In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins

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Personally, I see the benefits of the evolution model in the medical arena. But the evolution model cannot fully agree with Catholic teaching because God directly creates the spiritual soul. The spiritual principle in human nature does not evolve from the material anatomy.
Perhaps God influenced the process directly and then infused the soul into the species when he was ready…or when the basic hardware was ready for an immortal soul.

But that removes natural selection and mutation, and the process could no longer be properly called evolution.

But it would have the benefit of continuing the use in ‘the medical arena’ as you call it.

Just a thought. Interesting speculation though.
 
The VAST amounts of evidence regarding human origin are based on a select number of quality research papers that deal with specialized issues. Please note that I sincerely respect the scientists who have done the research. However, the evidence for these issues does not warrant an universal exclusion of the possibility of Adam and Eve as sole founders of the human species.
If by select number you mean “not a lot” then you are wrong. There are tons and tons of fossils, plus genetic studies and other related fields have confirmed what the fossils show. Of course not every detail is known, nor are the details known set in stone (bc that’s the way science is).
humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species

Granny, I know humans are a special interest of yours. But when it comes to the physical, material aspect of the human species, we are no different than animals. We evolved just like animals and by that I mean
Individuals don’t evolve, populations do.
One has to keep in mind that science research deals with both possibilities and probabilities.

For example. Before European explorers reached Australia, one could conclude that probably all swans are white. Yet, we know that black swans are possible. link: svswans.com/black.html

If you have some favorite research, out of the vast amount of evidence which you are referring to, I would like to review it. However, upfront I will say that even with today’s technology and amazing computer programming, there is still the fact that one is dealing with the same limitations as before. These limitations are basically those of the pre-history material/physical domain which is proper to the natural sciences. Human nature is more than a rotting anatomy.

Please, what are the specific falsifiable claims which you are alluding to?
When the Catholic Church stays in the spiritual domain, it’s all good. For instance, saying God created human souls at once, they did not evolve.
When the Catholic Church says all humans are descended from an original pair (or similar wording), they stray from the spiritual domain into the physical. They say God-guided evolution is okay, man from lesser beings is okay, etc etc, great, but then they say all mankind is descended from these 2 individuals…But that is contradictory to how evolution works!
 
They say God-guided evolution is okay, man from lesser beings is okay, etc etc, great, but then they say all mankind is descended from these 2 individuals…But that is contradictory to how evolution works!
Then perhaps evolution just does not work.

I think I said it a few posts ago…science will catch up.
😉

Not that there is not good science there, but they simply do not have all of the pieces to form a complete picture.
Present information, I do not see it working.
 
:eek:
I just lost a detailed response to you. Basically, I was trying to get you to be more specific.
I take so long to write posts sometimes that I often need to sign in again, to my absolute horror and dismay, sometimes the post is forever gone. The best is to save the whole post right-clicking on the mouse and copying it and pasting it in a new window.
Please, what flaw?
I’m a cafeteria creationist, a neo-creationist or a new-fangled creationist if creationism must include belief in a 6-day creation… I believe in creation so obviously that makes me a creationist. What I meant by flaw is that I’m sure “creationism” means many different things to many people. Same with evolution. I’m pretty sure most people think evolution=atheism. A lot of people think evolution is the last nail in the coffin of religion. If people believe in the literal accounts of creation, that makes them literalists, fundamentalists, creationist should only qualify someone who believes God created the universe, period. Does “creationism” necessarily entail OT literalism or does it simply mean that God is behind it all?
 
If by select number you mean “not a lot” then you are wrong. There are tons and tons of fossils, plus genetic studies and other related fields have confirmed what the fossils show. Of course not every detail is known, nor are the details known set in stone (bc that’s the way science is).
humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species
Select refers to the research published in the top peer reviewed journals. And actually there have not been a lot of human origin studies until recently when the Human Genome Project was completed. One famous genetic study in 1995 has been used as the base for denying Adam and Eve and is still used even though some current studies in the same genetic area have come up with a better presentation. Even with a better presentation, the evidence does not warrant an universal exclusion of the possibility of Adam and Eve.

Remember that scientific research includes both probability and possibility.

When it is said that related fields have confirmed what the fossils show, then it is necessary to have accurate information as to what the fossils show.

Yes, there are tons and tons of fossils and the current research is based on organizing them into species which have already been determined. However, there are still fossil finds which don’t quite match other species; thus there are tons and tons of speculations and arguments going on between scientists. Tons and tons of speculations are an exaggeration; but the point is that new information about old fossils keeps popping up.

There is a lot to learn from fossils; but information about geographic location, diet, facial characteristics, disease, locomotion, brain size etc., do not necessarily include a conclusion regarding the possibility of two sole founders of the human species.

What do you think fossils show? And how can fossils exclude the possibility of two founders of the human species?

I took a brief look at your link and could relate to the illustration "The Human Family Tree. Recently, I had a chance to visit the human evolution display at the London Natural History Museum. A lot of it is being remolded, but what I saw demonstrated the relationships between members of those groups in The Human Family Tree and modern humans. For example, a recent Australopithecus fossil may be moved closer to modern humans because its structure indicated that this particular fellow walked on two legs. In the language of evolution, any being which walks on two legs may be considered as human.

What has happened is that the evolution model does not distinguish between human and human-like so just about everything that looks human-like is called human depending on the homology shared with modern humans. What was fascinating at the Natural History Museum were the charts and diagrams of shared characteristics, i.e, a homology which may be attributed to a common origin. The emphasis is on the relationship between fossil/species and other fossil/species. By plotting out the relationships, a reasonable common ancestor can be determined.

My point is that while there are lots of fascinating research papers on the information in the link to The Human Family Tree, this information does not necessarily and particularly exclude two founders of the real human species.

Somewhere along the line, someone will point to the population studies and say humans evolved as a variety of breeding populations and did not evolve from two individuals. At least fossils are concrete evidence; whereas there are no census records for these archaic populations. Now if a significant amount of fossils are found at an individual location, one could estimate the population size; but that does not mean that every individual in that population can be examined or if all the individuals are passionate breeders.

The point is that the simulated populations used for population studies can go only so far because they deal with millions of years going backwards. They can legitimately question the probability of Adam and Eve, but they cannot exclude the possibility of Adam and Eve.

The possibility of Adam and Eve is what is needed for the doctrine of monogenism to remain in place. Given the uniqueness of the human species, there is also the probability of two founders separate from other species.
Granny, I know humans are a special interest of yours. But when it comes to the physical, material aspect of the human species, we are no different than animals.
The better scientific explanation is that our anatomies are more similar to or more related to certain animals. We are vertebrates, but we are far removed from jawless fishes. Our anatomy is closely related to chimps and some scientists have included gorillas in the same level as chimps. But chimps are not equal with us.
Neither is the Australopithecus who walked on two legs equal to us.

From a Catholic position, the scientific aspects of our “animal type” anatomy should be explored as far as natural science can go. But when it comes to understanding our fully-complete human nature, we have to factor in our spiritual soul.

Our human nature is so unique, that I believe that non-theists could come to the same conclusion that we are peerless. Because of who we are, we would have had to descend from a single or pure ancestral human couple. By pure, I mean that that we did not descend from a variety of random mating ancestors which once served as our common ancestor for non-human primates.
 
I take so long to write posts sometimes that I often need to sign in again, to my absolute horror and dismay, sometimes the post is forever gone. The best is to save the whole post right-clicking on the mouse and copying it and pasting it in a new window.

I’m a cafeteria creationist, a neo-creationist or a new-fangled creationist if creationism must include belief in a 6-day creation… I believe in creation so obviously that makes me a creationist. What I meant by flaw is that I’m sure “creationism” means many different things to many people. Same with evolution. I’m pretty sure most people think evolution=atheism. A lot of people think evolution is the last nail in the coffin of religion. If people believe in the literal accounts of creation, that makes them literalists, fundamentalists, creationist should only qualify someone who believes God created the universe, period. Does “creationism” necessarily entail OT literalism or does it simply mean that God is behind it all?
Quick comment since my head is about to use my keyboard for a pillow.

I usually copy and paste as I write because I do not know how to use spell-check on CAF. This time, I was so intent on what I was doing, I delayed copying. :eek:

As far as I can tell “creationism” does not necessarily entail OT literalism simply because the OT has a lot of separate subjects. However, there are some verses that do describe features of our universe often in poetic terms.

For me, I stick to the creation issue of Adam and Eve found in the first three chapters of Genesis. I do not do Noah simply because he is not on the same level as the individual who committed original sin.

Also – I do not accept the concept that evolution = atheism.
Evolution is an explanation of God’s marvelous world. The trouble is that people use this explanation to exclude God. Maybe the evolution theory is correct and maybe it isn’t; but we should leave it be in the material/physical domain.

The trouble is that the evolution theory intersects with some of the basic Catholic doctrines. This is where science can only go so far. At the point of intersection, Divine Revelation takes over.

:yawn::sleep:
 
I snipped bits and pieces, hope you don’t mind.
What do you think fossils show? And how can fossils exclude the possibility of two founders of the human species?
The fossils show that modern humans were preceded by archaic humans and advanced primates before them etc.
My understanding how life works is that sexually reproducing organisms were themselves the offspring of 2 organisms who sexually reproduced. The parents are the same species as the offspring. This rules out the possibility of there being two first humans because in my view, the first humans had parents.
**What has happened is that the evolution model does not distinguish between human and human-like so just about everything that looks human-like is called human depending on the homology shared with modern humans. **What was fascinating at the Natural History Museum were the charts and diagrams of shared characteristics, i.e, a homology which may be attributed to a common origin. The emphasis is on the relationship between fossil/species and other fossil/species. By plotting out the relationships, a reasonable common ancestor can be determined.
That’s a very good point you raise, worth exploring further.
The point is that the simulated populations used for population studies can go only so far because they deal with millions of years going backwards. They can legitimately question the probability of Adam and Eve, but they cannot exclude the possibility of Adam and Eve.
The idea that two humans existed and their parents were not humans and no one around them was human flies in the face of the evidence and reason. By reason I mean how like with animals we can see that brand new species do not just pop into existence. This observation can and should be applied to humans as well.
The possibility of Adam and Eve is what is needed for the doctrine of monogenism to remain in place. Given the uniqueness of the human species, there is also the probability of two founders separate from other species.
From a Catholic position, the scientific aspects of our “animal type” anatomy should be explored as far as natural science can go. But when it comes to understanding our fully-complete human nature, we have to factor in our spiritual soul.
That’s fine but then the Catholic position steps into the scientific, physical realm.
Our human nature is so unique, that I believe that non-theists could come to the same conclusion that we are peerless. Because of who we are, we would have had to descend from a single or pure ancestral human couple. By pure, I mean that that we did not descend from a variety of random mating ancestors which once served as our common ancestor for non-human primates.
I can agree that we are peerless. I strongly disagree that that means we “had” to descend from a single couple. Our intelligence is the root that allowed us to surpass other creatures and sustains our supremacy over other creatures. An increase in intelligence of a population over time can be and is explained by evolution. ( the more intelligent individuals of a group being naturally selected ). If God chose to put souls into 2 of these individuals, that’s cool. But these 2 had physically similar (if not spiritually) peers in their group.
 
I snipped bits and pieces, hope you don’t mind.
You snip well. 😃

It looks like a number of us, including yourself, are approaching the 46% Gallup Poll with the idea that the Creationist view as presented in the poll is rather limited in different ways.

This is good from my point of view because people need to question what is being presented. I agree that Darwin did contribute to society’s knowledge through his questioning of life processes. I depart from Darwin because natural history can only answer part of the questions of human life. Part will never satisfy my curiosity.

With the opening of the first universities, traditionally the Catholic Church has pursued knowledge of the material/physical world we live in. This is why the evolution model has not been dismissed out of hand.

Nonetheless, when a particular evolution theory intersects with a Catholic doctrine, then the Catholic Church is obligated to step into the scientific, physical realm. The obligation is serious because ultimately the Catholic Church is dealing with the eternal future of human beings. Yes, I realize that a concept of eternal life is connected to the reality of personal God as the overall Creator. Regardless of other popular worldviews, the Catholic Church does not lose sight of either the spiritual world or the material world.
The fossils show that modern humans were preceded by archaic humans and advanced primates before them etc.
In my opinion, that is the general basic presupposition driving present day anthropology.

Currently, the difference between modern humans and advanced primates is dated to the homo/pan (man/chimp) split which was not an instant split but more a divergence (living organisms drawing apart from each other) taking place over time. This is why interpreters of evolution theory no longer consider that humans descended from apes.

In the current scientific view, apes and humans descended from some kind of common group or population with its own characteristics which changed here and there so that eventually parts of that group or population started its own line of individualized species. These lines developing from the general homo/pan divergence continued to split into additional species or subspecies. My personal observation is that the missing link–Piltdown Man has been replaced by relationships between species. My apologies to scientists for bringing up the Piltdown Man (google this one) but this “discovery” resulted in advances in natural science and a better picture of living animals and archaic human-like beings. So far so good?

I appreciated your link humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species
because of its graphics. Here is an interesting page. humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-family-tree

The question that the website asks is “What does it mean to be human?”

For Creationism and Catholicism it is not enough to diagram the material/physical anatomies which have appeared from pre-history times to the present. Creationists, Catholics, and non-theists want to know the origin of “human”? Curiosity is an universal driving force in science.

I robustly agree that the point from post 849 which you put in bold is worth exploring further. That point is** “What has happened is that the evolution model does not distinguish between human and human-like so just about everything that looks human-like is called human depending on the homology shared with modern humans**.”

Perhaps we should look at that point before going on to Catholic doctrines?
 
I can agree that we are peerless. I strongly disagree that that means we “had” to descend from a single couple.** Our intelligence is the root that allowed us to surpass other creatures and sustains our supremacy over other creatures.** An increase in intelligence of a population over time can be and is explained by evolution. ( the more intelligent individuals of a group being naturally selected ). If God chose to put souls into 2 of these individuals, that’s cool. But these 2 had physically similar (if not spiritually) peers in their group.
As this thread discusses human and human-like in the evolution theory in relationship to the strict creationist view that, at times, dismisses evolution as a whole ------
hang on to that thought --** “**Our intelligence is the root that allowed us to surpass other creatures and sustains our supremacy over other creatures.”
 
The fossils show that modern humans were preceded by archaic humans and advanced primates before them etc.
My understanding is that they have not pulled DNA from these fossils.
Can they really prove a relationship without genetics?

Similarity does not always indicate a relative.
 
My understanding is that they have not pulled DNA from these fossils.
Recently, DNA has been extracted from some Neandertal fossils and is currently being studied. There may also be DNA from older fosils. Technology is great!
Can they really prove a relationship without genetics?

Similarity does not always indicate a relative.
It is not so much proving a relationship as it is demonstrating a relationship due to amount and kind of physical similarities in pre-history.

When it comes to living species, then genetic information usually is the definitive way of establishing relatives. The glitch is found in the actual research since one scientist may use one assumption and another may choose an equally reasonable assumption which in the long run will yield different results. Are the different results significant enough so that previous research is no longer accurate? Some will say yes, others will say no. And so research continues as it should.

Research into pre-history has to rely on some assumptions. Assumptions can be valid or not valid or mostly valid. In the research sections, materials and methods, a scientist may indicate the assumptions and/or presuppositions being used. Some of the mathematical assumptions have become standard formulas so they are not usually cited.

In terms of pre-history natural science, normally research conclusions are in keeping with the evidence even when there are some presuppositions and assumptions assuming that these are reasonable. Some presuppositions may have been adequately demonstrated in other research. Thus, research papers will often footnote certain presuppositions as the results of previous research papers. I respect the honesty of scientists.

In my humble opinion, the glitch in pre-history natural science is the tendency of interpreters to extrapolate a particular conclusion based on the presented evidence to an universal conclusion which cannot be affirmed by the presented evidence. This is especially visible when interpreters want to exclude the possibility of two sole founders of humankind. Interpretation of research does not end with a probable conclusion. It also recognizes the possibility of a different conclusion.

Even when the different conclusion (reality of human origin) does not fit the interpreter’s worldview, the possibility still exists.
 
The Pontifical Commissions answer to this inquiry -
  • Genesis does not contain purified myths. (Pontifical Biblical Commission 1909[1])
You’re user nbane describes your spiritual condition. You are indeed lost. You can’t put limitations on God. God has no limitations and he can do anything he wants and in any time. God’s book is not like man’s book in that it has no errors. Ask the Holy Spirit to be your mentor.
 
snip snip
I appreciated your link humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species
because of its graphics. Here is an interesting page. humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-family-tree

The question that the website asks is “What does it mean to be human?”

I robustly agree that the point from post 849 which you put in bold is worth exploring further. That point is** “What has happened is that the evolution model does not distinguish between human and human-like so just about everything that looks human-like is called human depending on the homology shared with modern humans**.”

Perhaps we should look at that point before going on to Catholic doctrines?
So here we are. What does it mean to be human? For the sake of discussion, I will grant that God exists and souls exist and that God created humans’ souls immediately (souls did not evolve.) I am not granting that 2 individuls founded the human species but I am just putting that aside for now.

Well I say I am granting that souls exist but that is only partly true. What is a soul? Is it the ability to recognize that something beyond the natural world exists?(such as gods as in theism or spirits as in animism.) I have not, in my entire life, even when I was a child, recognized anything beyond the natural world. Maybe I would fit right in with the pre-humans! 😃

If (since) fossils can’t tell us when our ancestors got souls, how can we determine when pre-humans became human? Is brain size, as an indicator of intelligence, a good way to distinguish a human from a pre-human?
 
Hi, Samiam,

Let me try to respond to the first question you have presented.

There are many ways that we can distinguish ourselves as humans when we contrast ourselves with non-humans life forms. And, while we can climb quickly from the single-cell organism upward - but, when we start to examine the primate, we start slowing down as we find more and more common aspects. ucmp.berkeley.edu/mammal/eutheria/primates.html

When I was much younger, the distinction seemed to hinge on man’s ability to make tools - contrasted with any other primate. And, for a time this made some sense - no monkey ever built a bulldozer! or fought for a flat head screwdriver when a Phillips was needed 😃 But, we see monkeys lower a stick into an ant mound and pull our ants and then eat them off of the stick - and then repeat the process and demonstrate this to other moneys. There are other examples - but, as long as we loosely define a tool as some non-body part we abstract and use to get a job done, we find some animals can really surprise us.

Then it was a sense of humor that distinguished us from other primates - but… with research by people like Jane Goodall (achievement.org/autodoc/page/goo1int-1 ) that did not seem to hold all the water I thought it would. And, then I began to think about such things as writing and recording things for future readers - that seemed solid… but, in reality it fell short - because I was (and am) convinced that there is so much more that really drives our interest, our imagingation, our love - and then I remembered St. Augustine’s quote: “You have made us for yourself, Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you,” and that brought it home for me. Only man seeks to know and love God. Here is a link: midwestaugustinians.org/saints/s_augustine.html

Here is a link that will do a much better job then I did: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a3.htm

I hope this helps you on the journey to answering that question.

God bless
So here we are. What does it mean to be human? For the sake of discussion, I will grant that God exists and souls exist and that God created humans’ souls immediately (souls did not evolve.) I am not granting that 2 individuls founded the human species but I am just putting that aside for now.
 
If the God who supposedly inspired the author of the Book of Genesis to write that Adam lived 930 years , that it took 6 days for God to create the universe, that all of the animals contained on this Earth which can’t swim had to be in pairs on a ship built in a desert, that Adam was made from earth and one of his ribs was used to make Eve (if we found human fossils that were determined to have been those of Adam, would we find him missing a rib?) is the same God who inspired whichever council to proclaim as sure doctrine (that Catholics are mandated to believe) the real existence of Adam* and Eve*, am I justified in not being convinced? I’m sure nobody had a problem interpreting the Old Testament as a reliable history book up until science made it impossible. Science told the Catholic Church that the Book of Genesis especially could not be read as a believable account of how things unfolded. Now it’s allegorical, poetic, lyric, figurative, topical time because that’s the position science forced the Catholic Church to adopt. Science talks and the Church nods yes.

For those who don’t think God could create the world in 6 days and rest on the 7th day. Could you please list all the other things where the bible is erroneous? Sounds good! Ivf you don’t like something in the bible you can just disagree. Of courtse if you like it you will agree.

*The names may have been changed.
 
Well I say I am granting that souls exist but that is only partly true. What is a soul? Is it the ability to recognize that something beyond the natural world exists?(such as gods as in theism or spirits as in animism.) I have not, in my entire life, even when I was a child, recognized anything beyond the natural world. Maybe I would fit right in with the pre-humans! 😃
I haven’t either, at least not by direct experience. By my rational capabilities, yes.

The soul is the seat of the rational, conceptual intellect (which works in conjunction with the brain), and of the moral free will.

Forv the rational intellect, see also my article,

home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/naturalism_is_true.htm

and all the web references at the very end of it, starting with the C.S. Lewis article, and going on to the Feser essays.
 
I haven’t either, at least not by direct experience. By my rational capabilities, yes.

The soul is the seat of the rational, conceptual intellect (which works in conjunction with the brain), and of the moral free will.

See also my article,

home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/naturalism_is_true.htm

and all the web references at the very end of it, starting with the C.S. Lewis article, and going on to the Feser essays.
I need to get back to samiam1611 about some rather interesting comments.
Both of you are too brilliant to realize that basic supernatural is simply anything that is beyond the natural or appears to be beyond the natural. You don’t have to be a part of a ritual rain dance to recognize the spiritual aspects.
 
snip snip

So here we are. What does it mean to be human? For the sake of discussion, I will grant that God exists and souls exist and that God created humans’ souls immediately (souls did not evolve.) I am not granting that 2 individuls founded the human species but I am just putting that aside for now.

Well I say I am granting that souls exist but that is only partly true. What is a soul? Is it the ability to recognize that something beyond the natural world exists?(such as gods as in theism or spirits as in animism.)
Yes, That is it.
I have not, in my entire life, even when I was a child, recognized anything beyond the natural world.
What about the first time you listened to school mates talk about Santa’s gifts under the Christmas tree? What about Sponge Bob Square Pants? Think about rituals of Indian tribes-- If you saw a news clip about a rain dance, wouldn’t you recognize the spiritual or supernatural implications?

Al Moritz, post 859, has the proper definition of the soul. However, if we are going to walk in the domain of science, we need to start at the very basic concept of human nature which is that humans have the capability to recognize the supernatural in a huge variety of contexts.
Maybe I would fit right in with the pre-humans! 😃
You are too cute to be a pre-human. :cool:
If (since) fossils can’t tell us when our ancestors got souls, how can we determine when pre-humans became human?
We can use some of the comparisons of Tqualey in post 857
Is brain size, as an indicator of intelligence, a good way to distinguish a human from a pre-human?
I think that is a valid way. Still, I would add that how the intelligence is used is the deal maker.

Going back to the difference between a pre-human and a human.

As we walk in the science domain, there is evidence that archaic beings buried their dead. The supposition is that they believed in an afterlife. This is based on the fact that real humans bury their dead. Therefore those archaic beings can be called human. But are they?

This is my personal reasoning.
Starting with the ability to recognize that something beyond the natural world exists and which resides in the spiritual soul. Is that new twist o.k. with you?

Obviously an afterlife is supernatural since it exists beyond the natural life of living beings. We cannot create an afterlife so we grant the existence of a supernatural being Who is God Who, as the Creator, can call human beings to share in His Divine life after death of the mortal body.

Going back to the pre-humans who buried their dead, there is no real hard evidence that they actually believed in a God Who could provide an afterlife. Even the items often buried with these beings cannot prove that an afterlife was being considered. One could say the same thing about human burial except there is at least one written record (hard evidence) that the first human believed in God and in some kind of blessed life of happiness after death.

Taking the first three chapters of Genesis at face value, there is the written record that the first human had the capability to recognize the supernatural. Not only that, Adam could communicate with the supernatural being Who is named God.

If we lay Adam at the side of the pre-human, we see that Adam is the real human and the pre-human is pre-human.

Am I even close to being right?
 
I haven’t either, at least not by direct experience. By my rational capabilities, yes.

The soul is the seat of the rational, conceptual intellect (which works in conjunction with the brain), and of the moral free will.

Forv the rational intellect, see also my article,
home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/naturalism_is_true.htm
and all the web references at the very end of it, starting with the C.S. Lewis article, and going on to the Feser essays.
Your article seems to be addressing materialism more than naturalism.

When granny talks about how humans are both material and spiritual or

when JPII says:
Originally posted by JPII
… life given to man in the act of creation transcends the mere corporeal dimension (that which is proper to animals). Beyond the material, it reaches the dimension of the spirit, which contains the essential foundation of that “image of God”
or the Catechism says stuff like:
Originally posted by CCC
“Spirit” signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God
I am hearing more than “The human mind must have a component that is not subject to physical determinism, i.e. it must have an immaterial component.”

You are describing immaterialism, not supernaturalism. I think. (Am I using those terms right?)

Plus, I am thinking our ancestors had that too (that=rationality, intellect, free will) just to a lesser degree. In other words…these features gradually developed/increased and were not like, infused into bodies that looked human or pre-human. The things you describe may be immaterial but they are not supernatural.

Tom (tqualey) provided me with a link to a very relevent part of the catechism:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a3.htm
What jumped out at me is (snipped):

"1744 Freedom is the power to act or not to act, and so to perform deliberate acts of one’s own.
1745 Freedom characterizes properly human acts. It makes the human being responsible for acts of which he is the voluntary agent. "

So both you and him seem to think free will is essentially what makes us human so I would like to know if you think pre-humans or archaic homo sapiens did not have free will? Free will could only have come about with God instantly infusing free will (a soul) into bodies that look like humans but were not humans? Also do you disagree with the quotes above from the CCC and JPII?
Forgive my clumsy speech, I am trying not to put words in your mouth but trying to understand your beliefs.
 
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