In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins

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Biblically evolution cannot be correct…here is why.
When God made the world he made it free of death, before Adam and Eve sinned there was no sin, no evil, therefore no death. When Adam and Eve ate the apple sin entered into the world, and death came along with it. Initially it was Adam and Eve’s spiritual death and separation from God, but eventually it was their physical deaths. If they had not sinned they would have lived physically with God forever in the Garden of Eden and human kind could have stayed in God’s presence because we would have been perfect and righteous.

Evolution, and it’s mechanism, natural selection, depend on death to function. Without death natural selection could not exist because it uses death as the great equalizer. Natural selection says that those animals that are best adapted to the environment will survive and reproduce the most. In other words, those animals that are best adapted to survive and reproduce will survive and reproduce the most. That kind of logic is called a tautology, which basically means it is self evident, and when Darwin came up with the theory he was just stating the obvious, and the reason it was such a successful theory is that no one had ever seen that tautology as a possible explanation for the diversity of life.

So to sum up my point, biblically there was no death before the fall. If you are going to take a biblical evolutionary perspective, the evolution of species must have occurred before the fall, because biblically the fall was only around 6,000 years ago (not nearly long enough time for evolution to have produced all of the species present on Earth today). But evolution and natural selection depend on death, and according to the Bible there was no death before the fall (and their couldn’t have been because there was no sin or evil and therefore no death because death is inherently evil (hell is the eternal “death”, or by believing in Jesus we will not perish or “die” -John 3:16)). So basically evolution as atheists and agnostics see it (from chemicals to bacteria to humans) does not fit with a biblical world view.

Now you have to ask the question, which one is right, evolution or the Bible? Well, microevolution (the small mutations that make organisms better adapted to survive WITHIN A SINGLE SPECIES) has been scientifically proven, but microevolution fits within the biblical world view because it does not try to say that we evolved from bacteria and chemicals, it merely says that generations within one species will gradually be better adapted to survive. Macroevolution is where the disagreement lies. Macroevolution is the claim biologists make when they say we evolved from bacteria. They claim that body building genes (genes that control multiple other genes), can be mutated, and therefore cause a large mutation in the structure of the organism. The chances of having a successful mutation that would actually help the organism and make it more able to survive is very minimal, and despite years of experimentation science has yet to prove that macroevolution is even biologically possible. There have been experiments that switch different organisms’ body building genes and observe the results, but none have been able to prove macroevolution. There are debates on whether macroevolution is even biochemically possible. And if it isn’t biochemically possible, there is certainly no way it could work at all.

There are multiple creationist views that do not contradict the Bible. Two main ones come to mind. First is the most popular and debated, the young earth creationism. This is a literal translation of Genesis, in that God created the world literally in six, 24 hour days. The other is the day-age theory. This says that the six days in Genesis were not literal, and stood for periods of time. This theory accounts for problems the young earth theory runs into such as light from distant stars not having enough time to travel to earth if earth is only 6,000 years old. Another such problem is carbon dating and fossils, although carbon dating is flawed in it’s concept (I am not going to take time to explain it here, you can google it if you are interested, or see the book list at the end of the post). Even though the young earth theory runs into a couple problems, there are still many prominent theologians that use science to prove the young earth theory possible.

Sorry for all the babble, but I am very concerned about evolution as a theory and a threat to Christianity. I personally know and have heard of people who have gone from theism to agnosticism or atheism because of the evidences for evolution. I will say, there are many compelling evidences for evolution, but all of those evidences can also be used to support creationism. The reason evolution seems so much more probable is it is currently much more mainstream, and you would be hard pressed to find a knowledgeable and well known scientist who affirms biblical creationism. I am also worried when some Christians give into evolution because it just seems easier to go with the flow, or it is much more difficult to get people to see a Christian world view when you disagree on the fundamental origins of life and its diversity.

I want you to know that there are many strong, scientific, and logical arguments out there against evolution and for a biblical creationism. I can point you to two books I’ve enjoyed: The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel (Strobel interviews different professionals in their respective fields surrounding creationism and evolution and shows that there are many strong arguments against evolution) and Darwin on Trial by Phillip Johnson (Johnson examines evolutions main arguments and puts together counter-arguments as to why the original arguments are flawed).

Thanks for reading, and if you are interested, please do pick up one or both of those books and learn more about evolution and creationism.
 
Nice first post Strykerdcm12:thumbsup:

Not only is evolution absurd scientifically, but the Church has on numerous occasions authoritatively upheld the literal historical truths of the creation accounts in Holy Scripture.
 
Catholicism doesn’t mean Biblical inerrancy, and it is permitted for a Catholic to acknowledge the contributions of evolutionary theory to scientific understanding.
Do you have any official Church statements to back up your “Catholicism doesn’t mean Biblical inerrancy” statement?

And do you mean micro or macro evolution?
 
There are many highly authoritative magisterial teachings that upholds special creation and the literal historical truth of Genesis 1-11.

So…

Catholics are obliged to hold fast to the traditional doctrine of creation as it was handed down from the Apostles and taught and believed by ALL the Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church.

And don’t forget…

that all statements by Church leaders favorable to evolution have been non-authoritative or ambiguous.
I see Revelation as a valid challenge to empirical science. Revelation should illuminate the human reasoning of experimentation and theory.
 
You make a fair point, but to be fair to your detractors as well: the problem is that you are challenging a field with a pile of scholarship a mile long, with numerous applications, one that is accepted, understood and taught by 99%+++ of modern scientists. .
i am simply asking questions.

My apologies to all if it offends scholarship to be questioned.
 
Wow. Theory is now proclaimed fact. ‘Next topic please…’

You speak of my own ideological opinion, yet fail to see that you have not considered any of the substantial evidence provided.

I think there should be a good critical look at who is really the adherent to ‘ideological opinion’.
Is it the one that accepts no critique, does not answer questions, and will not provide any evidence?
Or is it the one that continues to look at theory and ask critical questions?

Your closed minded approach in this thread betrays you.

Also, do you mind explaining to everyone here what precisely my opinion is?
Perhaps quote a post or two where I explain what I believe?
Just so we can know we are on the same page here.
After all…you haven’t had a problem labelling my opinion, you should be familiar with it.
VZ, you sound like another miscreant who has deviated from the lemming line by DARING to ask questions. I love how some evos point to scientists to dissuade discussions. As for me, until scientists can turn a paramecium into a new species, or non-life into a paramecium, I’m calling their bluff. :cool:
 
VZ, you sound like another miscreant who has deviated from the lemming line by DARING to ask questions. I love how some evos point to scientists to dissuade discussions. As for me, until scientists can turn a paramecium into a new species, or non-life into a paramecium, I’m calling their bluff. :cool:
Here are some examples of speciation (both natural and artificial) for you:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation
talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html#part5
talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
 
OK, a few questions here…

Is a non-fertile animal really considered speciation?
Throughout each of these links are events documented in which a ‘new species’ is produced, but the species cannot reproduce.
I understand the need for some to call mules a species unto themselves, but if they cannot reproduce…?

Is altered behavior really enough to consider something a new species? I encountered these in your second link. Fly behavior was changed, so the consider it a speciation (although they can still mate with the original species).

Are results not witnessed yet really reliable results?
Second link refers to the Gall former fly.
After a lengthy discussion on it, they conclude with “this may represent the beginning of a sympatric speciation.”
So speciation has not occurred, and only ‘may’ be…
But they appear to count this as an example of speciation.

Can we really consider a hypothesis a conclusion?
“A species of hemp nettle, Galeopsis tetrahit, was hypothesized to be the result of a natural hybridization of two other species…”

I am finding a lot here that does not bear scrutiny.
This makes me wonder if I should continue reading through these sources.

If it does not bear scrutiny in what I can check, how can I trust where I haven’t the ability to check?
 
Do you have any official Church statements to back up your “Catholicism doesn’t mean Biblical inerrancy” statement?
I should say, “literal and inerrant”, neither of which describe the Bible accurately.

I see no evidence requiring Catholics to believe either of those two things. Thank God. The Bible is filled with allegory, parables, psalms, and yes, some history (though when compared to modern notions, it is very poor history. Inspired by God, fine, but you can’t hold these authors to the level of modern historians.)

That said, if you have any evidence that says Genesis (or the Bible as a whole) is inerrant and must be interpreted literally by Catholics, then please do share. Happy to read. 🙂
And do you mean micro or macro evolution?
Both. Here.
 
Hi, Epan,

Actually, the burden has not been met. Moving on to another topic is fine if that is what you want - but, please do not think this has been resolved. Seriously, if there is an issue with, ‘…ideologically driven opinion…’ I think you hit your thumb squarely - instead of the nail. 😃

All science today really does begin with a hypothesis. It is developed, published, debated in peer reviewed journals and either abandoned in favor of another hypothesis, refined which will then take more research or adopted. But, none of this guarantees that the issue has been resolved and the problem solved. Every now and then - scientists falsify both data and results - and it escapes immediate detection. But, eventually, the fraud is brought to light and the liar exposed. Making sure that what we are working with is valid is an on-going challenge - never, a ‘done deal’ type of arrangement that enables us to sit back and watch the ‘sun rise’ for we know we are the center of the universe… 😃

And, even when you think you have it down - there is still the problem of having a Type I or Type II Error - accepting the hypothesis when it is false, or rejecting the hypothesis when it is true. And, that is the humble reality of all scientific inquiry.

You may not agree with Vz71, but that is no reason to launch a personal attack. Seriously, I think you owe Vz71 an apology.

God bless
That burden has been met. Next topic, unless you have something new and significant to contribute, other than your own ideologically driven opinion.

We all have opinions. Nothing wrong with that. But don’t confuse yours with the overwhelming evidence which contradicts it. The two are not the same.
 
Tom, you do know that the scientists at State College had e-mails purloined that showed that they were in the process of devising arguments to mask facts contrary to the global warming theory. This is how science is conducted today. It’s mostly agenda-driven politics. I’d LOVE to see private e-mail exchanges between naturalists. I’ll bet they would show the same shading of results. I mean, look at recent ancestor hoaxes, which were so ridiculous that not even fellow evos could abide them. Yet, they are so desperate to deny God that major magazines treated these "spurious “finds” as important. :rolleyes: Rob
 
Hi, Rob,

Yes, I do know this. And, I confess, I was giving more of an idealized view of scientific inquiry - rather than a comment of does actually get accepted to the suffering of many. Here is a classic bit of fraud in research that cost some children dearly: nhs.uk/news/2007/January08/Pages/MMRvaccinedoesnotcauseautism.aspx The MMR vaccine does not cause autism - but, it took a long time to arrive at this.

Actually, there is bogus science all over and our work as informed citizens is to spot potential problems - items that fly in the face of prudent judgment (immunizations cause disease and death [for a very few this is true, for the vast majority this type of health intervention prevents disease and death] drinking alcohol while pregnant is ‘OK’ **
Tom, you do know that the scientists at State College had e-mails purloined that showed that they were in the process of devising arguments to mask facts contrary to the global warming theory. This is how science is conducted today. It’s mostly agenda-driven politics. I’d LOVE to see private e-mail exchanges between naturalists. I’ll bet they would show the same shading of results. I mean, look at recent ancestor hoaxes, which were so ridiculous that not even fellow evos could abide them. Yet, they are so desperate to deny God that major magazines treated these "spurious “finds” as important. :rolleyes: Rob
 
OK, a few questions here…
I am not a biologist or expert but I will do my best to answer. 🙂
Is a non-fertile animal really considered speciation?
Throughout each of these links are events documented in which a ‘new species’ is produced, but the species cannot reproduce.
I understand the need for some to call mules a species unto themselves, but if they cannot reproduce…?
Not quite, I think you misunderstand. A population is considered a new/separate species if they cannot reproduce with the original population. They must be capable of reproduction amongst themselves though. So mules are not a species bc they are sterile. The inability to reproduce with the original population is important to understanding speciation so I encourage you to read more about it or ask me for clarification. Also one thing to note is that this only applies to organisms that reproduce sexually.

Suggested reading: proof-of-evolution.com/faq-hybrid-sterility.html
Is altered behavior really enough to consider something a new species? I encountered these in your second link. Fly behavior was changed, so the consider it a speciation (although they can still mate with the original species).

Are results not witnessed yet really reliable results?
Second link refers to the Gall former fly.
After a lengthy discussion on it, they conclude with “this may represent the beginning of a sympatric speciation.”
So speciation has not occurred, and only ‘may’ be…
But they appear to count this as an example of speciation.
Can we really consider a hypothesis a conclusion?
“A species of hemp nettle, Galeopsis tetrahit, was hypothesized to be the result of a natural hybridization of two other species…”
Best I can answer you is it’s not the best example of speciation. Perhaps they should’ve put that on a list of “possible observed speciations.” This article was written in 1995 though :eek: so maybe there is more recent data that has confirmed or falsified this. I will look for something more recent if you’d like. Personally I like reading about the evolution of cute animals though not bugs lol. 😛

Suggested reading: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem

Regarding the use of words like “may” - you will find this a lot! “It is thought that” …“This suggests that”… Scientists in all fields of study say this in case new evidence is discovered that disproves that particular finding, especially with evolution bc fossils are hard to come by or don’t tell us the whole picture. The thing is though, one ought not to dismiss evolution just bc some of the evidence is lacking.

“Biologists make predictions, then they go out into the field or the lab to see if their predictions hold up. When hundreds of predictions of this sort are fulfilled, a theory reaches the point where it becomes certain, at least on a broad level. And that is where we are with evolution.”
– Darrel R. Falk
I am finding a lot here that does not bear scrutiny.
This makes me wonder if I should continue reading through these sources.
There is some very good information to be found on talkorigins but it is rather outdated it seems so Wikipedia may be a better source. (I know people give Wikipedia a lot of flack but I think it’s great, and you can always check the references or the talk page if you read something questionable.)
Plus, once your familiarize yourself with the basics from websites such as those, you can read the more reliable scholarly journals and know enough to understand what they’re talking about.
If it does not bear scrutiny in what I can check, how can I trust where I haven’t the ability to check?
You could go to a natural history museum and see the evidence for yourself.
 
Hi, Gcharles,

Sorry to be so late in responding to your post - I just saw it. 🙂

Besides being late with a response, I guess I am confused as to what you have said. The post announces that you are a Catholic - and, that has meaning for many people. While you really did not do justice to the Church’s teachings (humans did not do anything without the Power of God creating everything necessary to put His Plan into motion). Catholics believe that God took a direct hand the creation of man - making him into God’s Own Image. This did not happen via evolution or natural selection or the flip of a coin. But, this does not mean that God could not use any method He chose to get the universe to that sate of being before He acted on the creation of man. I am guessing that you knew this already … am I right?

Try not to base doctrinal statements on ‘feelings’ - most of the time they just turn out to be gas! Considering how this same Catholic Church stood up to the murderous persecutions of the Roman Empire - and today is standing up against the attack on Religious Liberty lead by the Obama Administration - I just do not see how you can honestly claim the Church of Christ is a coward. And, if there ever was cause to wonder about ‘political correctness’ maybe calling the Catholic Church names is a good example.

But, what is really troublesome is your comment on ‘water down’ gospel. Just how do you think the Bible got to us today if it were not for the Catholic Church? It woould appear that you are now in the business of interpreting Scripture for yourself. So, tell me, which Scriptural verse(s) specifically proclaims what you are claiming it says?

God bless
The Catholic statement on creation is that humans could have evolved from lower species. I feel this is a politically correct view. I also believe it borders on cowardice. How dare any man water down the gospels?
 
. Catholics believe that God took a direct hand the creation of man - making him into God’s Own Image. **This did not happen via evolution **or natural selection or the flip of a coin. But, this does not mean that God could not use any method He chose to get the universe to that sate of being before He acted on the creation of man.
JPII disagrees with you:

“It can therefore be said that, from the viewpoint of the doctrine of the faith, there are no difficulties in explaining the origin of man in regard to the body, by means of the theory of evolution. But it must be added that this hypothesis proposes only a probability, not a scientific certainty. However, the doctrine of faith invariably affirms that man’s spiritual soul is created directly by God. According to the hypothesis mentioned, it is possible that the human body, following the order impressed by the Creator on the energies of life, could have been gradually prepared in the forms of antecedent living beings. However, the human soul, on which man’s humanity definitively depends, cannot emerge from matter, since the soul is of a spiritual nature.”

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19860416en.html

So you see, when you say “God took a direct hand the creation of man - making him into God’s Own Image” your words are not wrong, but your understanding of them are (according to this encyclical). God took a direct hand in the creation of man’s soul not his body. Which really makes more sense if you think about it since God doesn’t have a physical image.
 
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