In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins

[Lost_Wanderer]

The Catholic Church - the Church we both believe in - has not condemned either the Creationist’s model or the God-driven Elolutionary model. What it has condemned is the Atheistic model that tries to explain all as though God does not exist.

I don’t know about you but I’ve seen enough of the damage caused by literal Creationism both on the internet AND in my personal life. Much of atheist strawmen is derived from actual beliefs held by the likes of Jack Chick.

Frankly, I can’t stand it anymore.

The ultimate result of literalist logic actually lead to a view of God that is theologically inconsistent with Church teaching. The literal God of the OT really doesn’t differ much from the likes of Zeus. They way literalists interpret His actions are no different from the way ancient pagans view the actions of their gods trumping that of their rivals’.

I read the Catechism and the Church clearly spells it out that our God doesn’t operate in that manner. You say that the Church condemns atheistic evolution. No denying that. Mixing any form of philosophy is already unscientific. However, I strongly believe that as literalist belief loses more and more scientific ground, there will come a day when that too will be just as condemned as the atheist view of creation.

Personally, I think we would all do well to exercise more charity in discussing the sincerely held beliefs of those who believe in God - just differe on the means He Chose to bring about Creation. What I am proposing goes totally counter to the view of the ‘fantasy world’ that has only ‘black hats’ for the bad guys and ‘white hats’ for the good ones. Average individuals have no place in the extreme setting of fantasy - and this is hardly a good preparation for the real world were most of us have ‘grey hats’ on a lot of the time!

But that’s exactly the kind of world literalist’s believe our world was! We were nothing more but another silly participant in the Ancient War of the Gods game. We said our God was better. Our Holy Book shows accounts of Him doing so. (Just like the Greek gods in ancient fiction like Homer’s Iliad.)

I’m telling you, if you just took some time to studying myth and how it was influenced modern fantasy, many of your typical tropes are there. Taking all these events from a literalist’s perspective paints a very delusional image of our world. I say delusional because this the kind of world the loonier gamers would deceive themselves with.

I’m not such a person and I’m not about to tolerate the religious fundamentalist version.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

So, if I understand you correctly, you used to have what you now call fantasies… what exactly do you mean by that? You have a vivid, sparkling way of expressing yourself (I mean that as a compliment), but you have included so many images that I am not sure what you might mean… that the OT was true? That Zeus, etc, was true?

No. Not quite there yet. I’m saying that I often daydream of a world like that. However, like all healthy escapists, I set my limits. I know how the world really works and frankly, I don’t like it. I have to accept it (at times with gritted teeth) but still don’t like it.

I don’t need to like an undeniable truth in order to accept it. Get it? That’s how objective I can be.

It only gets worse though when I run into sappy literalists with a dangerous delusion that our world was similar to that. I mean, look I’m already dealing with my bitter feelings towards this mundane universe and you make a mockery out of my struggle by giving me false hopes that this wasn’t always the case? I feel more like a loser to have the same religion as these people.

I make the comparison with other mythological deities because there are indeed parallels between the OT and other ancient myths (as a few others have also agreed). By parallels, I’m talking tropes, themes, plot devices, and story structures.

I think I understand better what you are saying, which is that if you discovered the OT stories were true, you would be upset at all the back and forth, *not * that if the OT stories were true, *they *would diminish your view of God.

Do I now seem to have a better understanding of what you are saying?

That and more. It is not just my view. It’s the view set up by the entire Church. The Church doesn’t preach about a God who is no more different in character than Odin, Ra, Zeus, Shiva, or all the other pagan pantheon heads. Alas, that’s the ultimate conclusion that OT literalism will lead you to and that is why I say it’s on it’s way to heresy.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You do, however, make a serious mistake when you claim that you would be upset with God if He did ‘x’ instead of the ‘y’ you have expected from Him.

Given with what we have to work with, there are logical reasons to be upset. This is different from what you’re assuming.

Our world was built in a certain way. That structure forces us to live according to its rules. We hate those rules but we accept them because theology says that God has good reasons.

Now enter people who claim that the real world God created was never like this. It was like the world where all the rules scorned by fantasizers were broken.

According them, there was some point in ancient times when God changed His mind. We went from Record of Lodoss War to 50 Shades of Grey.

Don’t you see where the frustrations come from now? It makes God look like some petty author/reader, who shapes the way the world works at His own obscure whims. It’s easy why such inconsistency would give good cause to be really, really upset.

Think about that - how can anyone hold a delusional thought about God and claim to be upset if God reveals the Truth to them. This is serious material and one I would advise that you reconsider. None of us have the inside track to Truth. Our Faith in the Catholic Church is our Guide - and this more then any fantasy world should be the determining factor.

Yeah, you’re misunderstanding my position.What you don’t realize is that should creationists be right, God coming down and apologizing for His inconsistency should be the least worries. The fact is, it makes everything we’ve taught about the nature of God and creation ultimately inconsistent!

Part of growing up, as St. Paul identified, is putting away the things of a child (1Cor 13:11). And, really, when you claim that you ‘…hate this reality…’ (rather have the fantasy world) this raised a very big flag in my mind. The idea of being an integrated person is that we can effectively deal with reality - hating it, as a general concept, leads to real emotinal and psychological problems. We can hate certain aspects of reality (e.g., the killing of innocent civilians in the Middle East, the wholsale abortion of millions of innocent lives in our own country, etc.) but this is different from ‘hating reality’ and wanting fantasy.

I’m sure that as a Catholic, you believe in objective and absolute truth. I don’t let my feelings of contempt get in the way of acceptance (as I’ve said to St. Francis). It’s in the same way, I am compelled by charity and conscience to support my family with what I earn. I may not like giving up my money but I don’t let my personal feelings get in the way what I know is the correct thing to do.

But sadly, the way literalists talk just trivialize my struggles to accept reality despite my feelings by trying to delude me with false hopes. Their false hopes.

 

[St_Francis]

**Lost Wanderer **and **LynnVC, **
Both of you have mentioned that you have seen bad results from people believing in Creationism. I have never seen this, and I have seen the opposite, the bad results of teaching what ends up being atheistic evolution (because of the restriction on mentioning God and the lack of proper background to counter this).

So I was wondering what the bad results were that you had seen, and approximately how they came about?

 

[buffalo]

**Lost Wanderer **and **LynnVC, **
Both of you have mentioned that you have seen bad results from people believing in Creationism. I have never seen this, and I have seen the opposite, the bad results of teaching what ends up being atheistic evolution (because of the restriction on mentioning God and the lack of proper background to counter this).

So I was wondering what the bad results were that you had seen, and approximately how they came about?

Catholics have been creationists from the very beginning. Catholics are the ones to first understand the universe to be intelligible and worthy of study. Bad results? Catholics understand every human to be made in the Image of God and treat them as such.

Now one could make an argument that since materialism has struck at the heart of Catholicism these results are bad.

 

[edwest2]

Hi, Lynnvinc,

Let me start off by saying that I personally think the ‘Big Bang’ (totally enabled by God) was the mechanical means God chose to begin Creation. And I can add that Evolution (again, totally enabled by God) is how life on Earth happened. And, be sure to add that through a special act of creation, God infused man with an immortal soul made in the image of God. Now, on to the work at hand.

I realize that you think Creationism is based on, ‘…an extremely limited view…’ and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But, as I read your post, it really sounded like you were putting down those who - with just as much zeal - believe in their position as you believe in yours. This appears to be rather uncharitable.

Being ‘wowed’ by God is a daily event for me, too! Just look at what God has created - and this is just the stuff we can see and know about. We are constatly learning about more and of His wonderful creation. But, the fact that others see things differently - and sill include God as the center of Creation - should be respected. Yes, there are Atheists out there who are truly lost souls - and every blooming flower that causes us to praise God for His Goodness - is pretty much lost on the Atheist who tramples the flower under foot.

But the comment that actually moved me to responding was this: " I’m afraid the creationists pretty much weaken my and others’ beliefs, so I just have to ignore them before they can do harm to my faith in God (and I think they do much much harm to others’ faith as well, not to mention draw them into sin). " May I suggest that if you believe that your Faith is weakened by the beliefs of others who believe in God - but think God took a different approach - you start praying and working on strengthing your faith. And, really, such a post as you have presented is hardly an example of ‘ignoring them’.

By developing a strong Faith - through the Grace of God - we can keep to our own view of which theory we think is right … and appreciate the efforts of others in their work to promote the work of God … based on the theory they think is right. The Catholic Church is big enough to embrace both views without diminishing the believes of either group. I think this is an excellent role model for us to follow.

God bless

I disagree. There is ample evidence that if something happened, it did not occur as advertised. I’m tired of the constant, and I mean constant, debate about this. God does not need science. Jesus raised the dead, gave sight to the blind and rose, bodily, from the dead Himself.

Why the great, burning need to reconcile science with the Bible? Science can’t study God or put the soul in the laboratory. I can see only one reason for some posts, to say that God did nothing and random, unintelligent forces did everything.

usatoday.com/tech/science/2007-04-12-pope-evolution_N.htm

Peace,
Ed

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

So I was wondering what the bad results were that you had seen, and approximately how they came about?

These bad results are none other than the strawmen that atheists concoct about our religion. Everything from God being a tyrannical rip-off of other pagan divinities to the rampant misconception that all religious people oppose science are justified because there are those like you who insist on excessively respecting such views. The negative reaction towards evolution by yesterday’s religious is the one responsible for making today’s atheist view it as a weapon against faith.

It was we who tore this rift between science and religion.

It was we who created Dawkins

Thus, we should be the ones to clean up the mess our ancestors made.

 

[Not_Sure_1]

Uh huh… I’m sure you also believe in dragons too huh?

I don’t think God is some tyrant who has to resort to petty pagan deity tactics to have a good relationship with His children.

What, you believe ancient gods can turn water into blood, staves into snakes, and don’t think the Egyptian sun god can’t perform sun-related magic attacks?

Uh-huh. Sure, even though you’re ignoring the main point that you’re saying the devil can do all sorts of crazy, reality-bending baloney.

If he really could, he could’ve conquered the world in less then a year. Why doesn’t he?

And again, don’t say “Because God no longer permits him”. You’ll cause more people to hate God because you reduced Him to just another deity who uses divine-bully tactics. In this case, said tactics are the bland laws of reality.

Do you even know what I’m talking about when I say things like Ancient War of the Gods and Pantheon Games?

That’s exactly what I mean! It’s the whole, stupid “My god is bigger than your god” debate all over again. The Egyptians did it. The Greeks did it.

And now, you want to drag our Almighty Father down to that same, childish level.

Once again, you demonstrate more logical fallacies. Just because I don’t believe that the devil can perform oh-so-evil dark magics that turn people into toads or cause his minions to literally manifest as giant monsters doesn’t mean I deny his actual existence.

My belief in him is just more well-aligned with actual, scientific reality.

I belief I said this before but just because you freak people out by causing your possessed victims to slowly puke nails doesn’t mean I’ll be impressed.

I repeat: wake me up when the Devil is capable of decimating an entire fleet of U.S. navy warships, a squadron of F-22s, and at least half a dozen battalions of the American Armed Forces.

That’s when I’ll be scared.

How about every single verse and teaching that tells us that God isn’t some pagan deity that wilfully punishes people for His own ends?

(If I were you, I’d start with the Catechism.)

The point of the story of the satyr is that God has given us the knowledge necessary for salvation, all other knowledge that is unnecessary for salvation is open to speculation. For example, what creatures exist outside of the species we see, etc. In all things Charity.

Yes, I do believe in dragons, especially about the story of St. George. Do you believe every culture in the world can have a story about dragons, without one person ever encountering something like one (like a dinosaur). Remember we have found supposedly extinct animals still living.

The Devil has changed his strategies from that time. A lot of the things you are speaking about are the powers of demons. God warned us not to mess with the occult because the demons will give us what we think we want, but they’ll take away so much more from us. They demand sacrifice like Moloch. This is how possessions happen, looking for ways to appease false gods (demons). Of course, some of these false gods were really nothing but stone, but some were demons ready to take the souls of the nations.

Why do they not do so now? Well, the Church has bound Satan. Remember the demons that Jesus cast out, they said “you were not supposed to come yet.” They were scared because they knew their reign on earth was up. The Devil has become more subtle now that people have the Church. It is easier to take away the souls by corrupting priests (and therefore taking entire congregations), corrupting bishops (taking dioceses), convincing missionaries that there is not need for all men to know and believe the Catholic faith, slowly chipping away at the culture to the point to where people give sin free reign. If Satan just did attacks, people would become more nervous, realize that they need God, pray more, and become closer to him. Satan would be killing, but not taking souls. (Fear the one who can kill body and soul). A lot of the people were very pious in the past, because they were afraid about what lurked in the dark (God was the light that kept them going, and allowed them to sleep safe in their beds). People seem to have lost a fear of the devil, a fear of the unknown, and so now many believe they do not need God, and so continue to sin.

For Salvation, orthodoxy. for things not pertaining to salvation, freedom. In all things, Charity.

 

[Al_Moritz]

These bad results are none other than the strawmen that atheists concoct about our religion. Everything from God being a tyrannical rip-off of other pagan divinities to the rampant misconception that all religious people oppose science are justified because there are those like you who insist on excessively respecting such views. The negative reaction towards evolution by yesterday’s religious is the one responsible for making today’s atheist view it as a weapon against faith.

It was we who tore this rift between science and religion.

It was we who created Dawkins

Thus, we should be the ones to clean up the mess our ancestors made.

Precisely right. Atheists would have no line of attack if religionists were not so close-minded towards reality. Literalist creationism breeds atheism.

Not just in the sense just mentioned, but I also have seen literalists turn atheists once they discovered that science showed that the world was not like they thought and they falsely (but understandably) thought they had to choose either between science and religion. Of course, under these faulty premises they “chose science”. How utterly sad.

I of course choose both religion and science. I am both Roman Catholic and a scientist (biochemist). For me there was never a conflict, but then, I never was a literalist.

 

[Not_Sure_1]

No. Not quite there yet. I’m saying that I often daydream of a world like that. However, like all healthy escapists, I set my limits. I know how the world really works and frankly, I don’t like it. I have to accept it (at times with gritted teeth) but still don’t like it.

I don’t need to like an undeniable truth in order to accept it. Get it? That’s how objective I can be.

It only gets worse though when I run into sappy literalists with a dangerous delusion that our world was similar to that. I mean, look I’m already dealing with my bitter feelings towards this mundane universe and you make a mockery out of my struggle by giving me false hopes that this wasn’t always the case? I feel more like a loser to have the same religion as these people.

I make the comparison with other mythological deities because there are indeed parallels between the OT and other ancient myths (as a few others have also agreed). By parallels, I’m talking tropes, themes, plot devices, and story structures.

That and more. It is not just my view. It’s the view set up by the entire Church. The Church doesn’t preach about a God who is no more different in character than Odin, Ra, Zeus, Shiva, or all the other pagan pantheon heads. Alas, that’s the ultimate conclusion that OT literalism will lead you to and that is why I say it’s on it’s way to heresy.

Peoples say one must come to turns with reality, and in some cases they are right, but in other cases, it helps a man to have a healthy relationship with legends. (with a sense of wonder and myth).

I believe in many things that are considered laughable by science, because I take the view that unless I have seen everything I can’t disprove that there is no monster in that lake, no fairies in that forest. It’s not a belief like I have in God, and things necessary to salvation. Not a belief like in the concepts of Math, or Physics, but rather an openness to not knowing. And allowing the world to still be beautiful, and not mundane. To believe not everything is discovered, and that deep in the Amazon, deep in the Congo, might lie the Dragons that the Europeans and the Chinese hunted down. That every so often when you are not looking, the fairies still watch. Kind of like a medieval peasant way of thinking.

 

[Not_Sure_1]

I disagree. There is ample evidence that if something happened, it did not occur as advertised. I’m tired of the constant, and I mean constant, debate about this. God does not need science. Jesus raised the dead, gave sight to the blind and rose, bodily, from the dead Himself.

Why the great, burning need to reconcile science with the Bible? Science can’t study God or put the soul in the laboratory. I can see only one reason for some posts, to say that God did nothing and random, unintelligent forces did everything.

usatoday.com/tech/science/2007-04-12-pope-evolution_N.htm

Peace,
Ed

THIS

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

The point of the story of the satyr is that God has given us the knowledge necessary for salvation, all other knowledge that is unnecessary for salvation is open to speculation. For example, what creatures exist outside of the species we see, etc.

You’re missing my point.

Yes, I do believe in dragons, especially about the story of St. George.

Yeah sure. Cite a saint I actually have immense dislike for in terms iconography. And spare me, you have no idea what you’re suggesting if you actually believe a creature like that existed!

You don’t even know the implications of satyrs being real. I doubt you’re even aware of what satyrs themselves are capable of (as well as centaurs). Hint: This would be one of those cases where Harry Potter and World of Warcraft would actually be pretty accurate.

Do you believe every culture in the world can have a story about dragons, without one person ever encountering something like one (like a dinosaur). Remember we have found supposedly extinct animals still living.

Do you even know what dragons are like!? Look, I previously warned everyone on this thread about bringing in talk about dinos and dragons. You wanna know why? Here’s a brief background info on me: I used to be a dino-nut as a kid. I read books. I wanted to visit the Museum of Natural History (still to be realized sadly). Played dinosaur education games and even kept myself up to date with the occasional documentary from NatGeo and Discovery.

On the other hand, I’m a fantasy buff now. Care to guess what my favorite legendary creature is? That’s right. It’s one of the grandest and most powerful beasts ever conceived by human imagination.

Dragons:







When you speak of dragons, know that you do not speak of primitive, wingless reptiles that lumbered about the earth. You speak of a magnificent and glorious creature that symbolized POWER. There’s a good reason why these things are often so OP in modern fantasy. Because even in ancient times, the dragon was a beast that stood for POWER. In several cultures, it embodied the chaotic elements of nature. It had dominion over wind, rain, and lightning. Few creatures held the same symbolic value that rivaled the dragons.

Oh but no, you want to talk literal? Then you’ll have to accept that you believe in a creature that’s capable of doing a 9/11 by itself… and flying out without so much as a scratch.

As to your hero George, there’s some fantastical elements in that legend as well. Ever heard of the Paladin job class? Yeah. Classic holy-knight action there… even though I have just as much disdain for the profession. I’ll take sprouting my own wings and shooting fire over the whole shining armor routine.

If Satan just did attacks, people would become more nervous, realize that they need God, pray more, and become closer to him. Satan would be killing, but not taking souls. (Fear the one who can kill body and soul). A lot of the people were very pious in the past, because they were afraid about what lurked in the dark (God was the light that kept them going, and allowed them to sleep safe in their beds). People seem to have lost a fear of the devil, a fear of the unknown, and so now many believe they do not need God, and so continue to sin.

Man, I don’t know where to begin showing how wrong this is.

You’re saying exactly the things which trivialize our faith into nothing more than some trope in cheesy Christian fantasy.

“Our religion told the devils their time was up and it’s through the power of God that the laws of reality are in place.”

In other words, “our god is stronger than your god.” You’re saying it’s to protect us? No, that’s not what those on the other side of the fence will think. You sound like you know but you have no idea just how many people really hate God. If there is even a chance that what you say here is true, you’ll only cause more people to wish the Church destroyed so they can ‘be free to share the power of their demon masters’. They would WANT the Age of Mythology back.

Heck, I don’t blame them! If this is the kind of cruel stunt that God pulls just to get people to Heaven, then this is not the God that Church has been teaching about. You’re saying the very thing I’ve been warning against. You’re saying that God is using our reality as a way to keep people ‘safe’ and on ‘His side’.

And killing is better than taking souls? Last time I checked, they’re both the same thing in the fantasy that you’re espousing.

Besides, you have no idea how many idiots I know who’d actually go on to the devil’s side if he promised power. Look at the atheists. Look at the La Veyan satanists. Look at the neo-pagans who sincerely believe their gods will manifest such power. It’s like when you cite a testimony by former members of these groups, they’ll give you two more counter-testimonies from one of their own. You say demons’ll take much more from them but they’ll just laugh and show you how you’re being silly.

I think you need to calm down, and be more charitable with your speech.

No, you need to realize how tired (and irritating) views like yours are becoming to people on these boards.

To summarize, you’re saying that our religion is the reason why our world is so dead-pan boring. God likes our world boring. I guess Tolkien was wrong to describe this dreary existence as a prison. (Yeah, try googling that for a while if you think Catholics shouldn’t lambast this oh-so-holy reality.) In fact, why dream of Heaven at all if a boring world is the standard of one that has been ‘saved from the devil’s reign’?

At this point, it’s time to pull off the wool that you’ve been trying to get over people’s eyes. I don’t believe in a God that monotonously evil. I don’t believe God is some silly Deity of Banal Reality who had to make our world the dullest cosmology just to ‘end the devil’s reign’.

I believe that God had reasons to put the actual reality in place and that reality has hardly ever been violated (even by Him). Why? Because I view my Creator a lot more highly than something so cheesy as one that took out all the magic in the world just to be the ‘bigger god’.

P.S.

On a somewhat lighter not, even if the Loser Downstairs does prove to be something out of Diablo III and starts razing our world, I wouldn’t be all too thrilled at the arsenal we have at out side. Fighting demons by waving around a crucifix and relying too much on modern hardware is just not my style.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I believe in many things that are considered laughable by science, because I take the view that unless I have seen everything I can’t disprove that there is no monster in that lake, no fairies in that forest. It’s not a belief like I have in God, and things necessary to salvation. Not a belief like in the concepts of Math, or Physics, but rather an openness to not knowing. And allowing the world to still be beautiful, and not mundane. To believe not everything is discovered, and that deep in the Amazon, deep in the Congo, might lie the Dragons that the Europeans and the Chinese hunted down. That every so often when you are not looking, the fairies still watch. Kind of like a medieval peasant way of thinking.

With all due respect, your posts are starting to disturb me. Why? It’s because you’re sounding like the very bad sort of escapist that people warn about. You really have no clue as to what might really happen if the myths you spoke of were real.

That may sound uncharitable but I can’t find a better way to describe it right now. This is exactly the sort of unrealistic thinking that precedes things like delusions of grandeur and false hope.

 

[St_Francis]

No, you need to realize how tired (and irritating) views like yours are becoming to people on these boards.

Lost, this is just plain rude, for onr thing, and attributing your own oh-so-superior jadedness to others on this board is over the top.

You’re saying that God is using this reality to keep us “safe” and “on His side.”

I had to re-wrrite that from memory as I accidentally deleted it; hope I got it right.

I wanted tk reply to this because you’ve said it several times since I posted something about God’s wanting to keep us safe. This was in response to your mention of the prohibition against the occult. God prohibits us from the occult not because He wants to keep us from having fun with preternatural forces but because dabbling with the occult is actually dangerous to us. Remember the temptation offered at around the time of the Original Sin–and you shall be like gods…

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Precisely right. Atheists would have no line of attack if religionists were not so close-minded towards reality. Literalist creationism breeds atheism.

Yep. And if not atheism, it’s delusions that aren’t unlike those who think they’re living in a fantasy game.

I of course choose both religion and science. I am both Roman Catholic and a scientist (biochemist). For me there was never a conflict, but then, I never was a literalist.

Indeed. These people have no idea that the conflict between science and religion is the result of religion’s literalists having unhealthily high expectations of reality!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Lost, this is just plain rude, for onr thing, and attributing your own oh-so-superior jadedness to others on this board is over the top.

What’s over the top is repeating, parroting, and recycling the sort of shameful rhetoric that I had naively thought only fundamentalists shared.

I’ve read arguments like Not Sure’s for six years now. They never change. One would think after the many times it’s been proven dysfunctional, they’d either concede or come up with something more reasonable than the same old fairy tale vision of the world.

I wanted tk reply to this because you’ve said it several times since I posted something about God’s wanting to keep us safe. This was in response to your mention of the prohibition against the occult. God prohibits us from the occult not because He wants to keep us from having fun with preternatural forces but because dabbling with the occult is actually dangerous to us. Remember the temptation offered at around the time of the Original Sin–and you shall be like gods…

Are you even trying to prove me wrong?

You know, that’s it. I’m playing devil’s advocate. recites from List of Atypical Atheist 'Arguments’

“If God’s so powerful, why didn’t make us so we could have that sorta fun?”

See that? Those are the kind of silly questions that silly views such as literalism breed.

Again, you make God look like some boring Advocate of the Most Dull who uses The Powers of the Super-Boring to ‘keep His children safe’.

Heck, a real-life counterpart would be the sort of cheesy, overprotective authority figure who ends up being proven right. What is this? Nick Jr?

 

[buffalo]

You’re missing my point.

Yeah sure. Cite a saint I actually have immense dislike for in terms iconography. And spare me, you have no idea what you’re suggesting if you actually believe a creature like that existed!

You don’t even know the implications of satyrs being real. I doubt you’re even aware of what satyrs themselves are capable of (as well as centaurs). Hint: This would be one of those cases where Harry Potter and World of Warcraft would actually be pretty accurate.

Do you even know what dragons are like!? Look, I previously warned everyone on this thread about bringing in talk about dinos and dragons. You wanna know why? Here’s a brief background info on me: I used to be a dino-nut as a kid. I read books. I wanted to visit the Museum of Natural History (still to be realized sadly). Played dinosaur education games and even kept myself up to date with the occasional documentary from NatGeo and Discovery.

On the other hand, I’m a fantasy buff now. Care to guess what my favorite legendary creature is? That’s right. It’s one of the grandest and most powerful beasts ever conceived by human imagination.

Dragons:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Zmei_Gorinich_(colour_fixed).jpg

http://www.rubberslug.com/user/4ecb92e8cab349fbb47d1c0d600e9694/44593-4879571-flame of recca 33.jpg

http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq81/DarkHorusLVL12/RedDragonArchfiendAssaultModeCRMS-E.png

When you speak of dragons, know that you do not speak of primitive, wingless reptiles that lumbered about the earth. You speak of a magnificent and glorious creature that symbolized POWER. There’s a good reason why these things are often so OP in modern fantasy. Because even in ancient times, the dragon was a beast that stood for POWER. In several cultures, it embodied the chaotic elements of nature. It had dominion over wind, rain, and lightning. Few creatures held the same symbolic value that rivaled the dragons.

Oh but no, you want to talk literal? Then you’ll have to accept that you believe in a creature that’s capable of doing a 9/11 by itself… and flying out without so much as a scratch.

As to your hero George, there’s some fantastical elements in that legend as well. Ever heard of the Paladin job class? Yeah. Classic holy-knight action there… even though I have just as much disdain for the profession. I’ll take sprouting my own wings and shooting fire over the whole shining armor routine.

Man, I don’t know where to begin showing how wrong this is.

You’re saying exactly the things which trivialize our faith into nothing more than some trope in cheesy Christian fantasy.

“Our religion told the devils their time was up and it’s through the power of God that the laws of reality are in place.”

In other words, “our god is stronger than your god.” You’re saying it’s to protect us? No, that’s not what those on the other side of the fence will think. You sound like you know but you have no idea just how many people really hate God. If there is even a chance that what you say here is true, you’ll only cause more people to wish the Church destroyed so they can ‘be free to share the power of their demon masters’. They would WANT the Age of Mythology back.

Heck, I don’t blame them! If this is the kind of cruel stunt that God pulls just to get people to Heaven, then this is not the God that Church has been teaching about. You’re saying the very thing I’ve been warning against. You’re saying that God is using our reality as a way to keep people ‘safe’ and on ‘His side’.

And killing is better than taking souls? Last time I checked, they’re both the same thing in the fantasy that you’re espousing.

Besides, you have no idea how many idiots I know who’d actually go on to the devil’s side if he promised power. Look at the atheists. Look at the La Veyan satanists. Look at the neo-pagans who sincerely believe their gods will manifest such power. It’s like when you cite a testimony by former members of these groups, they’ll give you two more counter-testimonies from one of their own. You say demons’ll take much more from them but they’ll just laugh and show you how you’re being silly.

No, you need to realize how tired (and irritating) views like yours are becoming to people on these boards.

To summarize, you’re saying that our religion is the reason why our world is so dead-pan boring. God likes our world boring. I guess Tolkien was wrong to describe this dreary existence as a prison. (Yeah, try googling that for a while if you think Catholics shouldn’t lambast this oh-so-holy reality.) In fact, why dream of Heaven at all if a boring world is the standard of one that has been ‘saved from the devil’s reign’?

At this point, it’s time to pull off the wool that you’ve been trying to get over people’s eyes. I don’t believe in a God that monotonously evil. I don’t believe God is some silly Deity of Banal Reality who had to make our world the dullest cosmology just to ‘end the devil’s reign’.

I believe that God had reasons to put the actual reality in place and that reality has hardly ever been violated (even by Him). Why? Because I view my Creator a lot more highly than something so cheesy as one that took out all the magic in the world just to be the ‘bigger god’.

P.S.

On a somewhat lighter not, even if the Loser Downstairs does prove to be something out of Diablo III and starts razing our world, I wouldn’t be all too thrilled at the arsenal we have at out side. Fighting demons by waving around a crucifix and relying too much on modern hardware is just not my style.

Dinosaur as a term was coined in the 1800’s, before that they were known as dragons.

 

[St_Francis]

What’s over the top is repeating, parroting, and recycling the sort of shameful rhetoric that I had naively thought only fundamentalists shared.

I’ve read arguments like Not Sure’s for six years now. They never change. One would think after the many times it’s been proven dysfunctional, they’d either concede or come up with something more reasonable than the same old fairy tale vision of the world.

If you don’t want to address Not Sure’s argument “yet again,” then ignore him. Don’t be so rude, and certainly don’t attribute your feelings onto others.

Are you even trying to prove me wrong?

No, actually I was trying to engage in conversation, finding out what your ideas are, sometimes countering them with objections. I am still trying to get a hold of what you are saying because it is very new to me, not something I have encountered before.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Dinosaur as a term was coined in the 1800’s, before that they were known as dragons.

That barely addresses the point. Dragons are physiologically different from dinosaurs on so many drastic levels.

By the way, the logic of that dragon documentary you linked some pages back had a flaw in its premise.

You still wondering why dragons are prevalent in many of earth’s cultures? The answer lies in comparative mythology, not evolutionary biology or paleontology.

 

[buffalo]

That barely addresses the point. Dragons are physiologically different from dinosaurs on so many drastic levels.

By the way, the logic of that dragon documentary you linked some pages back had a flaw in its premise.

You still wondering why dragons are prevalent in many of earth’s cultures? The answer lies in comparative mythology, not evolutionary biology or paleontology.

The dragon documentary is only one part of the equation. It shows how dragons go way back and were part of constant tradition.

I am interested in the physiological differences though. Have a list?