Infallability

[Irish_Polock]

Once again Irish, my definition of SS is that all of the information we need for our salvation is contained within the pages of the bible. You apparently disagree with that idea. You say above “evidently some details of truth contained in orally inspired teachings Paul chose not to put in written revelation,” Now since you disagree with the idea of SS, that everthing that we need for salvation is not in the bible and when it says in 2Tim.3:15"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." that this salvation in Christ that we find out about in scripture is not really enough or sufficient and that these “details of truth” that you talk about must be the missing information that we need to complete our salvation, yet you seem reluctant to divulge not only what those “details” are but where we can find them? Is this elusive “oral tradition” that you talk about still oral or is it written down somewhere and if it is written down would it be considered scripture and the inspired word of God like the bible? If this information is necessary for our salvation, don’t you think that you should be telling everyone what it is?

Since I have addressed most of this in a previous post I will guide you to what I feel that you might be in search of:

The written is preserved in Scripture, the oral is preserved in the prayers and liturgy of the Church and the writings of the Fathers in unanimity. The preservation of both the oral and written teachings is guided by the Holy Spirit (1 Timothy 2:13-14).

Interpreting Scripture in the light of our Sacred Tradition is essential in understanding the word of God.

Peace be with you Richard.

 

[vulcano37214]

So, men like Martin Luther (Lutheran church) - and king Henry VIII (Anglican church) - and John Smyth (Baptist church) - can start their own church but I can’t?

they did not start something new, they added to the existing Church. They started different denomonations. If those people professed Jesus as Lord and Savior they were added to the Church.
Acts 2:41
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls

Take the church of scientology for example. is this church rooted in the Gospel.

 

[Irish_Polock]

they did not start something new, they added to the existing Church. They started different denomonations. If those people professed Jesus as Lord and Savior they were added to the Church.
Acts 2:41
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls

Take the church of scientology for example. is this church rooted in the Gospel.

Each of these said ecclesiastical communities have completely different views on what exactly is needed for salvation and how to go about doing the things that are needed.

Relativism is a symptom of modernism, and for myself, I find relativism has very little Truth.

Edit: typo

 

[Richard_Kastner]

To know if a particular teaching found in the holy bible is true or untrue. You believe that the bible is the Christians one and only source of truth and final authority. Is truth (of the Christians one and only authority) - knowable, with certainty, via private judgment or the judgment of church leadership?

You make it sound as if these are the only choices. The truth of the bible is made known to anyone who truly seeks, not by private judgement or by the judgement of the church leadership, but by the leadership of the Holy Spirit.Jn.14
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[joe370]

You make it sound as if these are the only choices. The truth of the bible is made known to anyone who truly seeks, not by private judgement or by the judgement of the church leadership, but by the leadership of the Holy Spirit.Jn.14
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Hi Richard, how does the holy spirit achieve this if not via private judgment or discernment of each and every Christian as they are moved by the holy spirit, or judgment or discernment of church leadership as they are moved by the holy spirit?

Was John 14:16 and John 16:13 addressed to each and every Christian, or just to Jesus’ fledging apostolic church? Don’t get me wrong, I truly believe in the indwelling of the HS in every Christian, but it doesn’t seem like the HS is guiding each and every Christian into all truth, due to the fact that there are many conflicting beliefs regarding doctrinal truth and the spirit of truth would not be responsible for said conflicts in my humble opinion.

Your thoughts friend…

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Since I have addressed most of this in a previous post I will guide you to what I feel that you might be in search of:

You have not adressed these questions at all. Here they are again.

1. What is the teaching outside of the teaching of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for our sins do we need for our salvation that is only found in the CC’s oral tradition?
2. Is this oral tradition inspired by God.

The written is preserved in Scripture,

Ok

the oral is preserved in the prayers and liturgy of the Church

Could you be more specific? Which prayers and what liturgy do we need for our salvation?

and the writings of the Fathers in unanimity.

Ok, you of coarse have a list of the “Fathers” and if I’m getting this right. You are saying that the writings of these yet to be named “Fathers” are 1) inspired by God and 2) all of their writings are in complete agreement with one another (unanimity) and 3) The unanimous inspired writing of these “Fathers” are needed for our salvation?

The preservation of both the oral and written teachings is guided by the Holy Spirit (1 Timothy 2:13-14).

Here is 1Tim2:13-14

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I’m not sure how this illustrates your point.

Interpreting Scripture in the light of our Sacred Tradition is essential in understanding the word of God.

Peace be with you Richard.

To be clear, you mean in the light of the prayers and liturgy of the church and the writings of the “Fathers” in unanimity?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi Richard, how does the holy spirit achieve this if not via private judgment or discernment of each and every Christian as they are moved by the holy spirit, or judgment or discernment of church leadership as they are moved by the holy spirit?

Excuse me joe, but how does the Holy Spirit achieve what? I don’t understand the question.

Was John 14:16 and John 16:13 addressed to each and every Christian, or just to Jesus’ fledging apostolic church? Don’t get me wrong, I truly believe in the indwelling of the HS in every Christian, but it doesn’t seem like the HS is guiding each and every Christian into all truth, due to the fact that there are many conflicting beliefs regarding doctrinal truth and the spirit of truth would not be responsible for said conflicts in my humble opinion.

Your thoughts friend…

Jesus was addressing the apostles, but I believe, and I’m sure some will disagree, that every time He is addressing the apostles He is also addressing us. I think that you are also right that the Holy Spirit definately is not leading all Christians. He does not lead in oposite directions. The simple answer would be that not all are allowing themselves to be lead. IOW in order to be lead you must be willing to follow. 1Cor2
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[joe370]

=Richard Kastner;7271331]You have not adressed these questions at all. Here they are again.

1. What is the teaching outside of the teaching of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for our sins do we need for our salvation that is only found in the CC’s oral tradition?

None, just as there are things found in scripture that are not the cause of our salvation! The cause of our salvation is Jesus the Christ. We are saved by the Jesus the Christ, and what he did for us, but we are to adhere to the beliefs of the CC which comprise both ST and SS. Heck, for the longest time there was no bound codified bible for Christians to read, and the bible is a product of tradition. The CC didn’t defer to scripture to codify scripture. It was the tradition of the CC stemming from the apostolic age and traversing each generation, that was the yardstick by which the canon of scripture was finally codified and the holy spirit gets all the credit for this preservation of truth.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

None, just as there are things found in scripture that are not the cause of our salvation!

Just to be sure. You are answering this question

1. What is the teaching outside of the teaching of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for our sins do we need for our salvation that is only found in the CC’s oral tradition?

here. So, you are in effect agreeing with SS.

The cause of our salvation is Jesus the Christ. We are saved by the Jesus the Christ, and what he did for us, but we are to adhere to the beliefs of the CC which comprise both ST and SS.

I’m not sure what you mean by ST and SS.

Heck, for the longest time there was no bound codified bible for Christians to read, and the bible is a product of tradition. The CC didn’t defer to scripture to codify scripture. It was the tradition of the CC stemming from the apostolic age and traversing each generation, that was the yardstick by which the canon of scripture was finally codified and the holy spirit gets all the credit for this preservation of truth.

If there are no traditions of the CC outside of Jesus Christ and Him crucified then all this doesn’t matter because the Apostles were teaching everything in their so called oral tradition that would eventually be codified into the bible. This whole question of sola scriptura becomes moot.

 

[schaick]

So you don’t want to address my questions? That’s cool.

What question?

 

[schaick]

Neither Paul nor any other writes, have given any statement which commands that the Church retire oral revelation, either during the writing of Scripture or once Scripture was completed. Since you are required to form your doctrine only from mandates found in Scripture, the burden of proof rests on your shoulders, to show that Scripture teaches that the propagation of apostolic oral revelation must cease with the completion of Scripture. Catholicism finds no such command in Scripture, and, in fact, finds Scripture mandating a continuing propagation and preservation of the original apostolic oral teachings. Honestly, the debate should stop here, until the you can furnish the Scriptural proof for your position, using Scripture required to give answers from sola scriptura, not answers based on what you think is correct or logical.

Like I have already stated previously, the “Burden of proof is yours”.

The Tradition of the Church has not been hidden, it has been a part of the deposit of faith since Christ left the Keys with St. Peter. St. Paul has given us a strict command in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 to hold on to both the oral and written teaching he gave us. The written is preserved in Scripture, the oral is preserved in the prayers and liturgy of the Church and the writings of the Fathers in unanimity. The preservation of both the oral and written teachings is guided by the Holy Spirit (1 Timothy 2:13-14).

For you whom believe that Scripture is your only authority, it is ironic that it is the very Scripture in which you place your absolute trust, that teaches you that there is another body of teaching outside of Scripture to which you must give allegiance. In 1 Corinthians 11:34 St. Paul writes:

if any one is hungry, let him eat at home – lest you come together to be condemned. About the other things I will give directions when I come. (1Corinthians (RSV) 11)

Notice the sentence “about the other things I will give directions when I come.”…that would be Oral Tradition that the Catholic Church has kept and protected since the time of Christ.

Actually no. The burden is on the group saying that a certain tradition was added that we need to believe for our salvation that is not contained in concrete form such as Scripture, GOD’s written Word.

Tradition of the Church has not been hidden, it has been a part of the deposit of faith Appears to be just a fancy way of saying it was hidden from our knowledge, no Christian knew, performed, acted on the tradition for generations/centuries. If not hidden it would have been in action at the very first assembly of Christians.

Prove the knowledge was passed down orally, prove that information is correct.

 

[schaick]

Schaick, who put that table of contents in the bible?

We have been over this so many times joe- I say GOD- you say the Catholic Church.

I say anyone can read the spurious Gospels and see why they were left out. You say no only the Catholic Church has that ability.

I say that the Gospels were used by the earliest Christians and were always known as the Gospel story of Jesus before it was put in any Testament. The letters, other Books were added because they help explain, guide people in how to use what was always known as Gospel.

 

[schaick]

Hey all - I am going to be away from the computer for about 3-4 days.

LOL!! Just wanted to let you know I’m not ignoring anyone!!

GOD Bless!

 

[inkaneer]

I do not believe that the Catholic Church as we know hertoday existed back then. I would need further research to p(name removed by moderator)oint a date so please forgive my inaccuracy. I believe that the Church, the One Church, that came into existence at Pentecost is what we see today in what you might wish to call the invisible Church.

I do not believe that the Catholic Church is the One Church. I do however believe that there are members of the One Church within the Catholic Church. I do not believe that the Orthodox Church is the One Church. I do however believe that there are members of the One Church within the Orthodox Church. I do not believe that the Lutheran Church is the One Church. I do however believe that there are members of the One Church within the Lutheran Church. I do not believe that the Anglican Church is the One Church. I do however believe that there are members of the One Church within the Anglican Church. I do not believe that the Methodist Church is the One Church. I do however believe that there are members of the One Church within the Methodist Church. I do not believe that the Baptist Church is the One Church. I do however believe that there are members of the One Church within the Baptist Church. I do not believe that the Church of Latter-day Saints is the One Church. I do however believe that there are members of the One Church within the Church of Latter-day Saints.

Any denomination, any split, any group may have members of the One Church within itself. God alone knows the sheep from the goats.
The One Church is made up of all those who are united to Christ through regeneration and salvation and who will be eternally united to Jesus Christ in eternal life.

The visible Church is all of the congregations where Christians meet. Within the visible Church there are saved as well as unsaved people. There are people who are not saved within the visible Church. Going to a churc does not make anybody a Christian just as entering a garage does not make me a car.

All Christians are part of the invisible Church, the One Church that was founded by Christ and upon Christ. We are the Christian Church.

This is protestant gobbly gook. They claim there is this ‘invisible church’ for one reason and only one reason. They can’t bring themselves to admit they are not part of the only Church that Jesus established. So they make up this myth of some church that no one can see that encompasses all denominations like an umbrella. It saves them the task of defining true doctrine. They call it “big tent” christianity where all are welcomed and doctrine takes a back seat to “religious correctness”. But reading the scriptures it is plain as day that Jesus said he would establish **A **church and he selected 12 very visible people to be its stewards. And like the OT Davidic kings [Jesus was a Davidic king also] He chose one of these twelve stewards to be His chief steward. And like the OT Davidic chief steward this NT chief steward would have the keys to the kingdom. That church came into existence in a very visible way after being empowered by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. That church has been visible ever since or else we would not have a record of it in every century up to the present day and that history is often times written in the blood of the martyrs. Protestants would like to think this “invisible church” existed but only bloomed after 1500 years after Pentecost. But if the church was really an “invisible church” how do they know it was there? Did it leave a record? If so, it was hardly invisible now, was it?.

 

[inkaneer]

We have been over this so many times joe- I say GOD- you say the Catholic Church.

I say anyone can read the spurious Gospels and see why they were left out. You say no only the Catholic Church has that ability.

I say that the Gospels were used by the earliest Christians and were always known as the Gospel story of Jesus before it was put in any Testament. The letters, other Books were added because they help explain, guide people in how to use what was always known as Gospel.

Yeah, I do the same thing on Mondays when I analyze the football games on Sunday. Being a Monday morning quarterback works great for football as well as bible canon. But read a history of the canon of scripture and how many different canons were proposed by different people that included spurious writings while leaving out some legitimate writings. Obviously early christians could not, as you claim, “see why they were left out”. Unlike you they could not “Monday morning quarterback” the scriptures. Furthermore, it was not until late fourth century/ early fifth century that the canon was finally resolved. And by the way that canon had 73 books not 66. The 66 book perversion did not come into existence untill the 16th century. Christianity accepted 73 book canon for over a millenium before some Johnny come latelies who claimed no authority decided otherwise.

In addition, the need for a Written Tradition was not to create some self study guide to Christianity. That is another protestant perversion. The purpose for the canonization of Written Tradition was liturgical; so that churches in all parts of the world would use the same writings as the readings in the Divine Liturgy of the Mass.

 

[traillius]

The Holy Spirit didn’t cease to influence teaching between years of 100 AD and 1500 AD. To say it did is to risk the ‘unforgiveable’ sin of attributing the works of the spirit to something other than the spirit. Better you than me to do that. May God forgive us all, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy.

 

[inkaneer]

Actually no. The burden is on the group saying that a certain tradition was added that we need to believe for our salvation that is not contained in concrete form such as Scripture, GOD’s written Word.

Tradition of the Church has not been hidden, it has been a part of the deposit of faith Appears to be just a fancy way of saying it was hidden from our knowledge, no Christian knew, performed, acted on the tradition for generations/centuries. If not hidden it would have been in action at the very first assembly of Christians.

Prove the knowledge was passed down orally, prove that information is correct.

Well start with 2 Thess 2:15 where Paul tells the Thessalonians to hold onto the Oral Tradition as well as the written one. That passage is timeless. It is immutable as God is immutable. Show me where in scripture that passage has been repealed. You can’t because it hasn’t. The oral Tradition llives on in the Church. It was what the church operated on before the canon of scripture was agreed upon. The early church insisted on Apostolic Succession as the means of knowing who to believe. That was the pedigree of the church established by Jesus and it remains so today. No 16th century (or later) johnny come lately protestant denomination has that pedigree. If the early christians could somehow come back today they would undoubtedly denounce all of protestantism as heretical.

Now as to how we know that information is correct, we do that by acknowledging Jesus own words that The Holy Spirit would guide the Church, that the Church would be empowered to bind and loose on earth as well as in heaven and that the Church would prevail over hell. Did you ever stop and think how the church would not prevail over hell? The is only one way for hell to win over the church and that is for the church to teach error. But Jesus said that protected by the Holy Spirit that would not happen. So we can be fully assured that the doctrinal teaching of the Church is correct.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
Does the CC keep and teach to keep, the commandments of God and have the spirit of prophecy?

Please excuse my budding in

Richard my friend in Christ;

Catholics are completely human and as **1; John 1:8-10 **say’s: “we are all sinners!”

However ONLY in the Catholic Church can one be assued of KNOWING that our sins have been forgive. NOT simply hoping and wishing; BUT actauly knowing. John 20:19-**23 **

Further Catholics ought to be more acoountable to God because as Christ tells us: ** Matt.13: 12 **“For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away”.

Catholics have the Seven sacramnts all Instituted by Christ; including the Sacramntof Confession [John 20:19], and th Sacrament to "which all sacrament point: The Most Holy Eucharist; Christ Himself in our midst.

Because of these God will be a MUCH harsher judge on us than other Christians.

Do Catholics keep the Commandments?

DOES ANYONE

As “to the Spirit of prophsey” My friend my I ask yo to read your bible; the following verses, in the sequece given, please:

Mt.16:19; Mt. 28:19-20; Jn. 20:19; Eph. 2:19-20; John 14: 16-17; and John 17: 14-19.

And then friend ponder this truth…

Eph. 4: 4 -8“ There is one body Only One Church] and one Spirit, Only One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, One God] one faith, Only One set of doctrine and dogmas] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. "

FYI: God Inspired Prophsey has ended with the Codified Bible, which by the way remains a Catholic Book.

May God continue to Bless and guide friend.

 

[vulcano37214]

Each of these said ecclesiastical communities have completely different views on what exactly is needed for salvation and how to go about doing the things that are needed.

Relativism is a symptom of modernism, and for myself, I find relativism has very little Truth.

Edit: typo

That this why we have to go to an authoritative source which is Gods Word.

 

[inkaneer]

That this why we have to go to an authoritative source which is Gods Word.

And do what with it? Interpret it? How do you think you got the myriads of protestant denominations that exist today? The source is authoritative but the interpretation is not. Protestants would like to wrap themselves in the mantle of Holy Scripture because they know full well that by their denial of any authority other than scripture they have no authority to interpret scripture so their interpretations leaves them naked.