In-laws baptized our children without permission

[EasterJoy]

I understand that there is a distinction. I also understand that consent is required for baptism to be valid. In adult baptism the individual must consent, in the case of an infant, typically the parents/godparents consent on behalf of the child, although the church reserves the right to do so “in danger of death”.

Who in the scenario of the grandparents was authorized to provide consent on behalf of the child?

Apparently both of you get used to answering the same question and fail to notice when a different one is being asked. I agree that typically a parent’s consent is required for licity, but the church dispense’s with that in certain circumstances.

My point is that baptism without the consent of the baptized (or the consent of one authorized to provide consent on behalf of the one being baptized) is not valid. No forced baptisms, even with water and the right words/intent. That’s why you can’t drive down the street with a super soaker and conduct ambush baptisms.

Parents/godparents can consent on behalf of the child, and the church reserves the right to provide that consent “in danger of death”. In both cases, with proper form and matter, a valid and licit baptism occurs.

Likewise, if a parent baptises their child at home, they are able to provide consent, and you have a baptism that is not licit, but is valid, if proper form and matter were used.

If someone who is not authorized to provide consent on behalf of an infant (such as grandparents) attempts to baptise that infant when the infant is not “in danger of death”, please provide something authoritative to demonstrate that the church also extends its provision of consent in this circumstance as well. Otherwise, it’s the same as throwing water at someone in the street who hasn’t provided consent to be baptized-not valid.

I’m open to being corrected, but a quote from a university professor who isn’t answering the question I’m asking doesn’t suffice, regardless of the use of bold and italics in the reply to me.

Why do you write valid? Do you know the legal definition of the word? There isn’t invalid, valid, and well-and-truly valid. There is valid or invalid. That’s it.

What I’m noticing is not that a different question is being asked. What I’m noticing is that you don’t seem to want to accept that the word “valid” has an exact legal meaning, and that in the case of canon law, the law is written to express the true sacramental reality. Therefore, it is quite possible for a person educated in canon law to give you a* definitive answer *concerning whether or not a grandparent with neither the consent of the parent nor the permission of her pastor can perform a valid baptism. You may not like it, which is understandable when the situation is unfortunate like this, but you have been given a correct and definitive answer with regards to whether it is possible for a valid baptism to be performed for a child by someone who is not a priest and does not have either parental consent or the extenuating circumstance of the danger of imminent death.

 

[AnnArbor]

Why do you write valid? Do you know the legal definition of the word? There isn’t invalid, valid, and well-and-truly valid. There is valid or invalid. That’s it.

What I’m noticing is not that a different question is being asked. What I’m noticing is that you don’t seem to want to accept that the word “valid” has an exact legal meaning, and that in the case of canon law, the law is written to express the true sacramental reality. Therefore, it is quite possible for a person educated in canon law to give you a* definitive answer *concerning whether or not a grandparent with neither the consent of the parent nor the permission of her pastor can perform a valid baptism. You may not like it, which is understandable when the situation is unfortunate like this, but you have been given a correct and definitive answer with regards to whether it is possible for a valid baptism to be performed for a child by someone who is not a priest and does not have either parental consent or the extenuating circumstance of the danger of imminent death.

I think perhaps he/she was attempting to make the text italicized. Using the asterisks is common in HTML for that. However, that said, your point stands – parental consent is not required for validity, only liceity. There really is nothing to argue about on that count – if the children were baptized with the proper elements and form, they are baptized.

Of course, what the grandparents did was beyond the pale – I think the OP is being quite generous and, perhaps ironically, exhibiting more Christian behavior than the grandparents who did the baptizing.

 

[EasterJoy]

Of course, what the grandparents did was beyond the pale – I think the OP is being quite generous and, perhaps ironically, exhibiting more Christian behavior than the grandparents who did the baptizing.

Well, the OP was probably baptized validly *and *licitly.

Bad joke. Seriously, though, he and his wife are being very understanding about this, because it was a gross violation of their rights as parents. They have left attending the Church, true, but we believe love covers a multitude of sins. Perhaps it does not mean much to an atheist to think that Heaven will notice his actions in a good light, but suffice it to say that they deserve the praise of their fellow human beings on this one. Their children will undoubtedly benefit from their generosity of heart, because loving grandparent are a great thing, even when your parents have to keep a bit of a leash on them.

 

[Viki63]

As per Catholic beliefs, depending on what happens next in the child’s life…doing this could cause more harm than good and be more serious and damaging than physical murder…it could be akin to spiritual murder and condemning a child to eternity in hell.
Um. Right?
.

With all respect, I have no idea where you’re getting this idea.
The God I worship would certainly never condemn someone to hell for having been baptized, then having the misfortune to not be raised as a Catholic.
In fact, I was baptized, raised as a protestant, then God led me to the Catholic church late in life. He does not abandon people, He continually works to bring us closer to him.
Of course it’s best for a child to be raised as a Catholic if he’s baptized, and clearly the grandparents were out of line to secretly baptize the kids, if indeed they did.
Hopefully, open communication will result.

 

[oneofmany]

I’ve read most of this whole thread and am so tired of all the rules and regulations in it. Didn’t Jesus condemn those who only lived by the law but had no charity and compassion for others?

For the OP. When you married a woman who had very devout Catholic parents what did you think would happen? Didn’t you know they would talk about their faith to their grandchildren? If you had married a women whose parents were devout Jews or Muslims or Protestants wouldn’t you expect them to do the same thing?

For those people who suggested bringing in a lawyer or drag the grandparents to a counselor, do you really want to spend a small fortune and start a war? How crazy is that, over religion?

I don’t know what religion you are since you didn’t want to say but if you are secular, why are you so upset? Baptism means nothing to you and your daughter will pick up on that. I am sure your wife’s parents have been praying for her to return to her faith from the time she left and now that she has had a child I am sure they are praying she will come back and bring her family as well.

You say they confirmed they did baptize your daughter, probably since they see their daughter has no thoughts of returning to her faith and getting her child baptized they decided to do it for the fear of Original Sin. If you don’t know about Original Sin you can do a search on it. The parents are probably old school and believe that way and had no thoughts of anything else religion wise for your daughter.

They know they cannot raise her Catholic or take her for her first Communion. The parents would surely be involved in those sacraments and the church would need the parents involvement. Your daughter is bright and would talk about her parents and tell you what is happening.

My advice is to drop this whole thing or your daughter will feel the tension. You have stated your position to the parents and that is all you can do. If you think you will stop devout Catholic people from talking about their religion or praying in front of your daughter then you don’t know about life. The same for Jews or Muslims or Protestants, etc.

I think it is silly the grandparents now need your supervision all the time. Then don’t send your daughter to school, I assure she will see and hear much worse at school, You will need to home school her.

If you still want to be controlling and can’t get over this I see a divorce in your future. Your wife’s parents will always be her parents and we all need to accept our in-laws. I am sure we can all tell you stories about in-laws and how we need to go along to get along. No reason to start a war over this, I am sure that is how Jesus would want it. Peace in families is the most important thing.

 

[Rau]

I’ve read most of this whole thread and am so tired of all the rules and regulations in it. Didn’t Jesus condemn those who only lived by the law but had no charity and compassion for others?

For the OP. When you married a woman who had very devout Catholic parents what did you think would happen? Didn’t you know they would talk about their faith to their grandchildren? If you had married a women whose parents were devout Jews or Muslims or Protestants wouldn’t you expect them to do the same thing?

For those people who suggested bringing in a lawyer or drag the grandparents to a counselor, do you really want to spend a small fortune and start a war? How crazy is that, over religion?

I don’t know what religion you are since you didn’t want to say but if you are secular, why are you so upset? Baptism means nothing to you and your daughter will pick up on that. I am sure your wife’s parents have been praying for her to return to her faith from the time she left and now that she has had a child I am sure they are praying she will come back and bring her family as well.

You say they confirmed they did baptize your daughter, probably since they see their daughter has no thoughts of returning to her faith and getting her child baptized they decided to do it for the fear of Original Sin. If you don’t know about Original Sin you can do a search on it. The parents are probably old school and believe that way and had no thoughts of anything else religion wise for your daughter.

They know they cannot raise her Catholic or take her for her first Communion. The parents would surely be involved in those sacraments and the church would need the parents involvement. Your daughter is bright and would talk about her parents and tell you what is happening.

My advice is to drop this whole thing or your daughter will feel the tension. You have stated your position to the parents and that is all you can do. If you think you will stop devout Catholic people from talking about their religion or praying in front of your daughter then you don’t know about life. The same for Jews or Muslims or Protestants, etc.

I think it is silly the grandparents now need your supervision all the time. Then don’t send your daughter to school, I assure she will see and hear much worse at school, You will need to home school her.

If you still want to be controlling and can’t get over this I see a divorce in your future. Your wife’s parents will always be her parents and we all need to accept our in-laws. I am sure we can all tell you stories about in-laws and how we need to go along to get along. No reason to start a war over this, I am sure that is how Jesus would want it. Peace in families is the most important thing.

Oneofmany - the ‘offence’ committed by the GPs lies in the disregard for parental decision-making they showed, not in the baptism itself which is not harmful.

OP - on the question of allowing the GPs only supervised access, is this because you fear some further misdeed by them (what?) or is it a punishment designed to encourage the apology you’ve requested? Do you believe there will be an apology?

 

[oneofmany]

Oneofmany - the ‘offence’ committed by the GPs lies in the disregard for parental decision-making they showed, not in the baptism itself which is not harmful.

OP - on the question of allowing the GPs only supervised access, is this because you fear some further misdeed by them (what?) or is it a punishment designed to encourage the apology you’ve requested? Do you believe there will be an apology?

So what grandparent hasn’t done or said something the parents disagree with? I don’t think there is a grandparent out there that hasn’t done something with their grand kids that the parents would say no to if they were around. This is why grand kids and grandparents get along so well.

If the OP is doing the supervision to punish them then he needs to look up forgiveness and I am sure he can find that if he does a search on here. How to forgive.

 

[Rau]

So what grandparent hasn’t done or said something the parents disagree with? I don’t think there is a grandparent out there that hasn’t done something with their grand kids that the parents would say no to if they were around. This is why grand kids and grandparents get along so well.

None, usually in matters trivial. This was not an area in which to ignore the parents wishes. It’s not comparable to providing one too many sweets.

 

[oneofmany]

Sorry, I was picking up on what some other posters had pointed out but perhaps didn’t make it clear in my own post…that if a child is unknowingly baptized into the Catholic church and it is recorded officially, etc, and then she does not follow the teachings of the church and does all sorts of “sinning”-- like marrying outside the church and therefore “fornicating” for the rest of her life, etc—it is so much worse for her “soul” than had she not been baptized. Especially if she finds out later she was indeed baptized and is made aware of this.
This is what others have said, yes?

.

How silly, you can’t be sinning if you don’t know you are sinning. It depends on what the parents teach her. If the father makes a huge deal out of what the daughter believes is only a “hair washing” then she will want to know more about it. If he downplays it and doesn’t talk about it again, she will forget about it. But maybe that would be God’s way of bringing her into the church, by having her know she was baptized and she would want to pursue it when she gets older. God knows better than all of us, as a wise old Irish priest told me when I said I thought God would understand. He said, " Oh God understands much better than any of us ever will."

Also, if her mother wasn’t married in the church she is fornicating and sinning. If she doesn’t go to Mass each Sunday she is sinning, etc, etc. It seems her mother has dropped away from the church.

I now need to read more of Pope Francis’ book on evangelizing to get people to join the faith for my group meeting tonight. I don’t think people will join the faith if we call them fornicators and sinners. The Pope wants us to concentrate on the charity of the gospels.

 

[David011]

For the OP. When you married a woman who had very devout Catholic parents what did you think would happen? Didn’t you know they would talk about their faith to their grandchildren? If you had married a women whose parents were devout Jews or Muslims or Protestants wouldn’t you expect them to do the same thing?
I don’t know what religion you are since you didn’t want to say but if you are secular, why are you so upset? Baptism means nothing to you and your daughter will pick up on that. I am sure your wife’s parents have been praying for her to return to her faith from the time she left and now that she has had a child I am sure they are praying she will come back and bring her family as well.

You say they confirmed they did baptize your daughter, probably since they see their daughter has no thoughts of returning to her faith and getting her child baptized they decided to do it for the fear of Original Sin. If you don’t know about Original Sin you can do a search on it. The parents are probably old school and believe that way and had no thoughts of anything else religion wise for your daughter.

They know they cannot raise her Catholic or take her for her first Communion. The parents would surely be involved in those sacraments and the church would need the parents involvement. Your daughter is bright and would talk about her parents and tell you what is happening.

My advice is to drop this whole thing or your daughter will feel the tension. You have stated your position to the parents and that is all you can do. If you think you will stop devout Catholic people from talking about their religion or praying in front of your daughter then you don’t know about life. The same for Jews or Muslims or Protestants, etc.

I think it is silly the grandparents now need your supervision all the time. Then don’t send your daughter to school, I assure she will see and hear much worse at school, You will need to home school her.

If you still want to be controlling and can’t get over this I see a divorce in your future. Your wife’s parents will always be her parents and we all need to accept our in-laws. I am sure we can all tell you stories about in-laws and how we need to go along to get along. No reason to start a war over this, I am sure that is how Jesus would want it. Peace in families is the most important thing.

Actually, no I am very sure you don’t know how Jesus would want it. And thank you for making yourself an expert of my marriage, because I TOTALLY don’t have a clue about what my wife wants out of all of this.

My wife AND I made the decision to only allow supervised visits for the same reason you would, if your in-laws had been teaching your children about another faith or anything that contradicts catholic teachings and morality. You are perfectly right, they are my in-laws and the grandparents of my children. Which is why we are not banishing them all together from our lives. That would be very silly. But they are not the co-parents of our kids. I accept them as my in laws and my wife accepts them as her parents. Now THEY need to accept us as adults and the ACTUAL parents of their grandchildren.

When I married the daughter of devout Catholic parents I was pretty sure I was marrying their daughter, not them. Since they are so full of morals and values, my wife and I would have thought RESPECT for boundaries would have been one of them, but clearly it wasn’t. We understand why they did it; they’re old and catholic. We can’t change how they think nor are we trying to but we can certainly change how they act around our children. We do not expect them to abandon their beliefs, we respect them very much (unfortunately we couldn’t get that in return) but we simply don’t want our kids being raised Catholic. Which, after talking with them, was their intention.

Why would I not send my children to school? Unless they are teaching them Catholicism or another religion I don’t see how that matters. Many threads here are all about keeping secularism away from their kids and religious freedom, but I guess when the Catholics are the ones not respecting beliefs, people need to just “let it go”.

Also, I think you need to look at your definition of forgiveness. To forgive does not mean to forget. We can forgive them once they ask for our forgiveness. That has not happened, and they feel no remorse or regret, which signals they still do not have respect for our parenting decisions. We are not asking for their approval of our decisions, we want their respect. In return they will being to fagain our trust.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’ve read most of this whole thread and am so tired of all the rules and regulations in it. Didn’t Jesus condemn those who only lived by the law but had no charity and compassion for others?

For the OP. When you married a woman who had very devout Catholic parents what did you think would happen? Didn’t you know they would talk about their faith to their grandchildren? If you had married a women whose parents were devout Jews or Muslims or Protestants wouldn’t you expect them to do the same thing?..

I don’t know what religion you are since you didn’t want to say but if you are secular, why are you so upset? Baptism means nothing to you and your daughter will pick up on that. I am sure your wife’s parents have been praying for her to return to her faith from the time she left and now that she has had a child I am sure they are praying she will come back and bring her family as well.

You say they confirmed they did baptize your daughter, probably since they see their daughter has no thoughts of returning to her faith and getting her child baptized they decided to do it for the fear of Original Sin. If you don’t know about Original Sin you can do a search on it. The parents are probably old school and believe that way and had no thoughts of anything else religion wise for your daughter…

My advice is to drop this whole thing or your daughter will feel the tension. You have stated your position to the parents and that is all you can do. If you think you will stop devout Catholic people from talking about their religion or praying in front of your daughter then you don’t know about life. The same for Jews or Muslims or Protestants, etc.

I think it is silly the grandparents now need your supervision all the time. Then don’t send your daughter to school, I assure she will see and hear much worse at school, You will need to home school her…

Presumably, when he married a woman with very devout Catholic parents, he presumed that they’d exert some amount of pressure for the family to return to the Church, but that they would not be willing to violate Church law and the natural right of their child as a parent herself to do it. The in-laws went beyond what could be “expected” of the faithful.

It does not hurt our children to see us gently and yet firmly draw boundaries and insist that they be respected. Be sure the child will know that if Grandma and Grandpa don’t get a pass on respecting the boundaries of others, it stands to reason that respecting boundaries is not just something being foisted off on children. The personal authority to draw one’s own boundaries and the duty to have proper respect for the boundaries of others are for everyone.

If baptism meant nothing to the OP and his wife, they’d say, “Sure! Go ahead and baptize them!” No, baptism means a child is a full member of the Catholic Church, with all the rights and duties that implies, including the right to be raised a Catholic which their parents are to see is done, which these parents appreciate. This is why baptism of an infant requires both the consent of the parents and the reasonable likelihood that the child’s rights will be honored in a the form of a Catholic upbringing. That is why you can’t just show up at the door of a Catholic Church and say, “These are my kids! I consent to their baptism! Have at it!!”

Honestly, I am very surprised that there are Catholics here that do not get the magnitude of what the parents have been asked to accept. Even if they were to think a baptism is nothing, it isn’t nothing. Why would we ever hope someone outside the Church would look at our sacraments in a dismissive way? Give them some credit for having more respect for us than that!

…When I married the daughter of devout Catholic parents I was pretty sure I was marrying their daughter, not them. Since they are so full of morals and values, my wife and I would have thought RESPECT for boundaries would have been one of them, but clearly it wasn’t. We understand why they did it; they’re old and catholic. We can’t change how they think nor are we trying to but we can certainly change how they act around our children. We do not expect them to abandon their beliefs, we respect them very much (unfortunately we couldn’t get that in return) but we simply don’t want our kids being raised Catholic. Which, after talking with them, was their intention… .

It was not too much to expect that devout Catholics would confine themselves to the boundaries the Church sets out for them, yes.

Also, I think you need to look at your definition of forgiveness. To forgive does not mean to forget. We can forgive them once they ask for our forgiveness. That has not happened, and they feel no remorse or regret, which signals they still do not have respect for our parenting decisions. We are not asking for their approval of our decisions, we want their respect. In return they will being to fagain our trust.

I think you have forgiven them. Forgiveness means to let go of ill will over an offense and a desire to exact vengeance (or repayment). That you have done, because it only takes one party to forgive. Forgiveness does not mean reconciliation–that takes two, as the Sacrament of Penance shows–and it does not mean automatically returning someone to a position of trust. Sin do have temporal effects, particularly sins against relationship. What is broken needs to be repaired, even after absolution is granted. The Church does not teach that forgiving an embezzler means giving them their job back at the bank.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’ve read most of this whole thread and am so tired of all the rules and regulations in it. Didn’t Jesus condemn those who only lived by the law but had no charity and compassion for others?..

…I think it is silly the grandparents now need your supervision all the time. Then don’t send your daughter to school, I assure she will see and hear much worse at school, You will need to home school her.

If you still want to be controlling and can’t get over this I see a divorce in your future. Your wife’s parents will always be her parents and we all need to accept our in-laws. I am sure we can all tell you stories about in-laws and how we need to go along to get along. No reason to start a war over this, I am sure that is how Jesus would want it. Peace in families is the most important thing.

(Boldface mine: EasterJoy)

Start a war over it? Oh, good grief, he and his wife are in agreement! They’re not going to get a divorce over this! What an awful thing to say! He is only posting a question here to confirm that his in-laws, whom he thought were faithful-to-the-smallest-jot Catholics, let their fears run away with them and violated what the Church ought to (and does) teach about the natural rights and duties that God gave parents. The answer is that yes, the grandparents did violate his and his wife’s right as parents, and the Church will back him up on that. That is really all he wanted to know.

Since the grandparents will not admit that they have no right whatsoever to just pick and choose which parental dictates they will follow, the grandparents cannot be trusted with unsupervised visits. Someone has to be there who will respect the rules that the parents made for their own children. it is that simple. Public schools get that, private schools get that, and the sooner the grandparents get that, the better.

 

[KnitNut]

So what grandparent hasn’t done or said something the parents disagree with? I don’t think there is a grandparent out there that hasn’t done something with their grand kids that the parents would say no to if they were around. This is why grand kids and grandparents get along so well.

If the OP is doing the supervision to punish them then he needs to look up forgiveness and I am sure he can find that if he does a search on here. How to forgive.

Isn’t this a little disingenuous, OneofMany? After all, you did this exact thing to your own grandchildren behind the backs of the parents…and apparently continue to hide it from them, if your thread of last July is any indication. I’m still not seeing any accountability…

Honestly, the entire Roman communion perplexes me.

 

[dedo]

Thank you very much! I’ve had to deal with them since the moment I asked my wife on our first date so I guess you could say I’m used to it. But I certainly have my limits, especially when it comes to my children. This baptism doesn’t mean much to us in regards to religion, we’re just trying to get a point across to their grandparents. I don’t mind their names going on church documents, my wife and I are on their too, this will just add to their number of non practicing Catholics in their books. Of course we won’t be taking any steps to make it more official either. Also I’m not sure my in-laws are aware of having to record it if done illicitly.

By the way, I’ll just go ahead and say, from all the crazy conservative points of views on all these threads and forums, you’re one of the few people I always agree with.

A reflex I learned a long time ago is to always consider if there is an important “reason” why a particular event / encounter occurs in my life from the perspective of: does the encounter illuminate something that I need to improve on?

For example, I have found that if I have a conflict with someone, it may be that what bother’s me about the other person is actually the same deficiency that I have.

If I encounter a particularly interesting thread on this forum, I ask myself if the resources suggested are something that I can benefit from.

Or if encounter someone who is talented in an area where I am weak, I try to learn from / copy the individual as best as I can.

Sadly, I am seeing no evidence of this perspective in your posts.

Although we don’t have children, we have a large number of siblings, nieces and nephews. I can say without exception that the parents that attended to their children’s basic religious foundation have children that are excelling. The parents that did not, have children that are struggling.

My parent’s supported me in many ways. By far the most important was introducing me to the Catholic faith in a supportive but gentle fashion. They made sure that I at least got through the basic sacraments. For my wife, the Protestant faith was best for her.

I feel sorry for children in families that don’t.

 

[David011]

A reflex I learned a long time ago is to always consider if there is an important “reason” why a particular event / encounter occurs in my life from the perspective of: does the encounter illuminate something that I need to improve on?

For example, I have found that if I have a conflict with someone, it may be that what bother’s me about the other person is actually the same deficiency that I have.

If I encounter a particularly interesting thread on this forum, I ask myself if the resources suggested are something that I can benefit from.

Or if encounter someone who is talented in an area where I am weak, I try to learn from / copy the individual as best as I can.

Sadly, I am seeing no evidence of this perspective in your posts.

Although we don’t have children, we have a large number of siblings, nieces and nephews. I can say without exception that the parents that attended to their children’s basic religious foundation have children that are excelling. The parents that did not, have children that are struggling.

My parent’s supported me in many ways. By far the most important was introducing me to the Catholic faith in a supportive but gentle fashion. They made sure that I at least got through the basic sacraments. For my wife, the Protestant faith was best for her.

I feel sorry for children in families that don’t.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut but I am not here to discuss why I’m not Catholic, nor why I’m not raising my kids Catholic if that’s what your trying to bring up. And perhaps you could be more specific as to what exactly it is you want me to take away from the posts. There are many people that posted helpful information regarding Church teachings and their own explanations. Then other posters just made me realize that I know my wife and I are doing the right thing regarding my in-laws. Either way all have helped in some way.

As for your own data based on your own experience,I have to say its just your experience. I personally have witnessed the opposite. I’m glad the Catholic faith worked out for you and Protestantism for your wife.

 

[EasterJoy]

…My parent’s supported me in many ways. By far the most important was introducing me to the Catholic faith in a supportive but gentle fashion. They made sure that I at least got through the basic sacraments. For my wife, the Protestant faith was best for her…

Just for the record and to clarify: the fullness of the Catholic faith is objectively “the best”, in the sense that all others have less of the revealed truth. It was also the stated desire of Our Lord that we be One Body, not many denominations. If someone cannot accept the Catholic faith, they cannot accept it, that is not ours to judge, but we cannot allow our recognition that we don’t have a license to heart-read to allow us to become relativists.

 

[Peter_J]

And from some of the posts the GP’s not only showed profound disrespect to the parents but also to the church they claim membership in…and profound disrespect to the sacrament itself.

Definitely. Catholicism is not a do-it-yourself religion, and according to the Church the grandparents actions were wrong.

Case closed? Hmmm … kinda surprising that the thread has grown to 14 pages. Well, I should say I’m surprised in a way, because in another way I’m not really surprised, having spent a lot of time on the net. (Incidentally, I have a great deal of respect for people who choose to steer-clear of the net, because there is so, so much garbage on it.)

 

[oneofmany]

Quote:
Originally Posted by David011 View Post
Thank you very much! I’ve had to deal with them since the moment I asked my wife on our first date so I guess you could say I’m used to it. But I certainly have my limits, especially when it comes to my children. This baptism doesn’t mean much to us in regards to religion, we’re just trying to get a point across to their grandparents. I don’t mind their names going on church documents, my wife and I are on their too, this will just add to their number of non practicing Catholics in their books. Of course we won’t be taking any steps to make it more official either. Also I’m not sure my in-laws are aware of having to record it if done illicitly.

By the way, I’ll just go ahead and say, from all the crazy conservative points of views on all these threads and forums, you’re one of the few people I always agree with."

===============================================================

So if the baptism doesn’t mean much to you in regards to religion I don’t know why you are trying to get a point across to your in-laws? What else do you think they will do with your kids behind your back? Are you having other problems with them? As I said, if you go to war with them it will affect your marriage, I don’t care how close you are to your wife now. Plus your kids will suffer not seeing them or just seeing them under your conditions.

From a Catholics point of view on here, it is sad you and your wife have fallen away from the church, it is for me anyway. It would be nice if you could do more investigating on the church to see if what you are feeling about the church is valid. Anyone can attend RCIA for more instruction, it doesn’t mean you will come back but it may clear up many misunderstandings you and your wife have about the church.

The attitude I get on this thread is these people are just about one step above a pedophile and that is so unfair to them. And this is from the Catholics, not you. Shameful. Talking about lawyers and counselors.

As I said earlier, don’t get caught up in church rules, Jesus never would and yes I think I can say what I think Jesus would say since I also read the bible. It seems you have never let church rules bother you since you have fallen away so why be concerned about them now? Only to show your in-laws they are wrong? And that leaves your kids where?

But this is advice only from a crazy, conservative, devout Catholic. LOL

 

[EasterJoy]

So if the baptism doesn’t mean much to you in regards to religion I don’t know why you are trying to get a point across to your in-laws? What else do you think they will do with your kids behind your back? Are you having other problems with them? As I said, if you go to war with them it will affect your marriage, I don’t care how close you are to your wife now. Plus your kids will suffer not seeing them or just seeing them under your conditions.

From a Catholics point of view on here, it is sad you and your wife have fallen away from the church, it is for me anyway. It would be nice if you could do more investigating on the church to see if what you are feeling about the church is valid. Anyone can attend RCIA for more instruction, it doesn’t mean you will come back but it may clear up many misunderstandings you and your wife have about the church.

The attitude I get on this thread is these people are just about one step above a pedophile and that is so unfair to them. And this is from the Catholics, not you. Shameful. Talking about lawyers and counselors.

As I said earlier, don’t get caught up in church rules, Jesus never would and yes I think I can say what I think Jesus would say since I also read the bible. It seems you have never let church rules bother you since you have fallen away so why be concerned about them now? Only to show your in-laws they are wrong? And that leaves your kids where?

But this is advice only from a crazy, conservative, devout Catholic. LOL

Who knows what else these grandparents might do because they are so sure they “know best”? This is particularly true of an ardent Catholic who says, “don’t get caught up in Church rules.” The Catholic who won’t listen to the Pope because they’re so sure they know better and besides he’s not here to make them respect his authority is surely someone who will overrule me as a parent because they know better than I do and besides *I’m *not there to make them respect my authority. Oh, beware of the Catholic who is more Catholic than the Pope!

A person who was misinformed about their duty is something else, but a devout person who won’t listen to what has been taught to him or her by church authority will be a affectionate person who is still going to ignore my wishes and walk all over me. No, I wouldn’t turn my back on someone like that, no matter how much they cared about me and my children, because in the end the bottom line is that they’re going to have their own way unless I’m standing there, sticking up for myself. (And even then, they will believe* I* am being the stubborn one!! ) They’re going to believe they are doing the best thing in the world for me and mine, the world would be a great place if everyone would just listen to them, but all the while they’re going to totally ignore whether or not a decision is theirs to make or mine to make. No, no thank you. That person is a loose cannon.

Remember in When Harry Met Sally, when Harry says the worst thing is a high maintenance person who thinks she is low maintenance? A worse thing than that is the arrogant person who is convinced that she is meek. Watch out, because that one will stop at nothing to “do the right thing.” She’ll steamroll the world to get her way, even the Pope, even her own child. She will stop at nothing, except at those who stand up and say, “STOP.”

 

[oneofmany]

Except Jesus condemned those who are so caught up in rules they can’t see 2 ft in front of their face and have no charity or compassion for others mistakes.

I am reading Pope’s Francis’ book, “The Joy of the Gospel” the Pope wants us to have charity for each other. The parents in this case don’t follow church rules very closely if they are fallen away. If they want strife in their family they will have it or they can forgive and not treat their parents like they are the enemy. Remember the commandant to respect ones parents? How about that rule.