We aren’t asking the Church to say that those of other faiths cannot be saved, but it is still a dogma of the faith that there is No Salvation Outside the Church, so we should not stop praying for their conversion and we should not do anything that may delay or prevent them from converting.
We are also asking that Church leaders not hold up an image of the Savior next to symbols of three false religions in a way that visually suggests that all four items are of equal or even remotely similar value.
Seriously? Your faith is challenged by the acknowledgment that other faiths exist? Seeing the symbols of other faiths near in proximity to a statue of the Christ child is stopping people from converting? You can’t seriously believe that.This.
I’m truly shocked that after so many messages you’re “hearing Catholics complaining that the Pope is somehow offending them by being too accepting of others.” Because not a single person has said anything even remotely similar to that in this entire discussion, except for you.I see nothing wrong with this video. Nothing. And I have not heard that any non-Catholics are being mislead. What I am hearing is Catholics complaining that the Pope is somehow offending them by being too accepting of others.
No. I never once even almost hinted that in the slightest or most remote way my faith was challenged by any of this at all, period. Close the book. You said that, not me.Seriously? Your faith is challenged by the acknowledgment that other faiths exist? Seeing the symbols of other faiths near in proximity to a statue of the Christ child is stopping people from converting? You can’t seriously believe that.
There is a distinct annoyance at the Pope that he is not preaching to their liking. I think that one of the hardest things for converts to finally accept is the guidance of the Pope even when it puts one out of their comfort zone. It happened also when Pope StJPII instigated the first World Day of Prayer in 1986. Pictures like this one in an Assisi Church made people horrified.I’m truly shocked that after so many messages you’re “hearing Catholics complaining that the Pope is somehow offending them by being too accepting of others.” Because not a single person has said anything even remotely similar to that in this entire discussion, except for you.
But remember that Jesus said before He comes the antichrist will come and there will be almost no faith left. Jesus will also return as He left and He will arrive with a host of angels and ALL will know Him even those who pierced Him.I look at it in the light of the Churchs increased focus on ‘eschatology’ ie. the study of last things. Pope Francis himself lives his life as though he may die tomorrow and with urgency to promote the values of the end times. Contemporary Jewish scholars and theologians are also in the mode of focusing on ‘the days of the Messiah’.
According to Jewish tradition, the messianic era will be one of global harmony, a future era of universal peace and brotherhood on earth, and one conducive to the furtherment of the knowledge of the Creator. In this context, the earliest meaning of the word “messianic” is derived from notion of Yemot HaMashiach meaning “the days of the Messiah”, meaning “related to the Jewish Messiah”. The Jewish Messiah ushering in an era of universal peace is given expression in two scriptural passages from the Book of Isaiah:
They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare. (Isaiah 2:4)
The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the viper’s nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on my entire holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. (Isaiah 11:6-9)
According to the Book of Jeremiah, Moab and Biblical Elam which were exiled during the Babylonian Exile, will be brought back from their captivity in the end of days.[25]
In the Book of Jeremiah, it is referenced by Jeremiah, who, speaking in the days of Josiah (Jer. 3:16), prophesied a future time, possibly the end of days, when the Ark will no longer be talked about or be made again:
“And it shall be that when you multiply and become fruitful in the land, in those days - the word of the LORD - they will no longer say, ‘The Ark of the Covenant of the LORD’ and it will not come to mind; they will not mention it, and will not recall it, and it will not be used any more.” - Jeremiah 3:16
Rashi comments on this verse that “The entire people will be so imbued with the spirit of sanctity that God’s Presence will rest upon them collectively, as if the congregation itself was the Ark of the Covenant.”[26]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology
I feel very comfortable with the Popes guidance since to be able to recognise the coming Christ, we need to accept the unity prophesied as the environment of the end times.
For perspective, I think of the difficulty the Pharisees had with recognising the Messiah before them. So limited by their loyalty to temporal aspects of tradition were they that they just couldn’t except this character who bore no resemblence to the Messiah they had created in their own minds.
It makes sense that all people that seek God will have the capacity to recognise the coming Christ and His unifying spirit. Wanting to cling to division and separateness in that time may be the downfall of many with a rigid concept of Christ.
Then you are not paying attention. Have you heard none of the headlines about how Pope Francis is making “sweeping changes” to Church doctrine?I see nothing wrong with this video. Nothing. And I have not heard that any non-Catholics are being mislead.
Will you quit with the straw man arguments. This isn’t about people being offended. This is about a video which, either intentionally or unintentionally, minimizes Christ in the context of all world religions.What I am hearing is Catholics complaining that the Pope is somehow offending them by being too accepting of others.
You mean when popes do things that appear very strongly to be idolatrous and go against the scriptures? Like kissing a statue of the Buddha? Gee, why would anyone be upset about that.There is a distinct annoyance at the Pope that he is not preaching to their liking. I think that one of the hardest things for converts to finally accept is the guidance of the Pope even when it puts one out of their comfort zone.
Really? So what do posters mean when they lament that they don’t like the Pope’s message, and complain that it does not respect all that they did to become/remain Catholic. Maybe offended is not the right term, but complaining certainly is.I’m truly shocked that after so many messages you’re “hearing Catholics complaining that the Pope is somehow offending them by being too accepting of others.” Because not a single person has said anything even remotely similar to that in this entire discussion, except for you.
Wait, didn’t you just tell me that I made up that bit about being offended?No. I never once even almost hinted that in the slightest or most remote way my faith was challenged by any of this at all, period. Close the book. You said that, not me.
As I said, seeing symbols of false religions held next to an image of Our Lord, especially in a way that suggests “we are all believers, we all believe in something, we all believe in love, we all brought a symbol of our religion, see how it’s all the same? None of these is somehow different from or superior to the other.” is offensive and misleading.
This is not a matter of personal preference. It’s not some weird personal flaw that causes someone to findsit offensive to place the true religion the same platform as false religions in a video that is being spread all over the world.There is a distinct annoyance at the Pope that he is not preaching to their liking.
If this is not about being offended, why are people saying they are offended?Then you are not paying attention. Have you heard none of the headlines about how Pope Francis is making “sweeping changes” to Church doctrine?
Will you quit with the straw man arguments. This isn’t about people being offended. This is about a video which, either intentionally or unintentionally, minimizes Christ in the context of all world religions.
In light of all the posts you have made, let me ask you something. Do you follow Catholicism merely out of a sense of religious “taste” or preference? Or do you do it because you believe the Catholic Church holds the truth?
I’m glad we can agree once in while, at least.We rarely agree as I recall but I am with you here. Aquinas thought that ancient Greek philosophers were (dimly) inspired by the wisdom of God; he took much from Aristotle and Plato - this in turn is the basis of central elements of Catholic theology today.
If we can grant that Aristotle had the light of God somehow to some degree, what on earth has happened to our capacity to see that in other Christians or those in other religions who engage in ethics, virtue and acts of love?
TMC, my dear brother/sister, you very clearly said people are complaining because the Pope offended them “by being too accepting of others” and, while people are indeed offended, nobody has said anything that hints that it’s because the pope is too accepting of other people.Wait, didn’t you just tell me that I made up that bit about being offended?
Now friend, I have/will never say that any action can destroy evangelism, those are your words not mine. I do believe a video that shuffles through parallel statements made by leaders of four religions, shows symbols of the four religions in a way that none of the symbols is given preference over the others (visually), and concludes with a statement that the important thing is that we all believe in ‘love’ would lead a reasonable viewer to think that it doesn’t matter what religions you follow as long as you remember ‘love.’If you really believe that a picture of two symbols near one another is destroying evangelism, I suppose you are entitled to that opinion. I don’t see it.
Well, that is the sense I got. Reading back through the thread, I am not sure I am wrong.TMC, my dear brother/sister, you very clearly said people are complaining because the Pope offended them “by being too accepting of others” and, while people are indeed offended, nobody has said anything that hints that it’s because the pope is too accepting of other people.
Now friend, I have/will never say that any action can destroy evangelism, those are your words not mine. I do believe a video that shuffles through parallel statements made by leaders of four religions, shows symbols of the four religions in a way that none of the symbols is given preference over the others (visually), and concludes with a statement that the important thing is that we all believe in ‘love’ would lead a reasonable viewer to think that it doesn’t matter what religions you follow as long as you remember ‘love.’
If the video can apeace the violence there is by having 4 religious persons humbly share their faith as an offering for peace and unity , may God grant us the grace to be grateful .TMC, my dear brother/sister, you very clearly said people are complaining because the Pope offended them “by being too accepting of others” and, while people are indeed offended, nobody has said anything that hints that it’s because the pope is too accepting of other people.
Now friend, I have/will never say that any action can destroy evangelism, those are your words not mine. I do believe a video that shuffles through parallel statements made by leaders of four religions, shows symbols of the four religions in a way that none of the symbols is given preference over the others (visually), and concludes with a statement that the important thing is that we all believe in ‘love’ would lead a reasonable viewer to think that it doesn’t matter what religions you follow as long as you remember ‘love.’
Not sure I understand your question.How do you explain the holy martyrs? What would make someone actually die than deny their faith?
The author of “The Cloud” comes to the conclusion that after all the negations what is left is you. You are the only image of God there is.
We Catholics no longer talk of ‘false religions’ or schismatics or heretics when talking about others who believe in a divine Creator. The word false is attributed to those who put something before God in an idolatrous way like money or power or satanist practices. We can recognise the human quest for a relationship with a divine good is at the heart of all searches for God. That means recognising that quest in Jewish, Islamic and Buddhist symbols of God and building on the unity there to fight against the real anti godly idols.This is not a matter of personal preference. It’s not some weird personal flaw that causes someone to findsit offensive to place the true religion the same platform as false religions in a video that is being spread all over the world.
This may seem off-topic, but I’m really hoping you’ll see why that picture with Our Lord being held next to those other symbols is problematic. Let’s pretend they weren’t holding religious items, but instead imagine them holding the 4 non-religious items listed in each of the examples below. In each grouping, your mission is to spread the truth about item number 4 to those who are not familiar with item number 4, what conclusion would you expect a reasonable person to draw in these examples:
Those who have pointed out the problems with this video are not trying to enforce their personal preference on anyone, they’re just saying that this example is problematic and offensive:
- Picture of Stalin
- Picture of Osama Bin Ladin
- Picture of Hitler
- Picture of George Washington
- A pinch of salt
- A pinch of sugar
- A pinch of flour
- A pinch of cocaine
- A Nazi keychain
- A KKK bumper sticker
- An ISIS t-shirt
- A Catholic Charities button
- A glass of water
- A glass of vegetable juice
- A glass of milk
- A glass of bleach
While we disagree on this, be assured of my prayers and well wishes.
- Symbol of a false religion
- Symbol of a false religion
- Symbol of a false religion
- Image of Jesus Christ.