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In first video message, Pope Francis stresses unity: 'We are all children of God' [CNA]
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TCEL
Guest
I’m going to say this again. I’m sympathetic to the converts because my husband is one, and his family is not. Again, I totally understand how recent headlines muddy the waters for many Protestants of a certain inclination. I even agree with some of their concerns. But, I think the antidote is to not blow this out of proportion. I watched the video last night just to be sure, and I didn’t get the impression that Pope Francis thinks people don’t need Jesus. St. Paul spoke about the statue to the unknown god with the Greeks, because he was finding a commonality. That’s what Pope Francis is doing. When the disagreements are profound, we have to start pretty basic.
If people think Pope Francis’ approach means we can stop at our commonalities, I think that’s a mistaken interpretation. He is charging us to dialogue based on our common humanity, since God created us all to know, love, and serve Him. Obviously, he is not calling us to dialogue based on our shared faith in Christ, because we are not all brothers and sisters in Christ. I understand that people feel like Pope Francis isn’t going far enough. I feel that way sometimes. But I can testify from my life-differences are so profound that if I started with Christ with some people, it would shut conversation down because they are hostile. On the other hand, people aren’t hostile to God, but they are wary of Catholicism, and again, finding commonalities is the more fruitful way I have found. A lot of people don’t have overnight conversions. Much of all this boils down to prudence, and I don’t think Pope Francis would stop someone from sharing Christ in a way that is effective for Christ.
If people think Pope Francis’ approach means we can stop at our commonalities, I think that’s a mistaken interpretation. He is charging us to dialogue based on our common humanity, since God created us all to know, love, and serve Him. Obviously, he is not calling us to dialogue based on our shared faith in Christ, because we are not all brothers and sisters in Christ. I understand that people feel like Pope Francis isn’t going far enough. I feel that way sometimes. But I can testify from my life-differences are so profound that if I started with Christ with some people, it would shut conversation down because they are hostile. On the other hand, people aren’t hostile to God, but they are wary of Catholicism, and again, finding commonalities is the more fruitful way I have found. A lot of people don’t have overnight conversions. Much of all this boils down to prudence, and I don’t think Pope Francis would stop someone from sharing Christ in a way that is effective for Christ.
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TMC
Guest
I will be happy to cool down if you will agree to switch off the condescension. Thanks.
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Robert_Bay
Guest
MODERATOR REMINDER
Please post charitably
Please charitably discuss the issues, not each other
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Please post charitably
Please charitably discuss the issues, not each other
Please return to the topic of the original post
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TMC
Guest
Let me try to explain my annoyance with this thread more cogently.
On this forum I constantly encounter Catholics that want a constant affirmation that, not only are they “right”, but that all other religions are “wrong.” They also often want affirmation that being Catholic will result in a greater reward, i.e. a better chance at salvation. I only rarely hear this from Catholics in real life, but it is common here.
The reaction to the Pope saying that atheists and non-Christians can be save should be rejoicing, not annoyance. Why is it bad to think that more people will be saved? The base problem is the attitude that religion is an investment made now to get a better life later (in the after life). People get annoyed when they hear that others that they view as making lesser or less wise investments are getting the same result. But religion is not about trying to maximize returns for the next life. It is about living well and properly in this life, confident in the hope that doing so will result in what is best for EVERYONE. But many Catholics seem to need believe that they are getting a greater reward, or at least that others are doing something wrong. This is the error of the parable of the vineyard.
Faith is about doing the right things in this life. Everyone who is trying their best to do that is doing something right, which I believe is the Pope’s point. That should be recognized and celebrated.
On this forum I constantly encounter Catholics that want a constant affirmation that, not only are they “right”, but that all other religions are “wrong.” They also often want affirmation that being Catholic will result in a greater reward, i.e. a better chance at salvation. I only rarely hear this from Catholics in real life, but it is common here.
The reaction to the Pope saying that atheists and non-Christians can be save should be rejoicing, not annoyance. Why is it bad to think that more people will be saved? The base problem is the attitude that religion is an investment made now to get a better life later (in the after life). People get annoyed when they hear that others that they view as making lesser or less wise investments are getting the same result. But religion is not about trying to maximize returns for the next life. It is about living well and properly in this life, confident in the hope that doing so will result in what is best for EVERYONE. But many Catholics seem to need believe that they are getting a greater reward, or at least that others are doing something wrong. This is the error of the parable of the vineyard.
Faith is about doing the right things in this life. Everyone who is trying their best to do that is doing something right, which I believe is the Pope’s point. That should be recognized and celebrated.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
I would add, faith brings us closer toward union with Jesus Christ and depending on His grace, as close as we can get in this life.
That alone is the reward of being a Catholic Christian.
However, non-Catholics too can experience a level of faith and they too have glimpses of the heavenly reward that God’s grace gives them.
They may not experience the richness that we do in our religion, but we should see that as their poverty, no their damnation.
Whatever we have received, comes from God and His mercy and love isn’t limited to those of us who happened to have chosen the right religion.
Jim
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
I really appreciate these quotes, friend. I am enjoying this discussion and find it very edifying, I hope you do as well.
Of course! Definitely related in various ways.
While these issues may seem peripheral to our discussion topic, these words are specifically prompted by my goal of explaining why the video is problematic, so my intention is to be “on topic” with this post. Again, enjoying this conversation.
Of course! Definitely related in various ways.
This doesn’t really contradict anything I’ve said. It shines light on the mystery of salvation, which is just great.
I would say nothing in this contradicts what I’ve said either. It says that Christians are waiting for the return of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and that Jews are waiting for the first coming of a Messiah, “whose features remain hidden till the end of time.” That Messiah does not exist, because Jesus Christ is the Messiah and his features are not hidden, and he has already come, in the past.
This is the quote I’m somewhat skeptical about, and am actually comfortable disagreeing with the Catechism on this point. I’m certainly open to correction, but hear me out. The Magisterium is the safeguard of the deposit of faith, and the Holy Spirit will guide the Magisterium until the end of time, so I do not and will not question anything Magisterial. However, can a statement about the faith and/or morals of another religion ever be Magisterial? does the Holy Spirit protect the Magisterium from teaching errors about Islam? This certainly cannot be a ‘matter of faith’ because public revelation ended before Islam was ever invented. Does that make sense?
While these issues may seem peripheral to our discussion topic, these words are specifically prompted by my goal of explaining why the video is problematic, so my intention is to be “on topic” with this post. Again, enjoying this conversation.
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cjforJesus
Guest
CCC
The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus. St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old.” St. Paul echoes him: “For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?” The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”, will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”.
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
Bingo! Reading that statement makes it clear that Jews and Gentiles alike are fully included in the work of the Messiah, we all have the same Savior, and through baptism and His Church we participate in his redemptive work.
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Jon_Mallory
Guest
I think we can all agree that there are elements of truths in all religions but the fullness of the faith resides in the Catholic Church. Hence, we should evangelize members of other religions to Catholicism. It is not we who convert but the Holy Spirit working through our actions. Not all religions are equally valid/true. The apostles did not tell the Jews that that they are fine where they are and that they have no need to convert to Christianity. If the Apostles preached this message, they probably wouldn’t have gotten stoned.
Also, I am disturbed that some people here accept what Pope Francis says just because he is the Pope. The gift of infallibility does not mean that every thing the Pope says is true. It only applies when he speaks ex cathedra. Past Popes have been criticized.
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adrift
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1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word
1215 This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”
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LaramieHirsch
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This video is unsettling.
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abucs
Guest
Forgive me for not reading the thread entirely but i would be surprised if anyone wrote that they are going to get a better reward in the next life simply because they identify as Catholic.
Perhaps the concern of the people you criticise has more to do with the frustration and life experiences that the logic of a ‘universal equality of religions’ ideology is enticing others to make really bad choices in their spiritual journey?
As mentioned previously, i applaud the pope’s video prayer message,
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Beautiful
Guest
- Pope Francis is directing this request to all Catholics.
- It is true that most of the earth’s inhabitants are believers of something - a wide range of religions.
- It is true that we all seek and meet God in different ways. This is true even among Catholics.
- These differences can and should lead to dialogue. If it doesn’t lead to dialogue then we should pray especially for those who resist.
- Catholics should know we are all children of God.
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Beautiful
Guest
Think about this folks. This video message/prayer request is a first in many ways. It is very well made and the request is reasonable and heartfelt. If you feel unsettled about what you heard, ask God to help you see why.
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adrift
Guest
Think about this folks. This video message/prayer request is a first in many ways. It is very well made and the request is reasonable and heartfelt. If you feel unsettled about what you heard, ask God to help you see why.
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irenaeus1
Guest
I know exactly why I feel unsettled… and precisely because of what God has revealed to us in His Son. Otherwise, I would have no problem with the video.
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Jon_Mallory
Guest
As Catholics, we are obligated to believe that muslims worship the same God as Christians as said in Lumen Gentium. Theologically, they are not identical but at least they know there is only one God. If only Christians worship the one true God, then what are we to say of the Jews? Is there God revealed by the OT not the same God as the Christian one? Absolutely not. Catholicism has the best understanding of God but that doesn’t mean other religions don’t get it right from time to time. What Jews and muslims lack, however, is the gospel revealed in the God-man Jesus Christ.
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
No, we are not required to give assent to the statement that Muslims worship the same God as Christians.
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Jon_Mallory
Guest
hmm…I’m pretty sure it is in Lumen genius which is part of the dogmatic constitution of the Church. See:catholic.com/blog/todd-aglialoro/christians-muslims-and-the-one-god
"Last week, Pope Francis received a collection of world religious leaders in his first ecumenical and interreligious event. His address to them contained diplomatic niceties and specific expressions of good will aimed at Orthodox, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims.
His remarks to the latter recognized that Muslims “worship the one living and merciful God, and call upon him in prayer.” In this he echoed the 1964 dogmatic constitution Lumen Gentium, which gave a nod to “the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”
Personally, I have reservations about this especially since it is mostly religious pluralists and universalists who get happy about this. As a Catholic, you must obey the living Magisterium. It is not up for me to decide.
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