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dvdjs
Guest
This perspective completely mistakes the meaning of temporal punishments. Please check out the CCC.
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dvdjs
Guest
Why do you say that they are not of the tradition of the early church?
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Apollos
Guest
Indulgences are of scripture:
- “We being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another” (Romans 12:5); therefore even sinners in the Church can benefit from the good of the holy.
- “Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the Church” (Colossians 1:24); therefore satisfaction can be made for another person.
- “To whom you have pardoned anything, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned anything, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ” (2 Corinthians 2:10); therefore anyone with apostolic authority may dispense someone from penalties.
- As early as the late 100s and early 200s it was understood that Christians who had caved in during the persecutions can be dispensed from their penances in view of the merits of those who were actually martyred.
- By the 700s the Church was already substituting easier penances for hard ones.
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gurneyhalleck1
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It does not. And I’m well aware of what temporal punishments are. Thanks dvd.
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gurneyhalleck1
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If you contend that they are, you should show Jon a host of examples from the early church pointing to a use of indulgences.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Pius X described indulgences accurately as the means “by which he makes certain reparation to the justice of God for his sins”
If we really look at it, are Catholics really making reparation with indulgences? If I graffiti a man’s fence then go to confession. I’m given ten Hail Mary’s and I go do some indulgences. I pray for the Holy Father, pray a novena to a saint for so many days, make a pilgrimage to a holy place, go to Mass daily, confession, etc. That’s all nice but what would REAL reparation be? Go to the guy’s house and repair his fence that I tagged with graffiti and repaint the fence.
Or I steal something. Rather than all those indulgence prayers and hooplah, maybe I should give the item back as reparation with a heart-felt apology? Or I lie to someone? Go admit it to them and make amends. The shame in each case is a greater reparation than praying and doing rosaries or trips to holy shrines.
If I cheated on my wife, I should apologize to her face, then apologize to the women with whom I committed adultery, then apologize to the husband of the wife I scandalized. That is a lot harder and more of a reparation than to pray in the shadows or go to confession alone.
So are indulgences really reparation?
Why don’t indulgences ask us to
feed the hungry
work in homeless shelters
do a prison visit or ministry
help with fellowship or ministry in our parish
work with parish outreach
do volunteer time
donate $$$ to charity if possible,
etc. etc?
Why are they always, if they’re to be reparation, so easy, so private, so NOT involving the person or thing we’ve violated, and ritualistic? They just don’t smell of God, if I may be so bold…
Now I’ll duck for the RPG’s that will come in on me any second…
INCOMING!!
If we really look at it, are Catholics really making reparation with indulgences? If I graffiti a man’s fence then go to confession. I’m given ten Hail Mary’s and I go do some indulgences. I pray for the Holy Father, pray a novena to a saint for so many days, make a pilgrimage to a holy place, go to Mass daily, confession, etc. That’s all nice but what would REAL reparation be? Go to the guy’s house and repair his fence that I tagged with graffiti and repaint the fence.
Or I steal something. Rather than all those indulgence prayers and hooplah, maybe I should give the item back as reparation with a heart-felt apology? Or I lie to someone? Go admit it to them and make amends. The shame in each case is a greater reparation than praying and doing rosaries or trips to holy shrines.
If I cheated on my wife, I should apologize to her face, then apologize to the women with whom I committed adultery, then apologize to the husband of the wife I scandalized. That is a lot harder and more of a reparation than to pray in the shadows or go to confession alone.
So are indulgences really reparation?
Why don’t indulgences ask us to
feed the hungry
work in homeless shelters
do a prison visit or ministry
help with fellowship or ministry in our parish
work with parish outreach
do volunteer time
donate $$$ to charity if possible,
etc. etc?
Why are they always, if they’re to be reparation, so easy, so private, so NOT involving the person or thing we’ve violated, and ritualistic? They just don’t smell of God, if I may be so bold…
Now I’ll duck for the RPG’s that will come in on me any second…
INCOMING!!
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dvdjs
Guest
Sorry if I am mistaken, but how otherwise do you explain the non sequitur of contrasting temporal punishments and “COMPLETE forgiveness”?
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Roy5
Guest
A memory. As a child I recall a black-covered Latin missal, and after certain prayers it would say in parentheses 5 days indulgence or 7 days indulgence. Even then I was puzzled by that. It seemed to suggest that if we prayed that particular prayer one’s stay in purgatory would be shortened by that much. I wondered how the number of days had been arrived at, at who arrived at them, etc.???
Now, I'm still not clear? Does it mean that our stay in purgatory is reduced by that amount? If I had repeated fifty times, for example, a pray for five days of indulgence, would I have 250 days cut from my stay in prugatory? All a bit strange. It seemed then - and now - rather mechanical.The big assumption here being the penence.
It is more likely the priest would specify a real reperation.
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guanophore
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The vast majority of Catholics are equally poorly catechized, so yes, you are still Catholic. If you understood the Teachings, you would accept them.
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guanophore
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May I presume that this is your comment, and not part of the passage you were quoting? You did not explain what it is about the teaching that you don’t believe.
Do you believe there are temporal consequences for sins?
Do you think that people should bear the fruits that befit repentance?
Do you believe that we are all members of one Body, and that what each person does affects the others?
Do you believe that our acts of love can help other members of the Body?
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guanophore
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It came from the TEaching of the Apostles, just like all the rest of the doctrines of the catholic faith. I do disagree, it is reflected in Scripture.
This is what is known as an abuse. Indulgences cannot be sold, and it was right for them to be scandalzed by this behavior. One of the main precipitators of the Reformation, and subsequent fracturing of the Body, is the corruption of the clergy. These wolves among the sheep scattered the flock. God have mercy upon their souls for their greed.
This is not uncommon for people that don’t understand purgatory and indulgences. But these gifts are only available to the faithful because of Jesus full and final sacrifice of Himself on the cross. Only He could pay our eternal debt. What is left that we can take up our cross with are the temporal consequences of sin.
It appears you are on the right thread.
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guanophore
Guest
No, Jesus paid for the eternal debt of our sins, but He does not always set aside the temporal punishment. Sometimes we need these punishments to grow, and become purified, sometimes others need them so that we can restore relationships. We are talking about two different types of debt here, eternal, and temporal. Purgatory and indulgences only address the temporal consequences of sins, not the eternal.
A good example is the thief on the cross. Jesus forgave Him his sin, but he left Thim there to suffer the just punishment for it. He could have taken Him when He departed, but he allowed him to hang there all day, and get his legs broken.
We don’t carve up the once for all divine deposit of faith and try to create such artificial categories of “non-essential” and 'what must be beleived to be saved". The Gospel message is one whole seamless garment. Indulgences and purgatory are part of that deposit.
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UniversalistGuy
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I don’t see that it makes much impact does it? Indulgences aren’t compulsory are they? So if you believe in purgatory you would just live with the tension of having difficulties with indulgences and then when you die if purgatory is a real place you’ll do your full cleansing there but without any time off.
I guess you should ask your priest.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
In my life as a Catholic I’ve never heard a penance that fit the “crime.” It’s always a certain amount of Hail Mary’s or Our Fathers (which I’m more than happy to do as I adore those prayers) which have nothing to do with the nature of reparation for the sins I have committed. That’s all I’m saying.
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gurneyhalleck1
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Maybe I like non-sequiturs? LOL 
Actually my point is simple. I understand that there, according to Catholicism, eternal consequences and temporal consequences. When I say “complete forgiveness,” I am referring to both being taken care of in the act of reconciliation with Christ. I obviously know the difference, and though we don’t always agree, I would hope, dvd, that you would give me the respect (that I’d quickly give to you) intellectually and the benefit of the doubt with this. I’m simply saying that forgiveness, by Protestant beliefs, is completely taken care of by God. There is no set of temporal consequences to be “satisified” so the notion of purgatory or indulgences is moot. I don’t think that’s an entirely unreasonable or insane opinion. For Catholics the “forgiveness” part is the pronouncement of absolution by the priest, yet satisfaction for the sins remains to be paid. So forgiveness is done eternally but there’s still more. For “forgivenss” from a non-Catholic point of view it encompasses both.
Actually my point is simple. I understand that there, according to Catholicism, eternal consequences and temporal consequences. When I say “complete forgiveness,” I am referring to both being taken care of in the act of reconciliation with Christ. I obviously know the difference, and though we don’t always agree, I would hope, dvd, that you would give me the respect (that I’d quickly give to you) intellectually and the benefit of the doubt with this. I’m simply saying that forgiveness, by Protestant beliefs, is completely taken care of by God. There is no set of temporal consequences to be “satisified” so the notion of purgatory or indulgences is moot. I don’t think that’s an entirely unreasonable or insane opinion. For Catholics the “forgiveness” part is the pronouncement of absolution by the priest, yet satisfaction for the sins remains to be paid. So forgiveness is done eternally but there’s still more. For “forgivenss” from a non-Catholic point of view it encompasses both.
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guanophore
Guest
You are suffering from a deficient undertanding of the nature of Church. The buildings are called that because they are a meeting place, but the Church are the “called out ones”. Jesus founded His Church, and gave gifts to her, so that she could guide us to heaven. She is His Bride, His One Body, for which He sacrificed Himself.
The authority given to the Church by Christ is in the keys, and the power to bind and loose.
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UniversalistGuy
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Back in the day didn’t penitents have to walk from London to Canterbury in their bare feet and stuff?
I asked someone to show me where in the seven early ecumenical councils there is a reference to indulgences, and if there is, why the Orthodox do not practice them.
Jon
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gurneyhalleck1
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