakInSilence]

I am unclear as to why you are upset. Should the Pope lie and say that non-Catholics are going to hell just so that Catholics can feel better about themselves? Shouldn’t we promote truth and understanding, rather then sowing division?

No, of course we should dialogue and work with other religious groups, but one would be creating a false dichotomy between truth and pastoral practice if they believe the alternative to what the Pope seems to be saying is, “say that non-catholics are going to hell.”

I don’t like the tone of the video that essentially says, “All religions are legitimate pathways to love.”

God is Love, and only through Christ can we know God.

 

[SpeakInSilence]

That is kind. Me too,I love my family a lot.

What makes you believe that cradle Catholics have left nothing behind to follow Jesus ?
The Pope included…

I would not say cradle catholics haven’t left behind anything, but you can’t experience something that it’s impossible for you to experience.

An man born in America would never know what it was like to experience being born in Japan.

 

[TMC]

No, of course we should dialogue and work with other religious groups, but one would be creating a false dichotomy between truth and pastoral practice if they believe the alternative to what the Pope seems to be saying is, “say that non-catholics are going to hell.”

I don’t like the tone of the video that essentially says, “All religions are legitimate pathways to love.”

God is Love, and only through Christ can we know God.

So you agree with the substance of the Pope’s communication but think it is too nice in tone?

It seems to me that a lot of Catholics want to be constantly told that being Catholic is the best and all other religions are bad. I don’t think that kind of self congratulatory rhetoric is helpful or appropriate. The fact is that the Church teaches that those of other religions can be saved. It almost seems like some would prefer that were not the case.

 

[LordHaveMercy]

I am unclear as to why you are upset. Should the Pope lie and say that non-Catholics are going to hell just so that Catholics can feel better about themselves? Shouldn’t we promote truth and understanding, rather then sowing division?

I can’t say why SpeakinSilence is upset, but I can say why the video is problematic. I am a convert, and I became Catholic despite the disunity it created in my family, despite having to leave behind the Methodist community I was raised in and despite the often extreme discomfort of the entire process. Fortunately, I knew that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. So, to put it bluntly, I knew that if I chose to stay in my non-Catholic comfort zone, I would be chosing that over an eternity with God. I shudder to think of what would have happened if I had seen a video with Catholic clergymen holding an image of Jesus next to symbols of other religions, because I would have interpreted that as a blessing for my non-Catholic religion, and thought that I could skip over the discomfort of converting because “love is all that matters anyway.”

 

[FollowChrist34]

So you agree with the substance of the Pope’s communication but think it is too nice in tone?

It seems to me that a lot of Catholics want to be constantly told that being Catholic is the best and all other religions are bad. I don’t think that kind of self congratulatory rhetoric is helpful or appropriate. The fact is that the Church teaches that those of other religions can be saved. It almost seems like some would prefer that were not the case.

We rarely agree as I recall but I am with you here. Aquinas thought that ancient Greek philosophers were (dimly) inspired by the wisdom of God; he took much from Aristotle and Plato - this in turn is the basis of central elements of Catholic theology today.

If we can grant that Aristotle had the light of God somehow to some degree, what on earth has happened to our capacity to see that in other Christians or those in other religions who engage in ethics, virtue and acts of love?

 

[graciew]

I would not say cradle catholics haven’t left behind anything, but you can’t experience something that it’s impossible for you to experience.

An man born in America would never know what it was like to experience being born in Japan.

But you can. You said you love most everyone you meet and I believe you. And really appreciate that attitude,it is uplifting and kind.
You are looking through differences and into their human heart and condition and that is a loving starting point.
And oh yes,we cannot experience exactly what other people but we can recognize suffering and joy and feel empathy.
Maybe that is grace. And it pulls us together ,doesn’t t it.? God holds us all in the palm of His hand. I love that.

 

[TCEL]

We’ve heard it said that the Church grows by attraction and this is true. But sometimes it seems even our leaders can be confused about what this entails on our part. The words and actions that attract smiles and nods of approval from the world are not always the same as those that attract individuals to take up their cross and follow Christ. Sometimes they can even repel. The testimony of converts in this very thread bears witness to this.

My husband is a convert to Catholicism. I don’t get the feeling that recent headlines are helping our relationships with his family. They are misinformed on a lot of things Catholic, and the waters seem muddier than before.

 

[cjforJesus]

I understand the point of the video in that we are all made in the image and likeness of God,but the martyrs of the Church DIED for the faith.They died rather than deny Jesus Christ.

Interreligious dialogue promotes well being and peace but religion is NOT the cause of wars or atrocities. Two of the worst mass killings in history.the Holocaust and the Rawanda genocide were not based on religion but hatred.

 

[CompSciGuy]

So you agree with the substance of the Pope’s communication but think it is too nice in tone?

It seems to me that a lot of Catholics want to be constantly told that being Catholic is the best and all other religions are bad. I don’t think that kind of self congratulatory rhetoric is helpful or appropriate. The fact is that the Church teaches that those of other religions can be saved. It almost seems like some would prefer that were not the case.

Straw man argument. No, what good Catholics want is for the pope, the bishops and all Catholics to proclaim the gospel: that Jesus is Lord, that he is the way the truth and the life, and noone comes to the Father but by him, and that he calls all men to repentance through the forgiveness of their sins. This is not asking too much.

 

[TMC]

Straw man argument. No, what good Catholics want is for the pope, the bishops and all Catholics to proclaim the gospel: that Jesus is Lord, that he is the way the truth and the life, and noone comes to the Father but by him, and that he calls all men to repentance through the forgiveness of their sins. This is not asking too much.

This is what they are doing. What I am hearing here, is that some Catholics don’t like it when the Pope also recognizes the good in non-Catholics, and when he promotes collegial dialogue with other religions.

If you are asking that the Church say that those of other faiths cannot be saved, that is asking too much because that is not what the Church teaches. Why is it wrong to recognize that truth? Why is it wrong to celebrate the good found in others?

 

[CompSciGuy]

This is what they are doing. What I am hearing here, is that some Catholics don’t like it when the Pope also recognizes the good in non-Catholics, and when he promotes collegial dialogue with other religions.

If you are asking that the Church say that those of other faiths cannot be saved, that is asking too much because that is not what the Church teaches. Why is it wrong to recognize that truth? Why is it wrong to celebrate the good found in others?

Again, straw man arguments on all counts. First, the Catechism does say that noone outside the Church can be saved. The question is one of culpability. Only those who through no fault of their own have never known or understood the gospel or teaching of the Church may be counted among the flock. This is a far cry from saying that non-Catholics in general will go to heaven.

Secondly, where in the gospel does it say that we should elevate false gods to the same level as the one true God? This is not the same recognizing good in others and it does nothing to further the gospel. Let me ask you something. The title of the pope is the Vicar of what? Of world peace? Of diversity and tolerance? No! It is the Vicar of CHRIST. Not of Christ and Buddah and Mohammad, but of Christ.

Finally hear this. There are many who believe that the Catholic Church teaches universalism and religious indifferentism, that all paths to God are good and acceptable. This is a lie. But many believe it. Now consider this. No matter what the Church’s intention was with this video, can you honestly say that if a person who had this misconception saw this video it would not serve only to confirm them in their misconceptions?

 

[LordHaveMercy]

This is what they are doing. What I am hearing here, is that some Catholics don’t like it when the Pope also recognizes the good in non-Catholics, and when he promotes collegial dialogue with other religions.

If you are asking that the Church say that those of other faiths cannot be saved, that is asking too much because that is not what the Church teaches. Why is it wrong to recognize that truth? Why is it wrong to celebrate the good found in others?

We aren’t asking the Church to say that those of other faiths cannot be saved, but it is still a dogma of the faith that there is No Salvation Outside the Church, so we should not stop praying for their conversion and we should not do anything that may delay or prevent them from converting.

We are also asking that Church leaders not hold up an image of the Savior next to symbols of three false religions in a way that visually suggests that all four items are of equal or even remotely similar value.

 

[CompSciGuy]

We aren’t asking the Church to say that those of other faiths cannot be saved, but it is still a dogma of the faith that there is No Salvation Outside the Church, so we should not stop praying for their conversion and we should not do anything that may delay or prevent them from converting.

We are also asking that Church leaders not hold up an image of the Savior next to symbols of three false religions in a way that visually suggests that all four items are of equal or even remotely similar value.

This.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

SpeakInSilence

True, faiths comes through God and everything you have is a gift from God, but what you are saying sounds almost Calvinistic, like we have NO influence on the faith of ours.

Faith come from God, it is the revelation of Himself to us, however that may happen.

CCC
166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

The faith one receives from others, is faith that was given to them, no what they’ve created on their own.

CCC

IN BRIEF

176 Faith is a personal adherence of the whole man to God who reveals himself. It involves an assent of the intellect and will

Actually it does, a lot. What we say, do, and think have influence over others because a lot of the times we are the instruments of God.

But what we do and say that brings another to faith in God, is what was given to us.

We are witnesses to Christ only because Christ gave us the gift of faith to begin with.
The transformation of our being toward holiness, is from his transforming grace.

So Oral Roberts helped you with you faith, and helped you return to the Catholic Church?
Great! I believe my methodism prepared me to be Catholic. But It would be scandalous however for you to think Oral Roberts is comparable to Mother Church, and rely on his teachings. Or for me to think John Wesley is comparable to the Popes.

Oral Roberts presented Jesus to me, but it was Jesus who revealed himself to me when I received the gift of faith. Oral Roberts was comparable to the Church in some aspects, but lacked the fullness of revealed truth, which only the Catholic Church has.

This is in essence what Pope Francis is saying. We are united in the levels of faith we have in common, but the basic truth is that we are all children of God.

To know Christ is to see him in everyone and everything,

It is our DUTY as Christians to proclaim the Kingship of Christ to all people.

Its our duty to be witnesses to Jesus Christ. This doesn’t mean we can give faith to others, only God can do this.

It is not prideful thinking that you are the way God converts, or sometimes dispenses his grace.

Actually if you think it is you who are converting people, it is very much prideful thinking which we must detach ourselves from.

The CCC 900 says, “Since, like all the faithful, lay Christians are entrusted by God with the apostolate by virtue of their Baptism and Confirmation, they have the right and duty, individually or grouped in associations, to work so that the divine message of salvation may be known and accepted by all men throughout the earth”

And how we work so that the divine message of salvation is presented is often the problem.

People who are new to faith tend to be aggressive and duallistic in the way they witness.
They see themselves separated from the discursive others who will be damned if they don’t convert.

As the author of the Cloud of Unknowing said, "God can not be grasped except through love.’

Jim

 

[cjforJesus]

SpeakInSilence

Faith come from God, it is the revelation of Himself to us, however that may happen.

The faith one receives from others, is faith that was given to them, no what they’ve created on their own.

CCC

But what we do and say that brings another to faith in God, is what was given to us.

We are witnesses to Christ only because Christ gave us the gift of faith to begin with.
The transformation of our being toward holiness, is from his transforming grace.

Oral Roberts presented Jesus to me, but it was Jesus who revealed himself to me when I received the gift of faith. Oral Roberts was comparable to the Church in some aspects, but lacked the fullness of revealed truth, which only the Catholic Church has.

This is in essence what Pope Francis is saying. We are united in the levels of faith we have in common, but the basic truth is that we are all children of God.

To know Christ is to see him in everyone and everything,

Its our duty to be witnesses to Jesus Christ. This doesn’t mean we can give faith to others, only God can do this.

Actually if you think it is you who are converting people, it is very much prideful thinking which we must detach ourselves from.

And how we work so that the divine message of salvation is presented is often the problem.

People who are new to faith tend to be aggressive and duallistic in the way they witness.
They see themselves separated from the discursive others who will be damned if they don’t convert.

As the author of the Cloud of Unknowing said, "God can not be grasped except through love.’

Jim

How do you explain the holy martyrs? What would make someone actually die than deny their faith?

The author of “The Cloud” comes to the conclusion that after all the negations what is left is you. You are the only image of God there is.

 

[TMC]

Again, straw man arguments on all counts. First, the Catechism does say that noone outside the Church can be saved. The question is one of culpability. Only those who through no fault of their own have never known or understood the gospel or teaching of the Church may be counted among the flock. This is a far cry from saying that non-Catholics in general will go to heaven.

Secondly, where in the gospel does it say that we should elevate false gods to the same level as the one true God? This is not the same recognizing good in others and it does nothing to further the gospel. Let me ask you something. The title of the pope is the Vicar of what? Of world peace? Of diversity and tolerance? No! It is the Vicar of CHRIST. Not of Christ and Buddah and Mohammad, but of Christ.

Finally hear this. There are many who believe that the Catholic Church teaches universalism and religious indifferentism, that all paths to God are good and acceptable. This is a lie. But many believe it. Now consider this. No matter what the Church’s intention was with this video, can you honestly say that if a person who had this misconception saw this video it would not serve only to confirm them in their misconceptions?

I see nothing wrong with this video. Nothing. And I have not heard that any non-Catholics are being mislead. What I am hearing is Catholics complaining that the Pope is somehow offending them by being too accepting of others.