In the Spirit: Can a Catholic also be a liberal?

[livnlern]

Now you’re introducing “fully” into the mix. I said nothing about “fully”.

My criteria for being a Catholic is the same as the Catholic Church’s. Baptism or rite of initiation.

This may help and also answer the question of the OP, and respond to Kreeft and those who agree with him. Even if all those liberal things, pro choice, gay marriage, stem cell research are mortal sins and a Catholic adheres to these liberal viewpoints, the Catholic answer is yes the Catholic remains a Catholic.

catholic.com/quickquestions/is-a-catholic-in-the-state-of-mortal-sin-still-a-member-of-the-catholic-church-or-doe

Now as SilicaSandra said, if the Catholic did not wish to be called such, then she would out of respect not call them so. But the reverse is if the Catholic does identify themselves as such, they are. If people want to say they are perhaps less than fully faithful or not fully practicing, that’s one thing. Though I think telling them over and over something like they are headed for fire, as SilicaSandra also alluded to, can probably have the opposite result you desire and harden their hearts and drive them further away. But to say they are not or can not be Catholic is simply false. I hope that helps. God bless and peace.

It’s not up to me to say whether someone is living up to their faith or not. I know how hard it is to be a good Catholic. I’m just going by what the Church teaches. None of this is easy, and I realize not everyone is at the same point in their religious life.
But being Catholic doesn’t just happen, like getting Baptized when you’re a baby. You don’t have any say in something like that. Your parents do that for you. And many of us wander off away from the Church at various points in our lives. I’m not condemning anyone for doing this. But as adults we have to decide at some point whether we’re going to actively try to live out our faith.

 

[rlg94086]

It’s not up to me to say whether someone is living up to their faith or not. I know how hard it is to be a good Catholic. I’m just going by what the Church teaches. None of this is easy, and I realize not everyone is at the same point in their religious life.
But being Catholic doesn’t just happen, like getting Baptized when you’re a baby. You don’t have any say in something like that. Your parents do that for you. And many of us wander off away from the Church at various points in our lives. I’m not condemning anyone for doing this.** But as adults we have to decide at some point whether we’re going to actively try to live out our faith**.

Exactly. While all are Catholics, I think there are certainly differences between…

1. A Catholic who does their best to live in accordance with Church teaching
2. A Catholic who regularly attends Mass and receives the Eucharist but is openly sinning and vocally opposed to some Church teaching (e.g. uses birth control, divorced/remarried w/o annulment, etc.).
3. A non-practicing Catholic

The first person is a sinner and may even disagree with the Church on some issues but lives according to the teaching anyway in obedience and with humility. That is understandable, as some teachings are hard. Clearly, that person is living their life as a Catholic.

The second person may very well be eating and drinking judgment on himself (1 COR 11:29) by receiving in a state of mortal sin (i.e. they know it is serious sin and do it anyway)

The third is a fallen away Catholic.

 

[SalesianSDB]

The only thing that would make me a “liberal” is that I don’t mind a few instruments as Mass as long as they are talented and sound good.

 

[CMatt25]

The problem is the fear isn’t likely to save them. Doing anti-Catholic work on earth while trying to maintain your Catholic namesake out of fear isn’t likely to placate a just God.

Like I said I have no idea of the status of another’s heart at the moment of their last breath unless I’ve spoken with them close to the time. So I personally shall leave what is likely to save them or not to God and not judge.

 

[He_Man]

Like I said I have no idea of the status of another’s heart at the moment of their last breath unless I’ve spoken with them close to the time. So I personally shall leave what is likely to save them or not to God and not judge.

No one knows what they utter in their last breath, nor do we ever ignore God’s endless mercy.

However, the Church has made it clear what we must do to achieve salvation, and ignoring Church teaching’s while remianing Catholic out of fear isn’t on the list.

 

[Pro_Bono_1]

No one knows what they utter in their last breath, nor do we ever ignore God’s endless mercy.

However, the Church has made it clear what we must do to achieve salvation, and ignoring Church teaching’s while remianing Catholic out of fear isn’t on the list.

Who is claiming that it is?

 

[andrewstx]

aaa

 

[lainlainlain]

Hold on a minute,

I have always upheld the doctrine and social teaching of the Church, however always seek to challenge everything I hear. You could say that one of the main reasons I uphold it is because I have not found a place to conclusively fault it. But what people are implying seems to be disturbing - yes, by all means, there are infallible teachings, but some people seem to be implying that we should not even question them to be able to justify or reach the Truth, thus implying we should be mindless slaves or something. Were we not given the gift of thinking and conscience by God so as to be able to come to the truth ourselves and not have to acquiesce to it being spelt out to us?

Surely there can’t be anything wrong if I actually break down, analyse and evaluate the justifications for Church teaching, or any teaching for that matter. Atheists like to hail themselves as ‘free thinkers’, but that carries the implication that Catholics are people who cannot speak to defend themselves because they are just acquiescing without question to what is being told in the Magisterium.

 

[Liquid47]

The child in us wants to feel good without following principles or values, and wants to believe that everything will be fine with less effort, sacrifice, and maturity.

My good sir, that’s going in my quote book!

 

[Liquid47]

Hold on a minute,

I have always upheld the doctrine and social teaching of the Church, however always seek to challenge everything I hear. You could say that one of the main reasons I uphold it is because I have not found a place to conclusively fault it. But what people are implying seems to be disturbing - yes, by all means, there are infallible teachings, but some people seem to be implying that we should not even question them to be able to justify or reach the Truth, thus implying we should be mindless slaves or something. Were we not given the gift of thinking and conscience by God so as to be able to come to the truth ourselves and not have to acquiesce to it being spelt out to us?

Surely there can’t be anything wrong if I actually break down, analyse and evaluate the justifications for Church teaching, or any teaching for that matter. Atheists like to hail themselves as ‘free thinkers’, but that carries the implication that Catholics are people who cannot speak to defend themselves because they are just acquiescing without question to what is being told in the Magisterium.

In seeking questions, we get a greater understanding of the truth. So it’s perfectly valid to question the tenets of the faith.

Dogmatically speaking, the Church is free from error in faith and morals. So while you can purport questions, if your answer comes up differently, you are probably in error yourself. I myself sometimes come up with different answers which seem to be logically sound and free from error. Then I remind myself the onus is on little me to negate two thousand years of history and thought

Look at it this way: The Church is the answer section at the end of a very large text book. You cannot refute the answer section because they are incontrovertibly true. What you can, and probably should do, is understand how those answers came to be.

 

[Holly3278]

I would say that a Catholic can be a liberal so long as they do not dissent from any Church teachings. That said, if you are politically liberal then you are probably supporting the Democrats or some other political party which is pro-abortion or even for “gay rights” like “gay marriage” and such. A faithful and orthodox Catholic, in my opinion, should not support a party that supports such gravely immoral things.

 

[sedonaman]

Define “liberal” Catholic. …

The problem is that “liberal” isn’t properly defined.

A liberal is one who tries to force change for the sake of change on those who don’t want it.

 

[sedonaman]

LIBERALISM IS A SIN

liberalismisasin.com

 

[harlen]

Reading this thread it feels like it should be titled “Can an American be a Liberal?”
From a European perspective, the US centre of gravity is so conservative-leaning that they think they are upright when their keeled over on their right sides.

I see a man told, it’s OK he’s not a liberal because he favours female altar-servers…because that’s now official.
But if he favoured female-altar-servers in the '50s he would have been reviled as an outrageous liberal. So is this just about timing?
Sometimes the conservative is clinging childishly to safe certainties. He/she accepts changes, but only when Daddy (The Magisterium) says it’s OK. But the Magisterium never plays the lead in these changes, it tends to be dragged there by the liberals like the Jesuits banning slavery, or the capitalists who caused the church to abandon its ban on usury.

Was Jesus seen as a Liberal or a Conservative by those around him?

For the record, I am pro-life. But as regards Family Planning (I don’t see the neat distinction between artificial & natural) I feel the Church has to struggle with its inheritance of Greek dualism which brought in a hatred and fear of the flesh. The Catholic church may find itself struggling with what the Natural Sciences, Neuropyschology, and other branches of study tell us of sexuality just as certain Protestants have become enmeshed in an obscurantist debate against evolution.

Where are the conservative Americans who hold to the church’s condemnation of usury (& therefore capitalism)? Why do they not hold to the primitive communism of the church in Acts? Why do they not hold to Christ’s clear pacificism? Because all these teaching were changed under liberalising pressures.

 

[lainlainlain]

Thanks. Well I generally re-evaluate my conscience whenever I encounter something new, I always think that if I keep asking I’ll get to the truth anyway. So far it’s worked …

Not as an answer, but just as a side comment: the fact that we are having this topic is really quite sad. If you look back at history the Catholics, especially those in the working class, were traditionally left-wing. In the US, in Latin America, Europe and Australia, they used to comprise immigrants, working families, the unions, etc. or more generally, those who fought for equal pay and conditions, fair treatment for immigrants and all races, civil rights etc. Now it seems to be the other way around - due to the hardline pro-life stance of conservative parties, the faithful are turning right-wing.

But it seems that in an era of political partisanship, they get sucked in to following other policy measures, such as being pro-death penalty, pro-Iraq war (both of which the Holy See opposes), pro-gun ownership, etc. Despite already waning approval ratings for George W. Bush in 2004 regarding Iraq, etc, he managed to secure the vote mainly from the Christian pro-life because he knew that as long as he opposed abortion, he would have a few ten million people conscientiously vote for him. So the war and economic spiral continued … Does it have to be this way? Are we going to let a political party essentially manipulate our pro-life consciences to make us support just about everything else that we don’t believe in? Just a thought - what is there we can do?

 

[rlg94086]

Thanks. Well I generally re-evaluate my conscience whenever I encounter something new, I always think that if I keep asking I’ll get to the truth anyway. So far it’s worked …

Not as an answer, but just as a side comment: the fact that we are having this topic is really quite sad. If you look back at history the Catholics, especially those in the working class, were traditionally left-wing. In the US, in Latin America, Europe and Australia, they used to comprise immigrants, working families, the unions, etc. or more generally, those who fought for equal pay and conditions, fair treatment for immigrants and all races, civil rights etc. Now it seems to be the other way around - due to the hardline pro-life stance of conservative parties, the faithful are turning right-wing.

But it seems that in an era of political partisanship, they get sucked in to following other policy measures, such as being pro-death penalty, pro-Iraq war (both of which the Holy See opposes), pro-gun ownership, etc. Despite already waning approval ratings for George W. Bush in 2004 regarding Iraq, etc, he managed to secure the vote mainly from the Christian pro-life because he knew that as long as he opposed abortion, he would have a few ten million people conscientiously vote for him. So the war and economic spiral continued … Does it have to be this way? Are we going to let a political party essentially manipulate our pro-life consciences to make us support just about everything else that we don’t believe in? Just a thought - what is there we can do?

Well, for starters, “liberal” Catholics could be faithful to the teachings of the Magisterium, including birth control, rather than speaking ill of the Magisterium and lampooning “conservative” Catholics, as the previous poster did.

Cardinal Ratzinger said that Catholics can differ on such topics as the application of Just War (specifically Iraq at that time) and the death penalty. Which political party is manipulating you? Is it the one who is pro-abortion AND war AND death penalty (i.e. Democrats)?

 

[CMatt25]

Thanks. Well I generally re-evaluate my conscience whenever I encounter something new, I always think that if I keep asking I’ll get to the truth anyway. So far it’s worked …

Not as an answer, but just as a side comment: the fact that we are having this topic is really quite sad. If you look back at history the Catholics, especially those in the working class, were traditionally left-wing. In the US, in Latin America, Europe and Australia, they used to comprise immigrants, working families, the unions, etc. or more generally, those who fought for equal pay and conditions, fair treatment for immigrants and all races, civil rights etc. Now it seems to be the other way around - due to the hardline pro-life stance of conservative parties, the faithful are turning right-wing.

But it seems that in an era of political partisanship, they get sucked in to following other policy measures, such as being pro-death penalty, pro-Iraq war (both of which the Holy See opposes), pro-gun ownership, etc. Despite already waning approval ratings for George W. Bush in 2004 regarding Iraq, etc, he managed to secure the vote mainly from the Christian pro-life because he knew that as long as he opposed abortion, he would have a few ten million people conscientiously vote for him. So the war and economic spiral continued … Does it have to be this way? Are we going to let a political party essentially manipulate our pro-life consciences to make us support just about everything else that we don’t believe in? Just a thought - what is there we can do?

I find it quite sad as well. I remember those days when as you say many Catholics were more left wing. No doubt for American Catholics, Roe has had a lot to do with it. But I also sometimes think that perhaps as folks have achieved a higher status on the economic ladder, some even with the help of government programs, whether it be aid to further their education, or so forth, that they reach a place financially where they then object to things such as paying taxes to further the advancement of programs to help others. I have seen immigrant grandparents, working class, whose children were also more left wing. But whose children’s children became less so. This might be changing somewhat though among some of the younger generation who can seem to be more open on social issues such as gay unions and rights. Something which is generally considered to be on the liberal side of the spectrum. Or at least I know I have heard it said the young tend to be more open on that issue. I’m not sure if this includes young Catholics though.

But anyway I do find as one party has campaigned on an anti choice and anti tax platform, many have flocked to that party over the yrs. And while I understand the politics of the vast majority on this private internet forum are not liberal but rather quite conservative, if it is representative of the politics of the Catholic Church today, just speaking for myself personally, it is not something that compels me to seek greater communion. I long for a return to the time you describe when Catholics were more left wing on the issues you brought forth. However I see the opposite occuring.

But peace and God blessings to all of us across the political spectrum.

 

[rlg94086]

But anyway I do find as one party has campaigned on an anti choice and anti tax platform, many have flocked to that party over the yrs. And while I understand the politics of the vast majority on this private internet forum are not liberal but rather quite conservative, if it is representative of the politics of the Catholic Church today, just speaking for myself personally,** it is not something that compels me to seek greater communion.**

But peace and God blessings to all of us across the political spectrum.

So, you would reject the Church because you find some of its adherants hold views contrary to yours? Wow. That’s some real strength of conviction.

 

[CMatt25]

So, you would reject the Church because you find some of its adherants hold views contrary to yours? Wow. That’s some real strength of conviction.

If their political views were a true representation of the political views of today’s Catholic Church, then yes it would give me pause to ponder. Why wouldn’t it if I didn’t believe in the politics espoused by those faithful adherants, that Christ’s teachings were being represented as well as they could be. Keeping in mind the imperfections of politics and political parties of course.

 

[rlg94086]

If their political views were a true representation of the political views of today’s Catholic Church, then yes it would give me pause to ponder. Why wouldn’t it if I didn’t believe Christ was being represented in the politics espoused?

So, if you determined that Christ’s Church on earth disagreed with your personal views, you would choose yourself over the Church. I’m sure you would make a great pope for your own church. The nice thing is you wouldn’t even need a Magisterium.