Indulgences 101 ... please explain/defend

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steve_b said:
For
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if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27* but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28* A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29* How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

Deliberately missing mass is already a serious sin

What does Paul mean …“there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” ?
Next he says "but a fearful PROSPECT of judgment ////// Prospect is not a certainty …

My point is that if we commit a Mortal sin … there IS a sacrifice available to us, A SACRAMENT, which we must avail ourselves of. How much time does God allow us to make restitution ? A single day … a week … or a full year [at our Annual Lenten Confession] ?

Why does Paul not mention our SACRAMENT OF RECONCILIATION ?
God has forgiven ALL OF US 7 X 70 sins … even AFTER our entry into the Church. Clearly Paul knows this.

Doesn’t all of scripture support that EVERY DAY we must be making our own PRIVATE Confession to God, via our HIGH PRIEST Jesus ? What Priest can be hearing our public confessions on daily basis ? It would take all of that priest’s time to be hearing the public confessions of all his flock. No priest has this much time … except for our INFINITE/OMNICIENT/OMNIPOTENT Lord. Was Paul making daily confessions to his superior Apostle, namely Peter ? I doubt it … and I don’t think you believe it either. But, I do believe Paul was daily confessing to Christ.

Your thoughts ?
 
brb3 said:
Now… how does this Ans. square with 1 John 1:9 ? “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just AND WILL FORGIVE US OUR SINS AND CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.”
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Yes, if we confess our sins. But confession requires contrition. For every degree of contrition that is lacking, some degree of sin stays.
Are Catholics really admitting that a Priest can’t absolve [cleanse] us of ALL aspects of confessed sins ?
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Only if you’re perfectly contrite.
Do we also believe that our Private Confessions are not Fully Efficacious in this regard ?
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Where would you get the idea that private confession (attempting to bypass the sacrament) is acceptable?
Don’t we believe we pay the temporal effects for our confessed sins in this world [as did King David] … and not the next ?
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We can, but this is by no means the road most taken.
Anyone believe David wasn’t fully purged of effects of his sins before his death ?
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I don’t.
Don’t we believe that those 7 daily sins of a Righteous man are Venial ones … which my priest tells me DON’T NEED TO BE CONFESSED TO HIM. He only wants my Mortals confessed. :confused:
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Since we’re talking about a righteous man, yes, they’re probably venial. Your priest is correct according to the canons; only mortal sins cut off our relationship with God; venial sins can be purged in purgatory. As for why your priest only wants you to confess your mortal sins, there are a couple possible reasons. Your parish might typically have a long lineup for confession; he might detect some scrupulosity in you; he might be giving a penance to cover your confessed sins and your venial sins; or he could be doing your penance for you.
 
brb3 said:
My point is that if we commit a Mortal sin … there IS a sacrifice available to us, A SACRAMENT, which we must avail ourselves of. How much time does God allow us to make restitution ? A single day … a week … or a full year [at our Annual Lenten Confession] ?
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Only the Father knows the day and the hour.
Was Paul making daily confessions to his superior Apostle, namely Peter ?
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There would be no need for Paul to confess to a superior apostle. Any presbyter can hear the confession of anyone.
 
I have REAL issues accepting indulgences. I’m hanging onto my Catholicism with dental floss. Endulgences are a big beef with me. I tend to agree with the Reformation on the whole topic…:o
 
Spirithound said:
Where would you get the idea that private confession (attempting to bypass the sacrament) is acceptable?

.
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From Christ. And, not to bypass the Sacrament … but, to receive necessary grace until a complete satisfaction can be accomplished with Priest, on Annual or Semiannual basis.

Afterall, we make plenty of public confessions weekly at Mass … asking Mary, all the Saints, and our Brothers/Sisters ---- to pray for us to the Lord.
 
Spirithound said:
Your priest might detect some scrupulosity in you; he might be giving a penance to cover your confessed sins and your venial sins; or he could be doing your penance for you.
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Scrupulosity in a former Protestant … :nope:

My Priest doing Penance for me ? … Is that allowed or advised ?
 
brb3 said:
What does Paul mean …“there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” ? Next he says "but a fearful PROSPECT of judgment //////
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“no sacrifice for sin” and “blood of the covenant” in Heb 10, are words used by Jesus instituting the Eucharist, Mt 26:28,] that was explained in detail, in [Jn 6:53… ]

As Heb 10: states, after receiving knowledge of the truth, if we deliberately sin in this fashion, i.e., we don’t take this teaching seriously, and blow off mass, there are dire consequences.

Again, we are stewards of our own souls. If we don’t protect our souls from harm, who will?
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brb:
My point is that if we commit a Mortal sin … there IS a sacrifice available to us, A SACRAMENT, which we must avail ourselves of. How much time does God allow us to make restitution ? A single day … a week … or a full year [at our Annual Lenten Confession] ?
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You get rid of mortal sin ASAP. Don’t put it off. No one knows the second they will die.
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brb:
Why does Paul not mention our SACRAMENT OF RECONCILIATION ?
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Jesus instituted the sacrament, and James also taught about it. [see below]
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brb:
God has forgiven ALL OF US 7 X 70 sins … even AFTER our entry into the Church.
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Jesus said to Peter, that was the number of times he is to forgive his brother. After that, Jesus gave the power to forgive and retain sins to His apostles [Jn 20:23], and to those the apostles ordained
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brb:
Clearly Paul knows this.

Doesn’t all of scripture support that EVERY DAY we must be making our own PRIVATE Confession to God, via our HIGH PRIEST Jesus ? What Priest can be hearing our public confessions on daily basis ? It would take all of that priest’s time to be hearing the public confessions of all his flock. No priest has this much time … except for our INFINITE/OMNICIENT/OMNIPOTENT Lord.
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Jesus our high priest, ordained his apostles to forgive sins… That requires one to make an oral confession. Afterall, they aren’t mind readers. So within the context of confession to a priest, James writes

Jas 5: (Douay translation)
[14]* Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. [16] Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.*

(footnotes)
[14]* “Let him bring in”… See here a plain warrant of scripture for the sacrament of extreme unction, that any controversy against its institution would be against the express words of the sacred text in the plainest terms. *

[16]* “Confess therefore your sins one to another”… That is, to the priests of the church, whom (ver. 14) he had ordered to be called for, and brought in to the sick; moreover, to confess to persons who had no power to forgive sins, would be useless. Hence the precept here means, that we must confess to men whom God hath appointed, and who, by their ordination and jurisdiction, have received the power of remitting sins in his name.*
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brb:
Was Paul making daily confessions to his superior Apostle, namely Peter ? I doubt it … and I don’t think you believe it either. But, I do believe Paul was daily confessing to Christ.

Your thoughts ?
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Wasn’t James an apostle? Do apostles teach others about sacraments, and avail themselves of the sacraments, that they don’t have to do themselves?
 
brb3 said:
From Christ. And, not to bypass the Sacrament … but, to receive necessary grace until a complete satisfaction can be accomplished with Priest, on Annual or Semiannual basis.
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Christ told his disciples to go out and forgive sins. He did not do it all personally-physically. He also gave the Keys of Heaven to Peter, and Peter’s successor says mortal sins must be confessed to a priest, and confessing directly to God does not constitute an effective absolution.
brb3 said:
Scrupulosity in a former Protestant … :nope:
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I don’t understand this syllogism.
My Priest doing Penance for me ? … Is that allowed or advised ?
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I have heard that some do. No different from a friend praying for you. Works out better for you than 10 years of hard penance.
brb3 said:
Thats a cop-out ! Non-responsive answer.
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brb3 said:
So, did Paul confess to Presbyters … cite chapter/verse.
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John 21:25. We don’t do Sola Scriptura in this Church.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I have REAL issues accepting indulgences. I’m hanging onto my Catholicism with dental floss. Endulgences are a big beef with me. I tend to agree with the Reformation on the whole topic…:o
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Originally Nailed to the Door by Martin Luther
*38. Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of divine remission.
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  1. For it is clear that for the remission of penalties and of reserved cases, the power of the pope is of itself sufficient.
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  1. He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!*
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This reformer?
 
brb3 said:
From www.mycatholicsource.com …

Ques. Why does one need indulgences ?
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This is coming from an admittedly non-Latin perspective, but as I understand it, indulgences are NOT necessary. IIRC, indulgences are at best regarded as SALUTARY.

As a non-Latin, I have been taught that indulgences are primarily a Latin teaching, which ANY Catholic (Western, Eastern or Oriental) can avail themselves of (and which, in fact, I sometimes do). But with regards to belief, the only thing non-Latins need to know is that it is an acceptable teaching and not to be condemned.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Before your check and mate, please give the source and year of this quotation. Early on Luther was still fine with several Catholic trappings. When Luther nailed the 95 theses to the Wittenberg cathedral, he was still a contented papist…source and date please 🙂
Spirithound said:
This reformer?
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Spirithound said:
Christ told his disciples to go out and forgive sins. He did not do it all personally-physically.

confessing directly to God does not constitute an effective absolution.
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Are you referring to:

Matt. 28:18-19 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been GIVEN TO ME. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, to the close of the age.”

Matt. 19:13-15 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples REBUKED THE PEOPLE; but Jesus said, “Let the children COME TO ME, AND DO NOT HINDER THEM; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” And he laid his hands on them and went away.

Matt. 6:6-15 "But when you pray, GO INTO YOUR ROOM AND SHUT THE DOOR AND PRAY TO YOUR FATHER WHO IS IN SECRET; AND YOUR FATHER WHO SEES IN SECRET WILL REWARD YOU. … pray then like this … “and Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors; …”

Matt. 7:11 “If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, HOW MUCH MORE WILL YOUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN GIVE GOOD THINGS TO THOSE WHO ASK HIM !”

Matt. 9:2-13 …and when Jesus saw their faith He said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN.” … “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I DESIRE MERCY, AND NOT SACRIFICE.’ FOR I CAME NOT TO CALL THE RIGHTEOUS, BUT SINNERS.”
I think Christ’s testimony disproves your assumptions that Christ is not personally/physically/and spiritually THE AUTHORITY we all must answer to for physical & spiritual healing. Confessing directly to God is absolutely to be encouraged … and the most effective means to absolution. Christ is our HIGH PRIEST … and always available to hear our Contrite private Confessions. This notion that we Only receive forgiveness of sins from a Catholic priest is w/o basis in scripture.
 
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