Independent: Was Bush Right After All?

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Dear Issac Sheen,

I know that many people are killed in a war. This is the most unfortunate part of war. U.S. soldiers are brave, but that doesn’t mean that they believe in the cause. Where do you get that information? Also, I never called the U.S. soldiers “war criminals”- i was simply stating a fact- many innocent Iraqi civilians have been killed. And after all of this, I wonder: the case for war wasn’t solid at all. Bush might not have been “lying,” however, when it comes to getting involved in a war, make sure you’re right about the invasion before you invade.
 
Vegan,

I’m going to be honest, the reason I feel most troops support the war is based on the troops I’ve talked to. I know this isn’t some CNN poll or other news station’s opinion. Personally, I think ALL (including FoxNews) media outlets (radio, television, especially newspapers) lie through their teeth. And if they aren’t lying, they get things wrong. So I have to go by the experiences I have had. I realize this isn’t ideal.

Iraqi civilians have died. Mainly at the hands of Sadam and now, terrorists (sorry…insurgents). Do you feel Iraqi civilians are worse off then when Sadam was in power?

Regardless of Bush’s case for war, answer me this following question:
Knowing the fact that Sadam would butcher 1000’s of people on a whim. Knowing that his sons had rape and torture rooms. (A good example was when his one son put some guy into what would be like a giant blender.) Knowing the level of evil these people were doing, do you think we could justify our actions there?

Lastly, have you ever been wrong on something that was really important? Either through your own fault or someone else’s? And personally, I don’t feel time has shown whether Bush’s reasons for war were proven or not proven. There are still talks that Russia took weapons out (as well as others).

Thanks Vegan, you’re awesome buddy. (Good debate).🙂
 
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Matt25:
The robbery was a consequence of sin. The response to the robbery is therefore a consequence of sin.
Whose sin, yours, the policeman, the robber? Who of the three are sinning? All of you? Seems like a simple question. Perhaps not. Maybe you can try explaining it again in a different manner.
 
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Matt25:
The Encyclical ***PACEM IN TERRIS ***begins

Peace on Earth—which man throughout the ages has so longed for and sought after—can never be established, never guaranteed, except by the diligent observance of the divinely established order.
Do you think “peace” is going to happen via the last phrase before the return of Christ?
 
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Catholicvegan:
Dear Issac Sheen,

I know that many people are killed in a war. This is the most unfortunate part of war. U.S. soldiers are brave, but that doesn’t mean that they believe in the cause. Where do you get that information? Also, I never called the U.S. soldiers “war criminals”- i was simply stating a fact- many innocent Iraqi civilians have been killed. And after all of this, I wonder: the case for war wasn’t solid at all. Bush might not have been “lying,” however, when it comes to getting involved in a war, make sure you’re right about the invasion before you invade.
ALL the innocent Iraquies are dead SOLEY due to the sinful acitions of the insurgants.
The US does not choose to fight among women and children, but how do you get cowareds to fight out in the open, and not hide among innocents?..
All innocent life taken is indeed sad, but in no way the fault of the US.
 
jim orr:
Do you think “peace” is going to happen via the last phrase before the return of Christ?
There is a prayer, familiar to Catholics, which includes the words “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”. Catholics say that prayer with faith that it can happen, with hope that it will happen and with love desiring it to happen. Faith, hope and love are what we Catholics call the theological virtues and we are called to live lives based upon them.

Also in our faith we greatly respect the words of the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, and I draw you attention to his address on the World Day of Peace 1 January 2005
**DO NOT BE OVERCOME BY EVIL
BUT OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD
1. At the beginning of the New Year, I once again address the leaders of nations and all men and women of good will, who recognize the need to build peace in the world. For the theme of this 2005 World Day of Peace I have chosen Saint Paul’s words in the Letter to the Romans: “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good” (12:21). Evil is never defeated by evil; once that road is taken, rather than defeating evil, one will instead be defeated by evil.

The great Apostle brings out a fundamental truth: peace is the outcome of a long and demanding battle which is only won when evil is defeated by good. If we consider the tragic scenario of violent fratricidal conflicts in different parts of the world, and the untold sufferings and injustices to which they have given rise, the only truly constructive choice is, as Saint Paul proposes, to* flee what is evil and hold fast to what is good* (cf.* Rom* 12:9).

Peace is a good to be promoted with good: it is a good for individuals, for families, for nations and for all humanity; yet it is one which needs to be maintained and fostered by decisions and actions inspired by good. We can appreciate the profound truth of another saying of Saint Paul: *“Repay no one evil for evil” *(Rom 12:17). The one way out of the vicious circle of requiting evil for evil is to accept the Apostle’s words: “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good” (*Rom *12:21).

Evil, good and love
  1. From the beginning, humanity has known the tragedy of evil and has struggled to grasp its roots and to explain its causes. Evil is not some impersonal, deterministic force at work in the world. It is the result of human freedom. Freedom, which distinguishes human beings from every other creature on earth, is ever present at the heart of the drama of evil.* Evil always has a name and a face:* the name and face of those men and women who freely choose it. Sacred Scripture teaches that at the dawn of history Adam and Eve rebelled against God, and Abel was killed by Cain, his brother (cf.* Gen* 3-4). These were the first wrong choices, which were succeeded by countless others down the centuries. Each of these choices has an* intrinsic moral dimension*, involving specific individual responsibilities and the fundamental relationship of each person with God, with others and with all of creation.
At its deepest level, evil is a tragic rejection of the demands of love(1). Moral good, on the other hand, is born of love, shows itself as love and is directed towards love. All this is particularly evident to Christians, who know that their membership in the one mystical Body of Christ sets them in a particular relationship not only with the Lord but also with their brothers and sisters. The inner logic of Christian love, which in the Gospel is the living source of moral goodness, leads even to the love of one’s enemies:* “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink”* (Rom 12:20).
 
jim orr:
Whose sin, yours, the policeman, the robber? Who of the three are sinning? All of you? Seems like a simple question. Perhaps not. Maybe you can try explaining it again in a different manner.
“For the desire of money is the root of all evils” (1 Tim 6) It is sinful desire that leads to a criminal enterprise. If the desire was not there the crime would not be carried out. If the crime was not carried out there would be no need to respond. The response therefore is a consequence of the sinful desire.

Would the policeman be sinful in using violence. Well consider Jesus, whom we Catholics know is the Son of God, we was assaulted, at night, by a gang of armed thugs intent on his death. His companion Peter, the first Bishop of Rome, drew a sword and cut of the ear of one of the assailants, Malchus. Jesus rebuked Peter and healed the maimed ear of Malchus.

You are suggesting that we follow the example of Peter. I am suggesting we follow the example of his Royal Master.
 
Originally Posted by Matt25
That would be the same Pope John Paul II that opposed the invasion of Iraq would it?
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gilliam:
And Bosnia
Are you sure you don’t mean Kosovo?

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP950723.htm

ONLY ‘ASSISI SPIRIT’ CAN WIPE OUT SYMBOLIC STARTING POINT OF THIS CENTURY’S TRAGEDIES Pope John Paul II Angelus, July 23, 1995And now, how can we fail to turn our attention once again to the tormented peoples in Bosnia? How can we not listen to their agonizing cry for help? May each make his own contribution to re-establishing in the Balkans the minimum conditions for peaceful coexistence.

I repeat to those who are directly affected by this dreadful tragedy: do not lose hope! We are close to you with our solidarity and above all with our prayer, which is the great means we have available for obtaining all that seems humanly difficult to bring about.
Code:
 Above all, I ask those of you who are present here to pray.

      (Editor of *L’Osservatore Romano*)

 All who turn to the Lord of peace know that it is established in hearts rather than in     the halls of diplomacy.
They know that prayer is a powerful weapon, while not ignoring the fact that Bosnia-Hercegovina has a “right to self-defense”, as the Pope recalled on Saturday, in an interview with journalists in the Val d’Aosta. Military intervention must “always be the last resort”. And even in this case, the Pope stressed, “defensive warfare is terrible”. What a weight this adjective has!

“Defensive warfare is terrible, but if someone attacks or tramples upon the right to life, the right to existence, there is the right to self-defense” the Pope said. “We feel particularly close”, he continued, “to all those who are suffering, on whatever side they are”.

When the “right to defense” cannot be exercised by the peoples concerned, the international community has a definite obligation—here we can speak of “humanitarian intervention”—to seek to restore these peoples’ hope of life. Such an intervention, as the Holy Father’s numerous appeals demonstrate, does not mean immediate military action. War will never be a real solution to the problems of peoples! Negotiation is the most respectful way for man.

The concern of every upright conscience for the fate of the unfortunate Bosnian peoples is expressed, for the ecclesial community, in a keener awareness of the importance, in these tragic hours, of living, witnessing and asking the leaders of governments and international organizations for that “Assisi spirit” to which Pope John Paul II called Christians and the faithful of other religions on that “night of light”, 9 January 1993. This is certainly a demanding policy, but it is the only noble and truly victorious one, the one that sees all people of goodwill committed to prayer, repentance and sharing. The Holy Father recalled this yesterday at the Angelus, when he repeated to all those directly affected by the tragedy: "Do not lose hope!

We are close to you with our solidarity and above all with our prayer which is the great means we have available for obtaining all that seems humanly difficult to bring about" (L’Osservatore Romano, English edition, 26 July 1995, p. 1).

The ecclesial communities which, this summer, the fourth of the war for the sorely-tried Bosnian people, reject the lack of restraint that in opulent societies goes hand in hand with neglect of the suffering, know this. They are spending this holiday period meditating with deeper awareness and more actively mobilizing solidarity. The young Europeans who are preparing in this spirit for the meeting in Loreto next September know it.

We must look with this intimate certainly to Sarajevo. The “Assisi spirit” is the only one that can “wipe out the symbolic starting point of this century’s European tragedies”, as the Pope recalled once again on Saturday, appealing to Europe and to the world not to abandon this people.
 
Matt25, you’ve really got me thinking. Good stuff. I do wonder though, if my wife is about to be assaulted and I can stop it but I have to use some level of violence…do I try to negotiate with the person? What happens when he doesn’t listen to me?

What about if my children are in her place? Is this where just-war theory comes into play? Is just-war theory still taught by the Church? I have it in my Catechism but maybe it is out-dated? (These questions are serious and not sarcastic).
 
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Matt25:
The robbery was a consequence of sin. The response to the robbery is therefore a consequence of sin.

I am surprised that you have such contempt for the teachings of the Catholic Church. Perhaps this is the wrong forum for you.
Dear Matt25:

Christ’s incarnation, crucifixion, death, and resurrection was also a consequence of sin. Are you suggesting to all of us that Christ’s actions were sinful and therefore not justifiable?

Fiat
 
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Matt25:
There is a prayer, familiar to Catholics, which includes the words “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”. Catholics say that prayer with faith that it can happen, with hope that it will happen and with love desiring it to happen. Faith, hope and love are what we Catholics call the theological virtues and we are called to live lives based upon them.
So, your wife is about to be raped…what are you going to do in that situation based on what you said above? Is it God’s will she is raped? Is it God’s will that you prevent it in any way you can? What is the “good” in this situation. What is the evil?
 
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Matt25:
You are suggesting that we follow the example of Peter. I am suggesting we follow the example of his Royal Master.
Why did Jesus tell Peter to put away his sword?

He told him to put away his sword because the purpose for which Our Lord came was about to be played out. Peter was interfering with God’s plan for the salvation of man. John 18: 11"Jesus said to Peter, ‘Put your sword into its scabbard. Shall I not drink the cup that the Father gave me?’"

Peter’s “good intentions” revealed he did not understand what God had told his chosen people, or what Our Lord had been saying to him directly. I think there is a lesson in there that you might think about.
 
Catholics must realize they have a reponsibility to protect the innocent if you are put in a position of reponsibility over that person. (e.g. a parent, or a civil servant).

2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.
(Catholic Catechism)
 
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Matt25:
There is no such a thing as good violence. All violence, even “Just War” is the fruit of human sin. If humans did not sin there would be no violence…
But then you quote the Pope saying that defense is OK.
The Pope also said it was OK for the international community to lend a hand if those trying to defend were too weak, if I understand the Bosnia quote correctly.

So, in your mind, Matt, it is OK to raise your hand in defense, right?

Like the Lebonese, with help from France and the US, kicking Syria out of Lebanon? Right?
 
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gilliam:
Me! Me! Me! Can I answer? Pleeeeese?

Stalin set out to defend the USSR and defeate Hitler using whatever worked. He actually positioned armor divisions behind the lines to shoot any soldiers or civilians who retreated to force them to fight. Once in Germany they plundered and raped.
…and returning Russian soldiers who were POWs in Germany were sent to GULAG because they had seen too much of the West, which even in prison camp was better than the USSR. This is exactly how Solzhenitzyn ended up there.
 
monasticdialog.com/a.php?id=520
Excerpts from a Letter of Pope John Paul II to Cardinal Walter Kasper
On the Occasion of the Meeting “Peoples and Religions,” 3 September 2004
Peace is always possible! It is always necessary to cooperate in order to uproot from culture and life the seeds of resentment and misunderstanding, as well as the desire to dominate, the arrogance of one’s own interests and contempt for the identity of others. Indeed, such sentiments are the premise of a future of violence and war. Conflict is never inevitable!..
The world needs peace. Every day in the news there are reports of violence, terrorist attacks, military operations. Could it be that the world is giving up all hope of achieving peace? At times one gets the impression there is a gradual inurement to the use of violence and the spilling of innocent blood. Before these disturbing facts, I bend thoughtfully over the Scriptures; in them I find Jesus’ comforting words: “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid” (John 14:27). These words kindle hope in us Christians who believe in him, “for he is our peace” (Ephesians 2:14). I would like, however, to address everyone in order to ask you not to give in to the logic of violence, hatred and revenge, but rather to persevere in dialogue. We must break the deadly chain that holds captive too many parts of our planet, staining them with blood. . . .
The Milan Meeting shows the need to set out with determination on the true path of peace that never passes through violence and always through dialogue. Everyone knows, and particularly those who come from the countries that hostilities are bathing in blood, that violence always spawns violence. War throws open the doors to the abyss of evil. War even gives access to the most illogical possibilities. War, therefore, must always be considered a defeat: a defeat of reason and of humanity. Thus, may there soon be a spiritual and cultural impulse that will induce people to ban war. Yes, war never again! I was convinced of it in October 1986 at Assisi, when I asked the members of all the religions to join forces to pray to God for peace.** I am even more convinced of it today: whereas my physical strength is waning, I feel the power of prayer growing more and more vigorous. **
God bless Pope John Paul II, may our prayers blend with his and may Peace blossom forth now and forever
 
Matt25, that is all well and good but how do you expect nations to fulfill the will of God when individuals within nations won’t or can’t even do that?

I would argue that the “peace” you and Pope John Paul II refer to is not the “peace” God gives to the world through Jesus. The “peace” is not the “peace” the world gives, and that is what you and he think is capable of happening … "if only.” The problem is the “if only” has never happened and is never going to happen until Our Lord returns. Meanwhile, “good intentions” lead to evil deeds being done, wives being raped, people being mugged, robbed and murdered, and nuts crashing airplanes into high-rise buildings, while their buddies cut people’s heads off while praising, supposedly, according to the pope, the “same” God we do. \

Something isn’t making sense with your position. Maybe that is why you can’t or won’t answer a direct question in which you show us how “your peace” will work in those hypothetical, but REAL situations.
 
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