In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins

[Not_Sure_1]

Oh, for those who can spare a little more than an hour, and want to be entertained on the topic of the Church and evolution, listen to one of the Coulomb talks.

Specifically, this one on evolution. It is hilarious, but it has a point to show that believing in evolution could either be a danger to your faith, or more likely to the faith of your children.

It is absolutely hilarious, although I somewhat cringe on the joke about His Holiness John Paul II’s accent, its a one off joke though, not meant to be disrespectful, and was told when he was still very much alive.

Enjoy

tumblarhouse.com/audio/files/Evolution.mp3

 

[St_Francis]

What you obviously fail and continue failing to comprehend are the macro-level effects of the latter happening. What you’re missing in lynn’s post is that much of the OT, Genesis in particular, is so heavily steeped in the tropes of creation myth.

You say it’s a myth; I say God can do whatever He wants.

Secondly, I can only imagine more people will be angry at God than pleased because they’ve lived their whole lives being literally bound by laws of science.

Yeah, life is rough when you don’t get to be one of the special people who get to wander in the desert for 40 years eating the same thing day after day…

Do you believe in the miracle at Fatima? Do you believe in the 80 approved miracles at Lourdes?

Now all of a sudden

Well, not that suddenly–you and I have already been around about this once in this thread

you’re actually proposing that there was a time in Earth’s history when worshiping demons and false gods actually granted power that broke those laws. You say God ‘had His reasons’?

I think that people can still be possessed by demons–as does the Church. I believe that people who worship or try to deal with demons can be possessed, which is why it’s, like, *forbidden. *I don’t think that people were granted any power inthat situation, tho, Satan has always been a liar, and liars are willing to lie in word or in deed in order to get what they want. And what better to gain entry than by giving the illusion of power?

I say such a God is nothing more than a selfish, slave driver forcing people to live in a dull reality just so He can keep them from going to other ‘gods’ for power. Again, you’ve reduced Him to just another participant in the Pantheon Games.

I guess you have no comprehension of true evil, from which God protects us.

If you review your theology, that in fact borders on blasphemy/heresy (if it isn’t one and/or the other already).

Your take on my understanding of the possibility of Genesis’s being literally true does not mean that I am in heresy for proposing something held by the majority of Cathics for many centuries.

 

[buffalo]

You say it’s a myth; I say God can do whatever He wants.

Yeah, life is rough when you don’t get to be one of the special people who get to wander in the desert for 40 years eating the same thing day after day…

Do you believe in the miracle at Fatima? Do you believe in the 80 approved miracles at Lourdes?

Well, not that suddenly–you and I have already been around about this once in this thread

I think that people can still be possessed by demons–as does the Church. I believe that people who worship or try to deal with demons can be possessed, which is why it’s, like, *forbidden. *I don’t think that people were granted any power inthat situation, tho, Satan has always been a liar, and liars are willing to lie in word or in deed in order to get what they want. And what better to gain entry than by giving the illusion of power?

I guess you have no comprehension of true evil, from which God protects us.

Your take on my understanding of the possibility of Genesis’s being literally true does not mean that I am in heresy for proposing something held by the majority of Cathics for many centuries.

Myth does not equal not true.

 

[edwest2]

Myth does not equal not true.

For too many people, myth is a fake story about some great deed. There are lots of books on mythology and that is precisely what they are - stories about things that never happened.

Peace,
Ed

 

[buffalo]

Myth

Definition of MYTH

1
a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon b : parable, allegory

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You say it’s a myth; I say God can do whatever He wants.

Uh-huh. Just like Zeus right?
With people like you representing the faith, it’s no wonder Our Lord gets compared to false deities.

Yeah, life is rough when you don’t get to be one of the special people who get to wander in the desert for 40 years eating the same thing day after day…

That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about being forced to comply with the laws of gravity, energy conservation or what-have-you but then one day wake up in a world where you could shoot sun-fire from your hands from worshiping Ra.

Yeah, I’m sure Christians and non-Christian alike would be pleased with God for suddenly revealing the world to be actually like that.

Do you believe in the miracle at Fatima? Do you believe in the 80 approved miracles at Lourdes?

I neither believe nor disbelieve because my faith doesn’t depend on private revelations. Don’t think that’s permissible? Ask the Church.

Besides, sun dancing in the sky and miracle spring water versus… ten bizarre plagues, a pillar of fire, a magical ark, two described legendary monsters, and entire cities razed by fire and brimstone.

There’s a stretch between the two miracle groups. Try comparing them for once.

I think that people can still be possessed by demons–as does the Church. I believe that people who worship or try to deal with demons can be possessed, which is why it’s, like, *forbidden. *I don’t think that people were granted any power inthat situation, tho, Satan has always been a liar, and liars are willing to lie in word or in deed in order to get what they want. And what better to gain entry than by giving the illusion of power?

Illusion? LOL! Then you can’t possibly propose that literal accounts are true. Again, you either believe that Egyptian pagans had the literal power to turn water into blood or they didn’t. You cannot believe theirs was an illusion whilst Moses presented the real thing. As much as I liked Prince of Egypt, that actually leads to a theologically inaccurate idea of what the Church teaches God is.

I guess you have no comprehension of true evil, from which God protects us.

Right. Sure. Wake me up when the likes of Marilyn Manson are atop of a spiky throne crafted out of the Chrysler building whilst his demon masters are trashing the city.

I mean the devil is sooooo powerful that God placed the laws of reality some time in history to ‘protect’ us and keep us worshiping Him.

Your take on my understanding of the possibility of Genesis’s being literally true does not mean that I am in heresy for proposing something held by the majority of Cathics for many centuries.

No you are in heresy when that something turns out to contradict what the Church teaches on the nature of God. A majority of Catholics believed in other silly superstitions during the Middle Ages. That didn’t mean they were true.

Myth

Definition of MYTH

1
a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon b : parable, allegory

Myth does not equal not true.

Depends on what kind of truth you are talking about. If we’re talking their literal aspect, then of course they’re not true. There’s no such things as fairies, jotuns, or griffins.

Myths serve to portray some abstract concept that don’t deal with the material, empirical reality.

That does not mean in any way that they should be taken literally. It actually diminishes their value by focusing on what’s trivial.

 

[Not_Sure_1]

Uh-huh. Just like Zeus right?
With people like you representing the faith, it’s no wonder Our Lord gets compared to false deities.

That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about being forced to comply with the laws of gravity, energy conservation or what-have-you but then one day wake up in a world where you could shoot sun-fire from your hands from worshiping Ra.

Yeah, I’m sure Christians and non-Christian alike would be pleased with God for suddenly revealing the world to be actually like that.

I neither believe nor disbelieve because my faith doesn’t depend on private revelations. Don’t think that’s permissible? Ask the Church.

Besides, sun dancing in the sky and miracle spring water versus… ten bizarre plagues, a pillar of fire, a magical ark, two described legendary monsters, and entire cities razed by fire and brimstone.

There’s a stretch between the two miracle groups. Try comparing them for once.

Illusion? LOL! Then you can’t possibly propose that literal accounts are true. Again, you either believe that Egyptian pagans had the literal power to turn water into blood or they didn’t. You cannot believe theirs was an illusion whilst Moses presented the real thing. As much as I liked Prince of Egypt, that actually leads to a theologically inaccurate idea of what the Church teaches God is.

Right. Sure. Wake me up when the likes of Marilyn Manson are atop of a spiky throne crafted out of the Chrysler building whilst his demon masters are trashing the city.

I mean the devil is sooooo powerful that God placed the laws of reality some time in history to ‘protect’ us and keep us worshiping Him.

No you are in heresy when that something turns out to contradict what the Church teaches on the nature of God. A majority of Catholics believed in other silly superstitions during the Middle Ages. That didn’t mean they were true.

Depends on what kind of truth you are talking about. If we’re talking their literal aspect, then of course they’re not true. There’s no such things as fairies, jotuns, or griffins.

Myths serve to portray some abstract concept that don’t deal with the material, empirical reality.

That does not mean in any way that they should be taken literally. It actually diminishes their value by focusing on what’s trivial.

Well, St.Anthony met a satyr and a centaur in the desert, and the satyr asked St. Anthony to pray for him to God.

 

[St_Francis]

Uh-huh. Just like Zeus right?
With people like you representing the faith, it’s no wonder Our Lord gets compared to false deities.

So you don’t think God can do whatever He wants?

That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about being forced to comply with the laws of gravity, energy conservation or what-have-you but then one day wake up in a world where you could shoot sun-fire from your hands from worshiping Ra.

Where is that in the Bible?

Yeah, I’m sure Christians and non-Christian alike would be pleased with God for suddenly revealing the world to be actually like that.

II neither believe nor disbelieve because my faith doesn’t depend on private revelations. Don’t think that’s permissible? Ask the Church.

I know it’s permissable.

Besides, sun dancing in the sky and miracle spring water versus… ten bizarre plagues, a pillar of fire, a magical ark, two described legendary monsters, and entire cities razed by fire and brimstone.

There’s a stretch between the two miracle groups. Try comparing them for once.

I guess it depends on your point of view.

Illusion? LOL! Then you can’t possibly propose that literal accounts are true. Again, you either believe that Egyptian pagans had the literal power to turn water into blood or they didn’t. You cannot believe theirs was an illusion whilst Moses presented the real thing. As much as I liked Prince of Egypt, that actually leads to a theologically inaccurate idea of what the Church teaches God is.

Sure I could, but that’s not what I meant. What I meant was that the devil gives people the illusion of power, of being able to do things, when it is actually the devil doing it.

From the Haydock Commentary on Ex 7:11: Ver. 11. Magicians. Jannes and Mambres, or Jambres, 2 Timothy iii. 8. (Challoner) — The pagans represented Moses as the greatest of magicians. (Pliny, Natural History xxx. 1; Justin xxxvi.) — They also, &c. Hebrew has three terms: “wise men, diviners, and magicians;” but the two last seem to be of the same import. “The enchanters did the like by their secret practices,” either by words or by actions. Some say these operations were real; others affirm they were only apparent, and mere delusions. (Calmet) — “Whoever believes that any thing can be made, or any creature changed or transmuted into another species or appearance, except by the Creator himself, is undoubtedly an infidel, and worse than a pagan.” (Council of Orange.) See St. Augustine, q. 21, de Trin. iii. 7; St. Thomas Aquinas, 2, 2, 9, 17, a 2. — The devil deceived the senses of the beholders; or brought real serpents, &c., thither. (Menochius)

From the Haydock Commentary on Ex 8:7: Ver. 8. Pray ye to the Lord, &c. By this it appears, that though the magicians, by the help of the devil, could bring frogs, yet they could not take these away: God being pleased to abridge in this the power of Satan. So we see they could not afterwards produce the lesser insects; and in this restraint of the power of the devil, were forced to acknowledge the finger of God.

Overall, it was not through the personal power of anyone, not even Moses, that these events occurred.*

Right. Sure. Wake me up when the likes of Marilyn Manson are atop of a spiky throne crafted out of the Chrysler building whilst his demon masters are trashing the city.

This is a strawman–well, it doesn’t rise to the level of an argument, so a strawman statement?

And you mocked me because I mentioned what CS Lewis wrote about people doing just this!

I mean the devil is sooooo powerful that God placed the laws of reality some time in history to ‘protect’ us and keep us worshiping Him.

I was referring back to a previous comment you made about warnings against involvement withthe occult–I’m sorry, I should have made that clear.

No you are in heresy when that something turns out to contradict what the Church teaches on the nature of God. A majority of Catholics believed in other silly superstitions during the Middle Ages. That didn’t mean they were true.

I’m afraid I have no idea what you mean. Maybe you could provide a link to a Church document which explains that teaching about the nature of God?

 

[buffalo]

The tree of life has fallen and is now a bush. Now this…

Phylogeny: Rewriting evolution

	 		 					 								Tiny molecules called microRNAs are tearing apart traditional ideas about the animal family tree.

Kevin Peterson grabs a pen and starts to scribble an evolutionary tree on the paper tablecloth of a bar in Hanover, New Hampshire. Drawing upside down to make it easier for me to see, he maps out the standard phylogenetic tale for placental mammals. First, Peterson scratches a line leading to elephants, which branched away from the rest of the placentals around 90 million years ago. Then came dogs, followed by primates (including humans) and finally rodents — all within a frenetic 20 million years. This family tree is backed up by reams of genomic and morphological data, and is well accepted by the palaeontological community. Yet, says Peterson, the tree is all wrong.
A molecular palaeobiologist at nearby Dartmouth College, Peterson has been reshaping phylogenetic trees for the past few years, ever since he pioneered a technique that uses short molecules called microRNAs to work out evolutionary branchings. He has now sketched out a radically different diagram for mammals: one that aligns humans more closely with elephants than with rodents.
“I’ve looked at thousands of microRNA genes, and I can’t find a single example that would support the traditional tree,” he says. The technique “just changes everything about our understanding of mammal evolution”.



http://www.nature.com/news/phylogeny-rewriting-evolution-1.10885

more…

 

[buffalo]

So now where does evo stand? How much more do we have to learn before they finally will admit evo has to go.

  **[Charles Darwin's tree of life is 'wrong and misleading', claim scientists](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/4312355/Charles-Darwins-tree-of-life-is-wrong-and-misleading-claim-scientists.html) **

     ** Charles Darwin's tree of life, which shows how species are related, is "    wrong" and "misleading", claim scientists.   **

…Researchers say although for much of the past 150 years biology has largely concerned itself with filling in the details of the tree it is now obsolete and needs to be discarded.

Dr Eric Bapteste, an evolutionary biologist at the Pierre and Marie Curie University in Paris, said: “For a long time the holy grail was to build a tree of life. We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality.”
The discovery of the structure of DNA in 1953 – whose pioneers believed it would provide proof of Darwin’s tree – opened up new vistas for evolutionary biology.
But current research is finding a far more complex scenario than Darwin could have imagined – particularly in relation to bacteria and single-celled organisms.
These simple life forms represent most of Earth’s biomass and diversity – not to mention the first two-thirds of the planet’s history.
Many of their species swap genes back and forth, or engage in gene duplication, recombination, gene loss or gene transfers from multiple sources.
Dr John Dupré, a philosopher of biology at Exeter University, said: “If there is a tree of life it’s a small irregular structure growing out of the web of life.”
More fundamentally recent research suggests the evolution of animals and plants isn’t exactly tree-like either.
Dr Dupré said: “There are problems even in that little corner.” Having uprooted the tree of unicellular life biologists are now taking their axes to the remaining branches.
Dr Bapteste said: **“If you don’t have a tree of life what does it mean for evolutionary biology. At first it’s very scary – but in the past couple of years people have begun to free their minds.” **

more…

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Well, St.Anthony met a satyr and a centaur in the desert, and the satyr asked St. Anthony to pray for him to God.

Uh huh… I’m sure you also believe in dragons too huh?

So you don’t think God can do whatever He wants?

I don’t think God is some tyrant who has to resort to petty pagan deity tactics to have a good relationship with His children.

Where is that in the Bible?

What, you believe ancient gods can turn water into blood, staves into snakes, and don’t think the Egyptian sun god can’t perform sun-related magic attacks?

Sure I could, but that’s not what I meant. What I meant was that the devil gives people the illusion of power, of being able to do things, when it is actually the devil doing it.

Uh-huh. Sure, even though you’re ignoring the main point that you’re saying the devil can do all sorts of crazy, reality-bending baloney.

If he really could, he could’ve conquered the world in less then a year. Why doesn’t he?

And again, don’t say “Because God no longer permits him”. You’ll cause more people to hate God because you reduced Him to just another deity who uses divine-bully tactics. In this case, said tactics are the bland laws of reality.

Overall, it was not through the personal power of anyone, not even Moses, that these events occurred.

Do you even know what I’m talking about when I say things like Ancient War of the Gods and Pantheon Games?

That’s exactly what I mean! It’s the whole, stupid “My god is bigger than your god” debate all over again. The Egyptians did it. The Greeks did it.

And now, you want to drag our Almighty Father down to that same, childish level.

I was referring back to a previous comment you made about warnings against involvement withthe occult–I’m sorry, I should have made that clear.

Once again, you demonstrate more logical fallacies. Just because I don’t believe that the devil can perform oh-so-evil dark magics that turn people into toads or cause his minions to literally manifest as giant monsters doesn’t mean I deny his actual existence.

My belief in him is just more well-aligned with actual, scientific reality.

I belief I said this before but just because you freak people out by causing your possessed victims to slowly puke nails doesn’t mean I’ll be impressed.

I repeat: wake me up when the Devil is capable of decimating an entire fleet of U.S. navy warships, a squadron of F-22s, and at least half a dozen battalions of the American Armed Forces.

That’s when I’ll be scared.

I’m afraid I have no idea what you mean. Maybe you could provide a link to a Church document which explains that teaching about the nature of God?

How about every single verse and teaching that tells us that God isn’t some pagan deity that wilfully punishes people for His own ends?

(If I were you, I’d start with the Catechism.)

 

[St_Francis]

To be honest, Lost, I can’t really figure out where you are coming from. You seem to consider the OT to be equal to current computer fantasy games and to pagan mythology; you seem to be thoroughly disgusted that you can’t live like a character in Lord of the Rings, and you seem very angry with God for not making a D&D world but also mad that anyone would think that the OT might actually be true while considering people heretical for believing that God might be as He is portrayed in the OT.

Uh huh… I’m sure you also believe in dragons too huh?

I don’t think God is some tyrant who has to resort to petty pagan deity tactics to have a good relationship with His children.

What, you believe ancient gods can turn water into blood, staves into snakes, and don’t think the Egyptian sun god can’t perform sun-related magic attacks?

Uh-huh. Sure, even though you’re ignoring the main point that you’re saying the devil can do all sorts of crazy, reality-bending baloney.

If he really could, he could’ve conquered the world in less then a year. Why doesn’t he?

And again, don’t say “Because God no longer permits him”. You’ll cause more people to hate God because you reduced Him to just another deity who uses divine-bully tactics. In this case, said tactics are the bland laws of reality.

Do you even know what I’m talking about when I say things like Ancient War of the Gods and Pantheon Games?

That’s exactly what I mean! It’s the whole, stupid “My god is bigger than your god” debate all over again. The Egyptians did it. The Greeks did it.

And now, you want to drag our Almighty Father down to that same, childish level.

Once again, you demonstrate more logical fallacies. Just because I don’t believe that the devil can perform oh-so-evil dark magics that turn people into toads or cause his minions to literally manifest as giant monsters doesn’t mean I deny his actual existence.

My belief in him is just more well-aligned with actual, scientific reality.

I belief I said this before but just because you freak people out by causing your possessed victims to slowly puke nails doesn’t mean I’ll be impressed.

I repeat: wake me up when the Devil is capable of decimating an entire fleet of U.S. navy warships, a squadron of F-22s, and at least half a dozen battalions of the American Armed Forces.

That’s when I’ll be scared.

How about every single verse and teaching that tells us that God isn’t some pagan deity that wilfully punishes people for His own ends?

(If I were you, I’d start with the Catechism.)

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lynnvinc,

Let me start off by saying that I personally think the ‘Big Bang’ (totally enabled by God) was the mechanical means God chose to begin Creation. And I can add that Evolution (again, totally enabled by God) is how life on Earth happened. And, be sure to add that through a special act of creation, God infused man with an immortal soul made in the image of God. Now, on to the work at hand.

I realize that you think Creationism is based on, ‘…an extremely limited view…’ and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But, as I read your post, it really sounded like you were putting down those who - with just as much zeal - believe in their position as you believe in yours. This appears to be rather uncharitable.

Being ‘wowed’ by God is a daily event for me, too! Just look at what God has created - and this is just the stuff we can see and know about. We are constatly learning about more and of His wonderful creation. But, the fact that others see things differently - and sill include God as the center of Creation - should be respected. Yes, there are Atheists out there who are truly lost souls - and every blooming flower that causes us to praise God for His Goodness - is pretty much lost on the Atheist who tramples the flower under foot.

But the comment that actually moved me to responding was this: " I’m afraid the creationists pretty much weaken my and others’ beliefs, so I just have to ignore them before they can do harm to my faith in God (and I think they do much much harm to others’ faith as well, not to mention draw them into sin). " May I suggest that if you believe that your Faith is weakened by the beliefs of others who believe in God - but think God took a different approach - you start praying and working on strengthing your faith. And, really, such a post as you have presented is hardly an example of ‘ignoring them’.

By developing a strong Faith - through the Grace of God - we can keep to our own view of which theory we think is right … and appreciate the efforts of others in their work to promote the work of God … based on the theory they think is right. The Catholic Church is big enough to embrace both views without diminishing the believes of either group. I think this is an excellent role model for us to follow.

God bless

Again, I’m saying that is an extremely limited view. If science tells us something it is telling us something about creation which God created, and perhaps also telling us something about God (though our fininte minds are incapable of grasping the Infinite, so it can only give us glimpses or guesses about God). Just bec atheists have problems with the spiritual dimension (the seen & unseen, the infinite, the beyond, the I & Thou), it doesn’t follow that I should have trouble with science or what they are speculating.

Everything in science wows me only more about God and strengthens my belief - big bang, evolution, whatever they find, hypothesize, theorize. I’m afraid the creationists pretty much weaken my and others’ beliefs, so I just have to ignore them before they can do harm to my faith in God (and I think they do much much harm to others’ faith as well, not to mention draw them into sin). Sorry, but that’s how I perceive and experience it. Others may differ in their personal experiences and understandings. I’m just happy Catholics like JPII and BXVI also believe in evolution, and many Christians actually find the big bang much more in keeping with Christianity than the previous ideas (which as I mentioned are a bit more like Hindu ideas of a constantly cyclical regenerative universe).

 

[HelenRose]

This report is scary. That’s really all I have to say, it’s just horrifying. It’s tough to even believe it’s accurate. What is going on with science education in the U.S.? Who is teaching our children, Kent Hovind?

It’s common that I will run into someone who is nominally well-educated, but doesn’t even have the most basic grasp as to what common ancestry truly means.

These people will say, for example, “I don’t believe I came from a monkey!” This is not… what… common… ancestry… means… :banghead: :banghead::banghead:

Does this really have anything to do with feeding the poor, clothing the hungry, giving shelter to the homeless.

I to have friends who are “creationists” Their service to the community is much greater than mine. Their love for people is far greater than mine. I may have a better grasp of scientific concecpts (maybe) but that does not hold a candle to what is really important.

 

[vz71]

The tree of life has fallen and is now a bush. Now this…

Phylogeny: Rewriting evolution

                                                                   Tiny molecules called microRNAs are tearing apart traditional ideas about the animal family tree.

All of this still has the same problem as before…

What is the mechanism for speciation?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

To be honest, Lost, I can’t really figure out where you are coming from. You seem to consider the OT to be equal to current computer fantasy games and to pagan mythology; you seem to be thoroughly disgusted that you can’t live like a character in Lord of the Rings, and you seem very angry with God for not making a D&D world but also mad that anyone would think that the OT might actually be true while considering people heretical for believing that God might be as He is portrayed in the OT.

Of course I hate this reality. I won’t deny that. I simply hate it more that delusional creationists add insult to injury. I’ve already had science bash my fantasies. I don’t need the embarrassing tirades of anti-scientific religious putting salt on my wounds.

You make the false assumption that I am angry at God. That just proves you haven’t really been reading my posts. What I said is that I would definitely be upset with our Maker IF people like you turned out to be right. I’d been denied by the laws of science only to find out that such a denial had been God’s doing? I wouldn’t hesitate to at least roar out loud, “WHAT ARE YOU PLAYING AT CREATOR!?”

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Not Sure,

Let me get this straight -

The Catholic Church has not adopted as a matter of Faith a particular view of how Creation happened. The Catholic Church has condemned the Atheistic model of creation that eliminates God’s Power from the process - and these are the only positions taken from the Church.

You are claiming that those who believe that God chose to use Evolution as the means for enabling life on planet Earth - are in danger of losing their Faith and are endangering their children with such a belief. How can this be? Recall that the Church has reviewed this (God driven Evolution) and found it NOT TO BE a danger to Faith - but has reviewed Atheistic Evolution (random acts over an infinite time period finally lead to where we are) and soundly condemned this as a danger to Faith.

I hope to get to your link this afternoon.

God bless

Oh, for those who can spare a little more than an hour, and want to be entertained on the topic of the Church and evolution, listen to one of the Coulomb talks.

Specifically, this one on evolution. It is hilarious, but it has a point to show that believing in evolution could either be a danger to your faith, or more likely to the faith of your children.

It is absolutely hilarious, although I somewhat cringe on the joke about His Holiness John Paul II’s accent, its a one off joke though, not meant to be disrespectful, and was told when he was still very much alive.

Enjoy

tumblarhouse.com/audio/files/Evolution.mp3

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lost Wanderer,

I think you have been very uncharitable to St. Francis. You may truly believe that God chose a very slow and gradual process for Creation - beginning with the Big Bang - and, as a matter of fact, that is the theory that I believe, too. But, these attacks on Creationists is strictly uncalled for.

That Creationists attack those of us who go beyond the literal Genesis account of Creation is really not material. The Catholic Church - the Church we both believe in - has not condemned either the Creationist’s model or the God-driven Elolutionary model. What it has condemned is the Atheistic model that tries to explain all as though God does not exist.

Personally, I think we would all do well to exercise more charity in discussing the sincerely held beliefs of those who believe in God - just differe on the means He Chose to bring about Creation. What I am proposing goes totally counter to the view of the ‘fantasy world’ that has only ‘black hats’ for the bad guys and ‘white hats’ for the good ones. Average individuals have no place in the extreme setting of fantasy - and this is hardly a good preparation for the real world were most of us have ‘grey hats’ on a lot of the time!

God bless

What you obviously fail and continue failing to comprehend are the macro-level effects of the latter happening. What you’re missing in lynn’s post is that much of the OT, Genesis in particular, is so heavily steeped in the tropes of creation myth.

Secondly, I can only imagine more people will be angry at God than pleased because they’ve lived their whole lives being literally bound by laws of science.

Now all of a sudden you’re actually proposing that there was a time in Earth’s history when worshiping demons and false gods actually granted power that broke those laws. You say God ‘had His reasons’? I say such a God is nothing more than a selfish, slave driver forcing people to live in a dull reality just so He can keep them from going to other ‘gods’ for power. Again, you’ve reduced Him to just another participant in the Pantheon Games.

If you review your theology, that in fact borders on blasphemy/heresy (if it isn’t one and/or the other already).

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lost Wanderer,

Let me say that for those of us who are not really familiar with the inner workings of fantasy world games and characters - yours has not been an especially easy set of posts to follow. So, maybe I have not understood all you have been posting.

You do, however, make a serious mistake when you claim that you would be upset with God if He did ‘x’ instead of the ‘y’ you have expected from Him. Think about that - how can anyone hold a delusional thought about God and claim to be upset if God reveals the Truth to them. This is serious material and one I would advise that you reconsider. None of us have the inside track to Truth. Our Faith in the Catholic Church is our Guide - and this more then any fantasy world should be the determining factor.

Part of growing up, as St. Paul identified, is putting away the things of a child (1Cor 13:11). And, really, when you claim that you ‘…hate this reality…’ (rather have the fantasy world) this raised a very big flag in my mind. The idea of being an integrated person is that we can effectively deal with reality - hating it, as a general concept, leads to real emotinal and psychological problems. We can hate certain aspects of reality (e.g., the killing of innocent civilians in the Middle East, the wholsale abortion of millions of innocent lives in our own country, etc.) but this is different from ‘hating reality’ and wanting fantasy.

God bless

Of course I hate this reality. I won’t deny that. I simply hate it more that delusional creationists add insult to injury. I’ve already had science bash my fantasies. I don’t need the embarrassing tirades of anti-scientific religious putting salt on my wounds.

You make the false assumption that I am angry at God. That just proves you haven’t really been reading my posts. What I said is that I would definitely be upset with our Maker IF people like you turned out to be right. I’d been denied by the laws of science only to find out that such a denial had been God’s doing? I wouldn’t hesitate to at least roar out loud, “WHAT ARE YOU PLAYING AT CREATOR!?”

 

[St_Francis]

Of course I hate this reality. I won’t deny that. I simply hate it more that delusional creationists add insult to injury. I’ve already had science bash my fantasies. I don’t need the embarrassing tirades of anti-scientific religious putting salt on my wounds.

So, if I understand you correctly, you used to have what you now call fantasies… what exactly do you mean by that? You have a vivid, sparkling way of expressing yourself (I mean that as a compliment), but you have included so many images that I am not sure what you might mean… that the OT was true? That Zeus, etc, was true?

And then, you say, science bashed your fantasies? By explaining how the world “really” works? Or…?

You make the false assumption that I am angry at God. That just proves you haven’t really been reading my posts.

I’m sorry to have misunderstood what you meant.

What I said is that I would definitely be upset with our Maker IF people like you turned out to be right. I’d been denied by the laws of science only to find out that such a denial had been God’s doing? I wouldn’t hesitate to at least roar out loud, “WHAT ARE YOU PLAYING AT CREATOR!?”

I think I understand better what you are saying, which is that if you discovered the OT stories were true, you would be upset at all the back and forth, *not * that if the OT stories were true, *they *would diminish your view of God.

Do I now seem to have a better understanding of what you are saying?