Inequality 'key to poverty fight'

[FightingFat]

When rich country leaders talk of fighting poverty, the emphasis is often on improving economic growth in their poorer neighbours.

But according to a new report from the United Nations, that alone will fail to produce meaningful poverty reduction.

Instead, it says, countries need to focus on reducing inequality - between rich and poor, between men and women and between regions. Rich states also need to give more aid and improve its quality, the UN says.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4222162.stm

Do you agree?

 

[Matt25]

Yes. I have a feeling whichever Church it is that has a “preferential option for the poor” agree’s too. Now which Church would that be?

 

[shockerfan]

The problem in combating poverty is IMO due to mostly to oppressive governments that institutionalize inequality.

Many muslim countries treat women as second class citizens. Many African countries are run by despots, that treat the poor as second class citizens.
Giving these countries aid is a waste of money, because the money does not go to those that need it, it goes to those in power.

 

[Matt25]

shockerfan:

The problem in combating poverty is IMO due to mostly to oppressive governments that institutionalize inequality.

Many muslim countries treat women as second class citizens. Many African countries are run by despots, that treat the poor as second class citizens.
Giving these countries aid is a waste of money, because the money does not go to those that need it, it goes to those in power.

Are any of these despotic backward countries propped up by Western countries? Which 3 countries, for example receive the most aid from the US government?

 

[shockerfan]

Matt25:

Are any of these despotic backward countries propped up by Western countries? Which 3 countries, for example receive the most aid from the US government?

If you want to debate that…ok, but should go to a different thread. The question is about fighting poverty…the point I made on my previous post is valid.

 

[Matt25]

Well JPII addressed poverty in his World Day of Peace message for 2000 vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/peace/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_08121999_xxxiii-world-day-for-peace_en.html

The very fact that humanity, called to form a single family, is still tragically split in two by poverty - at the beginning of the twenty-first century, more than a billion four hundred million people are living in a situation of dire poverty - means that there is urgent need to reconsider the models which inspire development policies…

These processes call for rethinking international cooperation in terms of a new culture of solidarity. When seen as a sowing of peace, cooperation cannot be reduced to aid or assistance, especially if given with an eye to the benefits to be received in return for the resources made available. Rather, it must express a concrete and tangible commitment to solidarity which makes the poor the agents of their own development and enables the greatest number of people, in their specific economic and political circumstances, to exercise the creativity which is characteristic of the human person and on which the wealth of nations too is dependent.

In particular it is necessary to find definitive solutions to the long - standing problem of the international debt of poor countries, while at the same time making available the financial resources necessary for the fight against hunger, malnutrition, disease, illiteracy and the destruction of the environment…

Today more than in the past there is an urgent need to *foster a consciousness of universal moral values *in order to face the problems of the present, all of which are assuming an increasingly global dimension. **The promotion of peace and human rights, the settling of armed conflicts both within States and across borders, the protection of ethnic minorities and immigrants, the safeguarding of the environment, the battle against terrible diseases, the fight against drug and arms traffickers, and against political and economic corruption: these are issues which nowadays no nation is in a position to face alone. **They concern the entire human community, and thus they must be faced and resolved through common efforts.

A way must be found to discuss the problems posed by the future of humanity in a comprehensible and common language. The basis of such a dialogue is *the universal moral law *written upon the human heart. By following this “grammar” of the spirit, the human community can confront the problems of coexistence and move forward to the future with respect for God’s plan

 

[tcay584]

When rich country leaders talk of fighting poverty, the emphasis is often on improving economic growth in their poorer neighbours.

But according to a new report from the United Nations, that alone will fail to produce meaningful poverty reduction.

Instead, it says, countries need to focus on reducing inequality - between rich and poor, between men and women and between regions. Rich states also need to give more aid and improve its quality, the UN says.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4222162.stm

Do you agree?

Phooey. There will always be inequality and there will always be poverty. I don’t think rich states necessarily need to give more aid to poor ones. I think Atlas Shrugged is a great example of what can happen when people who have worked hard all their lives are forced to support those who won’t. I don’t want an equal society…I don’t want exactly what everyone else has…and I sure as heck don’t want a handout from anybody. The UN…yeah, let’s listen to those brilliant, uncorruptible, magnanimous folks. Phooey.

 

[Matt25]

tcay584:

Phooey. There will always be inequality and there will always be poverty. I don’t think rich states necessarily need to give more aid to poor ones. I think Atlas Shrugged is a great example of what can happen when people who have worked hard all their lives are forced to support those who won’t. I don’t want an equal society…I don’t want exactly what everyone else has…and I sure as heck don’t want a handout from anybody. The UN…yeah, let’s listen to those brilliant, uncorruptible, magnanimous folks. Phooey.

How do you feel about the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

Rich nations have a grave moral responsibility toward those which are unable to ensure the means of their development by themselves or have been prevented from doing so by tragic historical events.
(#)2439

It is also necessary to reform international economic and financial institutions so that they will better promote equitable relationships with less advanced countries.
(#)2440

The goods of creation are destined for the entire human race. The right to private property does not abolish the universal destination of goods.
(#)2452

The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.
(#)2424

The development of economic activity and growth in production are meant to provide for the needs of human beings. Economic life is not meant solely to multiply goods produced and increase profit or power; it is ordered first of all to the service of persons, of the whole person, and of the entire human community.
(#)2426
[osjspm.org/cst/q_catechism.htm](http://www.osjspm.org/cst/q_catechism.htm)

 

[tcay584]

Matt25:

How do you feel about the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

Rich nations have a grave moral responsibility toward those which are unable to ensure the means of their development by themselves or have been prevented from doing so by tragic historical events. (#)2439

It is also necessary to reform international economic and financial institutions so that they will better promote equitable relationships with less advanced countries. (#)2440

The goods of creation are destined for the entire human race. The right to private property does not abolish the universal destination of goods.(#)2452

The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order. (#)2424

The development of economic activity and growth in production are meant to provide for the needs of human beings. Economic life is not meant solely to multiply goods produced and increase profit or power; it is ordered first of all to the service of persons, of the whole person, and of the entire human community. (#)2426

osjspm.org/cst/q_catechism.htm

Ok, that’s nice. All that shows is that you can go to a website and cut-n-paste the catechism from a group of selected quotes. What I’m asking is if you believe that the world would be a better place if money is simply doled out whimsically to dictatorial, but poor, nations. How about convincing a company from a rich nation to invest in one of those hypothetical dictatorial, corrupt nations? Is it a good thing to force someone to throw their money away on an investment sure to go bad…all in the same of promoting their economic development (which will never happen because of the government corruption)? Also, answer the UN point as well. How can I seriously take their advice when I see Oil-for-Food flashing in my head? It’s a great idea, but I think this report overlooks the reality as to why many of these poor countries are in their situation to begin with.

 

[Della]

Matt25:

How do you feel about the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

Rich nations have a grave moral responsibility toward those which are unable to ensure the means of their development by themselves or have been prevented from doing so by tragic historical events.
(#)2439

It is also necessary to reform international economic and financial institutions so that they will better promote equitable relationships with less advanced countries.
(#)2440

The goods of creation are destined for the entire human race. The right to private property does not abolish the universal destination of goods.
(#)2452

The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.
(#)2424

The development of economic activity and growth in production are meant to provide for the needs of human beings. Economic life is not meant solely to multiply goods produced and increase profit or power; it is ordered first of all to the service of persons, of the whole person, and of the entire human community.
(#)2426

 [osjspm.org/cst/q_catechism.htm](http://www.osjspm.org/cst/q_catechism.htm)

All this assumes that rich nations can do any of these things. Often they can’t due to those in power in poor countries not giving a flying be-boop about the poor. Many a tyrant sees keeping a segment of their population in grinding poverty as a way of keeping those people powerless, so they can go on robbing their country blind with their thugs to support them. We live in the real world, ya know. Throwing money around isn’t going to solve the problems of personal greed of those who are supposed to be the servants of their people but are their rapists, instead.

 

[Matt25]

Della:

All this assumes that rich nations can do any of these things…

By “all this” do you mean the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

 

[rlg94086]

This is more of the same argument: Do we give them fish or teach them to fish? I believe we need to do a little of both. Just giving money to people because they are poor is counterproductive. It leads to laziness and reliance. We need to encourage productivity and growth. That’s the way out of poverty.

We need a good international body, which represents democratic countries with decent human rights (btw…that’s not the UN in it’s current state). That body should help ensure fair international trade.

Our aid does need to be smarter, so that money doesn’t just flow to dictators, but actually helps the countries to improve themselves.

 

[Matt25]

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm

**VI. LOVE FOR THE POOR ** **
2443 **God blesses those who come to the aid of the poor and rebukes those who turn away from them: “Give to him who begs from you, do not refuse him who would borrow from you”; “you received without pay, give without pay.” It is by what they have done for the poor that Jesus Christ will recognize his chosen ones. When “the poor have the good news preached to them,” it is the sign of Christ’s presence.

**2444 **“The Church’s love for the poor . . . is a part of her constant tradition.” This love is inspired by the Gospel of the Beatitudes, of the poverty of Jesus, and of his concern for the poor. Love for the poor is even one of the motives for the duty of working so as to “be able to give to those in need.” It extends not only to material poverty but also to the many forms of cultural and religious poverty.

**2445 **Love for the poor is incompatible with immoderate love of riches or their selfish use:
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned, you have killed the righteous man; he does not resist you. **

2446 **St. John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: “Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours, but theirs.” “The demands of justice must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity”:
When we attend to the needs of those in want, we give them what is theirs, not ours. More than performing works of mercy, we are paying a debt of justice…

**2448 **“In its various forms - material deprivation, unjust oppression, physical and psychological illness and death - human misery is the obvious sign of the inherited condition of frailty and need for salvation in which man finds himself as a consequence of original sin. This misery elicited the compassion of Christ the Savior, who willingly took it upon himself and identified himself with the least of his brethren. Hence, those who are oppressed by poverty are the object of a preferential love on the part of the Church which, since her origin and in spite of the failings of many of her members, has not ceased to work for their relief, defense, and liberation through numerous works of charity which remain indispensable always and everywhere.”

**2449 **Beginning with the Old Testament, all kinds of juridical measures (the jubilee year of forgiveness of debts, prohibition of loans at interest and the keeping of collateral, the obligation to tithe, the daily payment of the day-laborer, the right to glean vines and fields) answer the exhortation of Deuteronomy: “For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor in the land.’” Jesus makes these words his own: “The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.” In so doing he does not soften the vehemence of former oracles against “buying the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals . . .,” but invites us to recognize his own presence in the poor who are his brethren:

 

[rlg94086]

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm

**VI. LOVE FOR THE POOR **
**2443 **God blesses those who come to the aid of the poor and rebukes those who turn away from them: “Give to him who begs from you, do not refuse him who would borrow from you”; “you received without pay, give without pay.” It is by what they have done for the poor that Jesus Christ will recognize his chosen ones. When “the poor have the good news preached to them,” it is the sign of Christ’s presence.

**2444 **“The Church’s love for the poor . . . is a part of her constant tradition.” This love is inspired by the Gospel of the Beatitudes, of the poverty of Jesus, and of his concern for the poor. Love for the poor is even one of the motives for the duty of working so as to “be able to give to those in need.” It extends not only to material poverty but also to the many forms of cultural and religious poverty.

**2445 **Love for the poor is incompatible with immoderate love of riches or their selfish use:
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned, you have killed the righteous man; he does not resist you.

**2446 **St. John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: “Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours, but theirs.” “The demands of justice must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity”:
When we attend to the needs of those in want, we give them what is theirs, not ours. More than performing works of mercy, we are paying a debt of justice…

**2448 **“In its various forms - material deprivation, unjust oppression, physical and psychological illness and death - human misery is the obvious sign of the inherited condition of frailty and need for salvation in which man finds himself as a consequence of original sin. This misery elicited the compassion of Christ the Savior, who willingly took it upon himself and identified himself with the least of his brethren. Hence, those who are oppressed by poverty are the object of a preferential love on the part of the Church which, since her origin and in spite of the failings of many of her members, has not ceased to work for their relief, defense, and liberation through numerous works of charity which remain indispensable always and everywhere.”

**2449 **Beginning with the Old Testament, all kinds of juridical measures (the jubilee year of forgiveness of debts, prohibition of loans at interest and the keeping of collateral, the obligation to tithe, the daily payment of the day-laborer, the right to glean vines and fields) answer the exhortation of Deuteronomy: “For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor in the land.’” Jesus makes these words his own: “The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.” In so doing he does not soften the vehemence of former oracles against “buying the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals . . .,” but invites us to recognize his own presence in the poor who are his brethren:

Now, who can argue with that?! I agree 100%, but the application of those principles can vary. If you do nothing but give money, you aren’t really helping in the long run.

God Bless,

Robert

 

[tcay584]

Matt25:

By “all this” do you mean the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

I think she was saying that those things mentioned in the Catechism are not necessarily feasible for various reasons. She wasn’t criticising the catechism nor it’s social teachings.

 

[tcay584]

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm

**VI. LOVE FOR THE POOR **
**2443 **God blesses those who come to the aid of the poor and rebukes those who turn away from them: “Give to him who begs from you, do not refuse him who would borrow from you”; “you received without pay, give without pay.” It is by what they have done for the poor that Jesus Christ will recognize his chosen ones. When “the poor have the good news preached to them,” it is the sign of Christ’s presence.

**2444 **“The Church’s love for the poor . . . is a part of her constant tradition.” This love is inspired by the Gospel of the Beatitudes, of the poverty of Jesus, and of his concern for the poor. Love for the poor is even one of the motives for the duty of working so as to “be able to give to those in need.” It extends not only to material poverty but also to the many forms of cultural and religious poverty.

**2445 **Love for the poor is incompatible with immoderate love of riches or their selfish use:
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned, you have killed the righteous man; he does not resist you.

**2446 **St. John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: “Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours, but theirs.” “The demands of justice must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity”:
When we attend to the needs of those in want, we give them what is theirs, not ours. More than performing works of mercy, we are paying a debt of justice…

**2448 **“In its various forms - material deprivation, unjust oppression, physical and psychological illness and death - human misery is the obvious sign of the inherited condition of frailty and need for salvation in which man finds himself as a consequence of original sin. This misery elicited the compassion of Christ the Savior, who willingly took it upon himself and identified himself with the least of his brethren. Hence, those who are oppressed by poverty are the object of a preferential love on the part of the Church which, since her origin and in spite of the failings of many of her members, has not ceased to work for their relief, defense, and liberation through numerous works of charity which remain indispensable always and everywhere.”

**2449 **Beginning with the Old Testament, all kinds of juridical measures (the jubilee year of forgiveness of debts, prohibition of loans at interest and the keeping of collateral, the obligation to tithe, the daily payment of the day-laborer, the right to glean vines and fields) answer the exhortation of Deuteronomy: “For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor in the land.’” Jesus makes these words his own: “The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.” In so doing he does not soften the vehemence of former oracles against “buying the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals . . .,” but invites us to recognize his own presence in the poor who are his brethren:

There you go with the scissors and glue again. Do you have any ideas of your own (i.e. not directly attributable to anyone else) to supplement your argument?

 

[vern_humphrey]

rlg94086:

This is more of the same argument: Do we give them fish or teach them to fish? I believe we need to do a little of both.

But more of the second than of the first – the goal should be to make people self-supporting, not forever dependent on charity.

After all, those who are dependent on charity have by defintion not achieved equality with those who are self-supporting.

rlg94086:

Just giving money to people because they are poor is counterproductive. It leads to laziness and reliance. We need to encourage productivity and growth. That’s the way out of poverty.

And education. That’s the great need right here in the US – the poorest kids go to the worst schools.

rlg94086:

We need a good international body, which represents democratic countries with decent human rights (btw…that’s not the UN in it’s current state). That body should help ensure fair international trade.

I’m not sure how we could get such a body – it couldn’t be structured like the UN, where every nation – even those run by brutal dictators – gets one vote.

rlg94086:

Our aid does need to be smarter, so that money doesn’t just flow to dictators, but actually helps the countries to improve themselves.

I think we in the Church need to do much better. Let me give you an example – an analysis of a paragraph from “A Call to Faithful Citizenship.”

How will we address the tragic fact that more than 30,000 children die every day as a result of hunger, international debt, and lack of development around the world, as well as the fact that the younger you are, the more likely you are to be poor here in the richest nation on Earth?

Wait a minute here – I know children die from hunger, but how do they die of “international debt and lack of development?”

Almost everyone on these forums is in debt – home mortgages, car loans, credit card bills. How come debt doesn’t kill us?

The answer is simple, international debt and lack of development are not the killers here – they are the consequences of people living under brutal, corrupt dictators who steal the money advanced as loans (which should have been used for economic development). They use some of the money to rivet tighter the chains on their people.

And how is all that related to poverty in the United States?

Let’s re-write that paragraph

How will we address the tragic fact that more than 30,000 children die every day as a result of hunger, brought about by corrupt and brutal dictatorships around the world?

Now we have something to get our teeth into – the way to deal with the problem is to remove the corrupt dictators

Now let’s look at the other problem that was wrapped up in the same paragraph:

How will we address the fact that the younger you are, the more likely you are to be poor here in the richest nation on Earth?

We could start by recognizing that every child has a right to a first-class education. The vast disparity in quality between schools is the Civil Rights issue of the 21st Century.

As Catholics, we need to demand better (not necessarily more expensive) schools, better accountability – and we need to start expanding (not shrinking) Catholic schools as a viable alternative for parents who live in bad school districts.

In other words, we should get off our Catholic butts and get to work.

 

[Matt25]

tcay584:

There you go with the scissors and glue again. Do you have any ideas of your own (i.e. not directly attributable to anyone else) to supplement your argument?

You mean do I disagree with the teachings of the Catholic Church? No I do not.

 

[tcay584]

Matt25:

You mean do I disagree with the teachings of the Catholic Church? No I do not.

Ok Matt, you win. I give up. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

 

[Matt25]

vern humphrey:

Now we have something to get our teeth into – the way to deal with the problem is to remove the corrupt dictators

For every corruptee there is a corruptor. In many cases this would be Transnational corporations and/or Western Governments. If every Corporate CEO that OK’ed bribes went to prison that would have an (name removed by moderator)act.

It would reduce funding for the Republican/Democrat parties in a big way for a start.