In order to love, I think it absolutely necessary to believe in God

[RainbowNight]

Maybe some philosophical atheists! As an atheist I certainly didn’t follow a golden rule, unless it was called self-preservation.

If you read Richard Dawkin’s “the Selfish Gene”, you might come across Genetic Kinship theory, where the net benefit to the gene of cooperation, or pacifism or even self-sacrifice means will actually benefit the gene.

Now human beings have completely put the natural selection model into disarray, but it might be better from an atheist point of view to breed more Christians that to breed more atheists, simply because the christian demands much more self-sacrifice, honesty etc than the atheist (obviously no).

I don’t know if you were truly an atheist, but some people start claiming that they were ex-atheists just to make their argument more ‘valid’
Considering the selfish gene, yes, everything we do in this life is a part of experiencing ourselves, when we love," WE " love right?
I hope you could understand the point we are making, even the most non selfish attitude (love) is a part of ourselves too, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that we are ‘selfish’, it’s just the way WE feel as living beings, we love people, nature, animals… WE do it. (they are part of our life)
Saying that the christian demands more self-sacrifice than the atheist is just a claim, do you have something to support it, or just a feeling of superiority (honestly)?

 

[RainbowNight]

Yes, and a religion that agrees with and affirms my personal assessment that “Thou Shalt Love” is the cure for everything would assert that love is somehow at the foundation of the universe, i.e. that God/nature/the universe agree with me as well. An atheist could just as well believe that** “Thou Shalt Revel in Selfishness” **represents a sound moral code for life, and, in fact, that rule is one that has, more or less unconsciously, led or influenced the world to a great degree down through history; it’s sort of a tendency from birth and something which can oppose itself to love and something we need to be on guard against, IMO.

Humankind may never have even heard of the golden rule, let alone taken it seriously, if not for some religion way back when proclaiming it as an objectively right way to live.

Of course, there are “Christian” churches that utilize religion to support and affirm the “It’s-All-About-Me” standard as well; the “Prosperity Movement” comes to mind, but they can’t be taken seriously as representing the message of one who is said to have voluntarily experienced an extremely humiliating and painful death as the ultimate act of selfless love for humankind-to prove that God, Himself, agrees with my assessment that love is the cure for everything-apparently “agreed” with it before I even thought of it, in fact.

“Thou Shalt Revel in Selfishness” , According to what you are saying it, I really want to know how the mind of people who think that they are the only beings who capable to do self sacrifices because of their beliefs, love existed before Christianity and before Jesus. Buddha for example taught love and non violence, he was not a divine person, he was only a human who recognized, because he probably thought about it, that love is better for humanity and in understanding life than hatred and ego.

 

[kildare]

I don’t know if you were truly an atheist,

What is it to be truly an atheist? I might not have read Feuerbach, but I was cynical to religion and didn’t believe in God. What more can one do?

but some people start claiming that they were ex-atheists just to make their argument more ‘valid’

Ouch! So like an atheist pretending they were once believers and then making a story of how they became illuminated? Maybe, but it sounds like a vague , and a not, if you don’t mind me saying so, a very charitable assertion to make either!
More likely is that both believers and non-believers who have converted from a different belief system, use it as a reference point to relate the story or journey they have come on!

Considering the selfish gene, yes, everything we do in this life is a part of experiencing ourselves, when we love," WE " love right?
I hope you could understand the point we are making, even the most non selfish attitude (love) is a part of ourselves too, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that we are ‘selfish’, it’s just the way WE feel as living beings, we love people, nature, animals… WE do it. (they are part of our life)

You shouldn’t get too dismayed by reductionism, its only part of the whole story.
I wont try to pretend that it is easy, but the life of an aesthetic, for example someone like Saint Simeon Stylites, is about as close to living for another, namely the Almighty, as it gets. Finally you might see that Pure Love is a materially intangible concept, a bit like trying to reach infinity, or continually halving a number and trying to reach zero. Like those concepts, its not visible or understandable, but it must also exist.

Saying that the christian demands more self-sacrifice than the atheist is just a claim, do you have something to support it, or just a feeling of superiority (honestly)?

please come on. Thats just plain…ehem (non thinking). The 10 commandments, the marthyrs, the priests and nuns who forewent marriage and family life - most of them with no more evidence of the eternal than you.
No atheist, not even Hitchens would try to argue that. In fact for many its that precise reason which makes religion such anathema to them. Maybe I’m missing out on some masochistic atheistic community, but I think its pretty clear that atheism is not really going to promote self-sacrifice.

And that in itself is logical. As an atheist you don´t have to attend to any creed or deity, so I guess you are free to decide. We all know that no two faithful Catholics are exactly the same, but they agree on most aspects of morality. However the distance between two atheists must be necessarily greater, until at least we arrive at the utilitarian survival point, (and of course some atheists may not even be constrained by that).

Now you could say that many Christians simply sacrifice a good time having adultery, because they are afraid of getting a good slow burning in the next life, and that in itself is an act of self preservation. And you would probably be right if something called Love didn’t really exist and was just some chemicals in the brain. But Love does exist, and it is not just chemicals in the brain.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Rainbow

***Ah right! people who have a God ( even if he’s an evil one ) are automatically good, but those who do not have this kind of god are automatically bad and you compare them to Stalin, Hitler and Mao?
Supposing those were really atheists ( which I doubt btw ) does it mean that all atheists are like them? I know I’m not… ***

Now you are showing how silly you can really get.

**I don’t need a holy mandate to teach me how to love. I just love, because I think love is the cure for everything. **

Yeah, right. You want to love everything but the Fountain of all love.

 

[OvrlapnMagstria]

Abba,

Thank you for the reply you left over the weekend. I was unable to check until now, so please forgive my delay.

Your view on love and its source was described very beautifully and eloquently. I enjoyed reading about the types of love and about your belief of the source of love. I have learned a lot about your beliefs. Thank you.

However, I am still not convinced that a believer has a greater capacity or greater quality of love than a non-believer. You said that God is pure and absolute love and He gives this gift to the faithful. How do you know this? How do you know that God does not give that gift to the unfaithful as well? You also mentioned that you know these things by faith.

The problem is that someone can come to any conclusion by faith. For example, I could have faith that believers have a degraded love and give some explanation to that. I could have faith that only I have true love and everyone else experiences a lesser love. I could have faith that all love is an illusion and everyone is being fooled by this illusion. I could have faith in anything. Faith does not give a reason to believe something. It is used when there is no reason to believe.

 

[OvrlapnMagstria]

Yeah, right. You want to love everything but the Fountain of all love.

Demonstrate that God is the Fountain of all love and I will love that fountain.

 

[fhansen]

“Thou Shalt Revel in Selfishness” , According to what you are saying it, I really want to know how the mind of people who think that they are the only beings who capable to do self sacrifices because of their beliefs, love existed before Christianity and before Jesus. Buddha for example taught love and non violence, he was not a divine person, he was only a human who recognized, because he probably thought about it, that love is better for humanity and in understanding life than hatred and ego.

Love has always existed, as have joy, beauty, pleasure-goodness in general. We simply believe that love hasn’t reigned in man to the extent that it would if evil were to be totally overcome. IOW evil is an offense, a disorder, an unnecessary, unreasonable reality revealing a lack of love in us wherever and however it’s expressed.

This is to say that love is connected to justice; justice demands that evil be eliminated. Virtue isn’t merely its own reward; virtue is a moral imperative, i.e. righteousness is a moral imperative, i.e. love is a moral imperative. And this is so because righteousness isn’t merely a judgment call by me-righteousness/order/law/love is at the basis of existence-it’s “bigger” than me-and precedes me.

Jesus simply makes this truth clearly and undeniably known. He makes love something so important it’s worth dying for-He definitively makes it the highest good-higher yet than selflessness.

I don’t think Christians have a monopoly on love-or that there’s any reason to feel a need to compete with truths which are common to other systems of belief. I just think we’re offered the knowledge needed in order to have a pretty sound grasp on love and it’s relationship to all reality.

 

[RainbowNight]

Rainbow

Now you are showing how silly you can really get.

Please be respectful, It’s only showing to yourself.

**I don’t need a holy mandate to teach me how to love. I just love, because I think love is the cure for everything. **

Yeah, right. You want to love everything but the Fountain of all love.

You don’t get it, If I believe that a loving God exists, why would I hate him?
The issue is I don’t believe in a god. So sure I’ll love everything except your ‘fountain of all love’ which I think he’s non existent.

 

[RainbowNight]

Love has always existed, as have joy, beauty, pleasure-goodness in general. We simply believe that love hasn’t reigned in man to the extent that it would if evil were to be totally overcome. IOW evil is an offense, a disorder, an unnecessary, unreasonable reality revealing a lack of love in us wherever and however it’s expressed.

This is to say that love is connected to justice; justice demands that evil be eliminated. Virtue isn’t merely its own reward; virtue is a moral imperative, i.e. righteousness is a moral imperative, i.e. love is a moral imperative. And this is so because righteousness isn’t merely a judgment call by me-righteousness/order/law/love is at the basis of existence-it’s “bigger” than me-and precedes me.

Jesus simply makes this truth clearly and undeniably known. He makes love something so important it’s worth dying for-He definitively makes it the highest good-higher yet than selflessness.

I agree with you on this, our problem was on considering people who have different opinions than yours as less loving, ego centered and full of selfishness beings. I hope everything went clear
Peace

 

[Charlemagne_II]

OVR

*Demonstrate that God is the Fountain of all love and I will love that fountain. *

Loving God is the demonstration of Him as a fountain of Love. But since you have no intention of loving God, you will never know the fountain.

Read Pascal below. You have put up a wall between yourself and God. Then you ask us to knock the wall down. That is your job, not ours.

 

[OvrlapnMagstria]

OVR

*Demonstrate that God is the Fountain of all love and I will love that fountain. *

Loving God is the demonstration of Him as a fountain of Love. But since you have no intention of loving God, you will never know the fountain.

Read Pascal below. You have put up a wall between yourself and God. Then you ask us to knock the wall down. That is your job, not ours.

Ahhh…so its sort of like the recursive “in order to believe in God you must first believe in God”… got it.

Believe it or not, I would actually love to know God if He really exists. It would be silly to deny reality. It’s just I have yet to hear of a good reason to believe. And I have done quite a bit of searching to see if I’ve missed anything. It’s not that I have put up a wall. It’s just that it seems nothing is there.

 

[fhansen]

It’s not that I have put up a wall. It’s just that it seems nothing is there.

In Catholic thought the wall between man and God is already there-it’s a wall we must scale or tear down. This division-this wall-is related to a preference not to believe which is related to human pride. Have you, or could you, ask God to reveal Himself with any degree of sincerity? The ability to do so requires the smallest element of humility. I had a very difficult time doing this at first-always thinking about what others might think about it. I almost felt like I was betraying some sort of worldwide pact to never do such a thing. Maybe this doesn’t apply to you.

 

[OvrlapnMagstria]

In Catholic thought the wall between man and God is already there-it’s a wall we must scale or tear down. This division-this wall-is related to a preference not to believe which is related to human pride. Have you, or could you, ask God to reveal Himself with any degree of sincerity? The ability to do so requires the smallest element of humility. I had a very difficult time doing this at first-always thinking about what others might think about it. I almost felt like I was betraying some sort of worldwide pact to never do such a thing. Maybe this doesn’t apply to you.

Yes. I have sincerely prayed to God that I would like to know Him if he is there. You may think that I didn’t pray hard enough or i didn’t do it right, but I can assure you that I was as sincere as I could be.

I am interested in truth - whatever that may be.

 

[tonyrey]

Yes. I have sincerely prayed to God that I would like to know Him if he is there. You may think that I didn’t pray hard enough or i didn’t do it right, but I can assure you that I was as sincere as I could be.

I am interested in truth - whatever that may be.

If you believe in truth you are well on the way…

 

[Abba]

However, I am still not convinced that a believer has a greater capacity or greater quality of love than a non-believer. You said that God is pure and absolute love and He gives this gift to the faithful. How do you know this? How do you know that God does not give that gift to the unfaithful as well? You also mentioned that you know these things by faith.

Let me try this analogy: right now, as I read through the thread I am eating sirloin steak a la teriaky, with mushrooms and red onions. I am enjoying my dinner (I think it could have been better, the teriaky sauce is not the best - but,okay). Now, if I originated from some unknown place and had never seen a cow nor mushrooms nor unions before and someone presented this plate to me and I would eat it, would I enjoy it more if I new its origin? If I went to the amazon and a group of indigenous people offered me some food that looked and tasted peculiar, different, and strange etc…I think that I would enjoy it more knowing what I was eating. The unknown can be a little disturbing, especially if I am eating it. We humans want to know things, where they came from, who made them or created them, how they work, etc…

I think that when we know the origin of something and understand that something better; we appreciate it more and in the case of love are better able to participate and experience it.

I am thinking, I am here, I am not going anywhere, let’s keep communicating and maybe you can come to understand what I by a gift of God have come to understand and know. This is how it is and how real what I am trying to communicate to you is to me; you have never seen an elephant before but, you have heard the calls of elephants and you ask me what is that sound and I try to explain that it is the calls of elephants and elephants are animals. That’s how real and how much I know what I am trying to communicate. Pray to the Holy Spirit with faith(the little prayer is on one of my previous post - go ahead - try it) and let’s carry on. With the help of God maybe you can take some steps to advance.

I am fully aware that I am not being super analytical and all that and presenting fine arguments; I have a style of my own, I guess. I warned you that it would demand patience
and cooperation. But, with the help of God, I will try to take you to see those elephants.

The problem is that someone can come to any conclusion by faith. For example, I could have faith that believers have a degraded love and give some explanation to that. I could have faith that only I have true love and everyone else experiences a lesser love. I could have faith that all love is an illusion and everyone is being fooled by this illusion. I could have faith in anything. Faith does not give a reason to believe something. It is used when there is no reason to believe.

I will respond to this section later…

Peace,

Abba

 

[RainbowNight]

Let me try this analogy: right now, as I read through the thread I am eating sirloin steak a la teriaky, with mushrooms and red onions. I am enjoying my dinner (I think it could have been better, the teriaky sauce is not the best - but,okay). Now, if I originated from some unknown place and had never seen a cow nor mushrooms nor unions before and someone presented this plate to me and I would eat it, would I enjoy it more if I new its origin? If I went to the amazon and a group of indigenous people offered me some food that looked and tasted peculiar, different, and strange etc…I think that I would enjoy it more knowing what I was eating. The unknown can be a little disturbing, especially if I am eating it. We humans want to know things, where they came from, who made them or created them, how they work, etc…

I think that when we know the origin of something and understand that something better; we appreciate it more and in the case of love are better able to participate and experience it.

Hi Abba, I want to reply to that post, if it not bothers you, but seriously and literally taking the example. When I knew the source and the origin of steak (Slaughterhouses, killings, tortures, pain, blood) I stopped enjoying the “delicious meal” or eating it.
Taking it as an example, sure we humans want to KNOW things and the unknown bothers us, that’s why atheists are people who seek the truth too, but you are taking like you certainly know that there is a God, and it’s the Catholic one! It’s more like a belief… While I want to KNOW thru many evidence that the source you are talking about is truly a source of all knowledge and love, and not only base my thoughts on beliefs and faith rather than knowledge.
You said that if you know the origin of “the delicious meal” you would enjoy it more, not necessarily, you can enjoy eating without knowing the source of your meal, specially if you were very hungry for food (love), you can in this case enjoy the meal even more!
To you, the source of love is God, and I respect that, but to others not necessarily only atheists, the source of love can be other than a God, it does not mean that they love or enjoy love less than you do.

I am thinking, I am here, I am not going anywhere, let’s keep communicating and maybe you can come to understand what I by a gift of God have come to understand and know. This is how it is and how real what I am trying to communicate to you is to me; you have never seen an elephant before but, you have heard the calls of elephants and you ask me what is that sound and I try to explain that it is the calls of elephants and elephants are animals. That’s how real and how much I know what I am trying to communicate. Pray to the Holy Spirit with faith(the little prayer is on one of my previous post - go ahead - try it) and let’s carry on. With the help of God maybe you can take some steps to advance.

I am fully aware that I am not being super analytical and all that and presenting fine arguments; I have a style of my own, I guess. I warned you that it would demand patience
and cooperation. But, with the help of God, I will try to take you to see those elephants.

I will respond to this section later…

Peace,

Abba

Just want to mention something, that atheism is not a choice, it’s mostly a conclusion, atheists do not reject, turn their back, hate God or “choose” to go to “hell”. I heard those statements many times, it’s simply most of us cannot believe in what we think is not true, many atheists were religious once, and in the moments of having skeptical thoughts, honestly seeking and searching the truth and losing faith, they tried hard at first in wishing and praying to ‘God’ that they were wrong about the conclusion they got to, but we can’t keep lying to ourselves and convince ourselves in what we think is not true.

Peace

 

[OvrlapnMagstria]

Let me try this analogy: right now, as I read through the thread I am eating sirloin steak a la teriaky, with mushrooms and red onions. I am enjoying my dinner (I think it could have been better, the teriaky sauce is not the best - but,okay). Now, if I originated from some unknown place and had never seen a cow nor mushrooms nor unions before and someone presented this plate to me and I would eat it, would I enjoy it more if I new its origin? If I went to the amazon and a group of indigenous people offered me some food that looked and tasted peculiar, different, and strange etc…I think that I would enjoy it more knowing what I was eating. The unknown can be a little disturbing, especially if I am eating it. We humans want to know things, where they came from, who made them or created them, how they work, etc…

I think that when we know the origin of something and understand that something better; we appreciate it more and in the case of love are better able to participate and experience it.
Abba

I like this analogy! It is certainly true that understanding the origins of a thing can lead us to greater appreciation of the thing. This is one of the reasons that I like science so much; it is constantly learning about the world and the universe. A rainbow is beautiful, but I find it so much more amazing knowing that it is created by just the diffraction of light and the geometry of the angles it makes with the observer! Such a simple process that creates something so cool!

Learning about the source of love is also important and would likely increase our appreciation for love. However, you have so far only asserted that the source of love is God. I know that you believe this, and that is fine. What I was asking is how do you know? How do you know that God is the source of love? Are you aware that other religions make different claims about the source of love? How do we distinguish whether the source of love is the Christian God, the Hindu god Kamadeva, the Greek god Aphrodite, or even a source that is not a god at all such as our brain chemistry or structure?

Using your example, if I receive a plate of food from the Amazon, asked what it was, I could certainly enjoy it more with that knowledge (unless, as RainbowNight said, the source was something gross.) But what if the people replied that it was meat from the three-toed hortlespag? When I ask to see the creature, they respond that I can’t. When I ask others what a three-toed hortlespag is and check an encyclopedia, I find that no one has heard of such a thing. I would then have to conclude that I really don’t know what I ate. Perhaps I really did eat a three-toed hortlespag, a creature only known to that tribe; perhaps that tribe uses that name for some other known creature; or perhaps I ate something entirely different.

Just want to mention something, that atheism is not a choice, it’s mostly a conclusion, atheists do not reject, turn their back, hate God or “choose” to go to “hell”. I heard those statements many times, it’s simply most of us cannot believe in what we think is not true, many atheists were religious once, and in the moments of having skeptical thoughts, honestly seeking and searching the truth and losing faith, they tried hard at first in wishing and praying to ‘God’ that they were wrong about the conclusion they got to, but we can’t keep lying to ourselves and convince ourselves in what we think is not true.

Peace

I agree with this very much. Thank you.

 

[Abba]

Hi Abba, I want to reply to that post,

Do you want to see the elephants too?

I think that you do. Some atheists think of themselves and behave as though they ran away from God (some actually did), but most , like yourself and OvrlapnMagstria simply got lost but do not realize it - yet. That whisper that you do not even identify, recognize or even acknowledge is God calling you. That longing in your soul is God calling you. It’s like Saint Augustine said: “Our hearts are restless, O Lord, until they rest in you.” I am comparing the whisper with the sounds of elephants. You are his lost sheep and he is calling you back to him. He is the Good Shepherd. He loves you dearly, RainbowNight and OverlapMagstria. Try to follow the longing, try to follow that call and meet him half way.

One of the obstacles here is that you may not know your soul from your mind, emotions nor body. One thing that I can tell is that the Sacraments help the soul to mature and the more your soul matures the more aware you are of your soul. I am very aware of my soul, I know I have a soul like I know I have a nose.

Permit me to share a story I heard at Mass this past Sunday. We saw a video from a religious inviting the parishioners to participate on a ‘mission’ basically it sounded to me like a mini retreat for a couple of hours in the evenings up to Wednesday. The religious shared that he often goes to different parishes to speak and give missions (mini- retreats?) and that one day he was being transported from the church to someplace by a chauffeur of the church. In the car, they greeted each other and the missionary asked the chauffeur to tell him a little about himself. The man said that several years ago, when his son Aaron was four years old, his son was diagnosed with leukemia and died a year later. He said that he got angry at God and did not go to church nor prayed for two years. I think it was his mother and brother in-law that one Sunday convinced him to go to church with them and reluctantly - he did. They sat in the front pew and the man just sat there with his arms folded in front of him. He did not kneel nor got up - nothing. He just sat there with his arms folded. Then, he heard a voice call - “James”. In his soul, he understood it was the voice of Our Lord. He looked around the altar in front of him. Then, he heard: “James, it is not Aaron only that you miss. You miss me too.” James told the missionary; he knows me by name. Ever since that day, with a fervent desire, he James dedicated himself to practicing his Catholic faith.

Jumping all over the placing, let me say that that journey is for you to take to see the elephants. I and the other posters can try to guide you and accompany you as far as we can, but, in the end it is your journey and it is between you and God. I start off with philosophy and end up with mysticism. I do not see it as a defect but as a blessing. I recognize the limitations of the intellect, I think reason helps us to express our faith but faith is above reason and finally God reveals himself to us and the Holy Spirit enlightens us and God’s revelations are above reason but, we use reason to ascend to understand but, we leave reason behind and continue to ascend with the Grace of God. Human reason is limited. It’s like a vehicle that can take me from point A to point B but does not know where I am going or why. The Israelians (or Hebrews or Jews - I don’t know what they were called at this point in there journey) God HIMSELF guided them out of Egypt and took them to a land of milk and honey. They did not recourse to science, nor the pagans to show them the way. No. God himself guided them. Your Egypt is atheism - let God guide you - HIMSELF.

Just want to mention something, that atheism is not a choice, it’s mostly a conclusion, atheists do not reject, turn their back, hate God or “choose” to go to “hell”. I heard those statements many times, it’s simply most of us cannot believe in what we think is not true, many atheists were religious once, and in the moments of having skeptical thoughts, honestly seeking and searching the truth and losing faith, they tried hard at first in wishing and praying to ‘God’ that they were wrong about the conclusion they got to, but we can’t keep lying to ourselves and convince ourselves in what we think is not true.

Peace

This may be your particular experience, but, there are atheists who start off with knowing God exists and out of anger turn their back and kept going. Kept going so far that they came to believe that God does not exist. Check out this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=545558 Not just from anger have some turn their back on God but also our of selfishness and pride. If this is not your situation and you have come to atheism our of a pure intellectual difficult then fine. I actually started writing a book, it is currently gather dust but… it is entitled:

ATHEISM
A Stage of Spiritual Development

I think atheism is a stage of spiritual development - not a level - but a stage.

Arendzen, from that book I told you I am reading now, thinks of it more like a mental malady - like brain freeze.

Gotta go,

Abba

 

[Abba]

If you believe in truth you are well on the way…

Hear, hear!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Ovr

Are you aware that other religions make different claims about the source of love? How do we distinguish whether the source of love is the Christian God, the Hindu god Kamadeva, the Greek god Aphrodite, or even a source that is not a god at all such as our brain chemistry or structure?

I am certainly aware of such claims, although I’ve never heard of the human brain chemistry as the source of all love. It certainly isn’t the Fountain of Life, so I don’t saee why it should be the Fountain of Love.

As for the others, they do not convince in the least. Aphrodite is not a historical figure. She does not engage me person to person. Jesus does. Aphrodite is a symbol of erotic love, not agape. Jesus is the personification of the principle that any God worth his salt would not offer us death without the hope of resurrection. Not only resurrection, but rebirth in a better life.

Kamadeva, like Aphrodite, is only one of many lesser gods. I have never been attracted to a religion that has so many gods as populated Greece and India. It is enough that I should be asked to embrace the idea of three persons in one God! But I guess if a single atom can consist of three parts, so can God.