Infallability

[po18guy]

Is the book available online?

For sale only. I highly recommend it, and I learn something each time I read my copy. As well, a few of the pertinent sections from the catechism regarding infallibility:

2033 The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors. Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the “deposit” of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity. Alongside the Creed and the Our Father, the basis for this catechesis has traditionally been the Decalogue which sets out the principles of moral life valid for all men.

2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.

 

[devoutchristian]

For sale only. I highly recommend it, and I learn something each time I read my copy. As well, a few of the pertinent sections from the catechism regarding infallibility:

2033 The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors. Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the “deposit” of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity. Alongside the Creed and the Our Father, the basis for this catechesis has traditionally been the Decalogue which sets out the principles of moral life valid for all men.

2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.

None of those quotes indicates that the Catechism is infallible, authoritative yes, but not infallible.

 

[po18guy]

For those who take the time to read, it will soon be realized that the catechism is a compendium of Catholic doctrine that has been produced via the “Ordinary Magisterium” of the Church. Doctrines are never changed, as they are the infallible and unchangeable teachings of the Church. Doctrines can be improved, as the Church’s understanding of revealed truth advances, but any such improvement may never contradict that doctrine upon which it is based. It may clarify and refine, but not change the substance of the doctrine.

For those who remain unconvinced, from the introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Libreria Editrice Vaticana), Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum, penned and signed by Pope John Paul II, and given the Imprimi Potest by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, page 5, section 3:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of theKingdom!

In short, the catechism is not a collection of malleable suggestions.

 

[devoutchristian]

In short, the catechism is not a collection of malleable suggestions.

I never said it was. My point was simply that not every sentence in the Catechism is an infallible truth of the faith.

 

[po18guy]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5677558&postcount=25

 

[steve_b]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I have a Protestant friend who is unabashedly anti-Catholic. One of his main thrusts is the teaching of infallibility. He seems to try to point out inconsistencies in the teaching of infallibility such as this article, where the Vatican seemingly contradicted the Pope.

p.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/30/not-so-fast-vatican-contradicts-comment-pope-franc/

When is church teaching infallible, or official doctrine? Can it be a quote from the Pope regarding a certain topic? Does he have to add “This is official church doctrine”, or “This is an infallible teaching”.

Confused,
Big BC

Here’s the definition

1. 
   *
   • we **teach and define **as a divinely revealed dogma that
   • when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
   • that is, when,
     1. in the exercise of **his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, **
     2. in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
     3. he **defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, **
     4. he possesses,
     5. **by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, **
     6. **that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. **
     7. **Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable. **
     papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm
     
     iow, when the pope
     • teaches and defines a doctrine, concerning faith and morals (only)
     • to be held by the entire Church
     then by the Divine assistance promised to Peter by Our Lord, and infallibility Our Lord willed for His Church in defining doctrines on faith and morals, thus those definitions by the pope are irreformable.
     
     When you see the words “teach and define” concerniong a doctrine on faith or morals to be held by the entire Church, that’s a pretty good rule of thumb that definition is going to be irreformable.

 

[ahs]

For those who take the time to read, it will soon be realized that the catechism is a compendium of Catholic doctrine that has been produced via the “Ordinary Magisterium” of the Church. Doctrines are never changed, as they are the infallible and unchangeable teachings of the Church. Doctrines can be improved, as the Church’s understanding of revealed truth advances, but any such improvement may never contradict that doctrine upon which it is based. It may clarify and refine, but not change the substance of the doctrine.

For those who remain unconvinced, from the introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Libreria Editrice Vaticana), Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum, penned and signed by Pope John Paul II, and given the Imprimi Potest by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, page 5, section 3:

In short, the catechism is not a collection of malleable suggestions.

I never said it was. My point was simply that not every sentence in the Catechism is an infallible truth of the faith.

On the chance that you guys are saying the same thing without realizing it, I hunted down this great explanation from Brother “JReduction”:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10729718&postcount=16

 

[Ron_Conte]

The Magisterium teaches infallibly in any of three ways:
A. Papal infallibility
B. Conciliar infallibility (the definitive teachings of an Ecumenical Council)
C. the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

A. Papal infallibility only applies when the teaching of the Pope meets all of the conditions taught by Vatican I and reiterated by Vatican II.

First Vatican Council:

1. “the Roman Pontiff”
2. “speaks ex cathedra” (“that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….”)
3. “he defines”
4. “that a doctrine concerning faith or morals”
5. “must be held by the whole Church”

Second Vatican Council:

1. “the Roman Pontiff”
2. “in virtue of his office, when as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (cf. Lk 22:32),”
3. “by a definitive act, he proclaims”
4. “a doctrine of faith or morals” (“And this infallibility…in defining doctrine of faith and morals, extends as far as the deposit of revelation extends”)
5. “in accordance with revelation itself, which all are obliged to abide by and be in conformity with”

B. Conciliar infallibility must meet a similar set of conditions, except that the teaching is of the Council (the body of Bishops gathered with the Pope).

C. The teaching of the ordinary and universal Magisterium is like Conciliar infallibility except that the Bishops are dispersed through the world, not gathered in a Council.

Vatican II (LG 25) – “Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.”

Vatican II (LG 25) – “This is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, whose definitions must be adhered to with the submission of faith.”

All other teachings of the Magisterium are non-infallible.

 

[Evan]

Concerning the “infallible” teachings of the Catechism. Here is an example of a paragraph in the CCC that IS NOT infallible, in fact, it is only an option, given some societal aspects that may or may not be true. Hardly infallible

2667 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

It appears that it is saying “Use your prudential judgement, we have not definitive teaching”

 

[poustiniak]

Lets take a case in point.

Lets look at what your protestant friends might say about the infallibility of the decision that our Lady was assumed into Heaven.

 

[poustiniak]

We live in a world where the only thing that we obey is the force of law because at the end of the day the force of law can take away everything that you think that you own. The truth is that you own nothing. So even your opinions belong to someone else, because you’ve read them somewhere, be it a book, or in your parents caresses. So at the end of the day nobody knows anything anymore, which is just the way that everyone loves it to be. That’s democracy!
So it shouldn’t come as any surprise if there still exists some minority part of this world that believes that someone knows the truth about something let alone everything, that the majority should object. No! we cry out! We all know that nobody knows everything! How else can anyone go back to sleep.
We live in a society that loves to sleep. It sleeps with everything and with everyone. It maintains a state of perpetual docility because everyone has their eyes closed everywhere that they go and to everything that they do. So it is profoundly adverse to the notion that there could be a small group of people that are wise to it all and know how unwise we have all become.
The problem of the Catholic Church today is that the infallible ones have taken it upon themselves to tell the rest of us dozers that they are still awake and in control. They have proclaimed their infallibility by putting it to a vote “While we were sleeping“. So that in our dreams we object, and yet can do nothing about it but to quote scripture and slumber off back into our dreams.
It is true that the Church is dead. Satan has taken it over. But it’s still alive in some pockets where that bastard can’t get to it and never shall. So in a sense its a perverse reversal of the simple fact that our Lord’s promises are true and that not even the gate of hell will pervade over it, because in a sense Satan has made a stupid mistake in forcing this infallibility upon it, which it never wanted nor asked for.
So as a good Christian you should agree with your protestant friend and morn the lost innocence of our holy mother church, but you should also pray most fervently for our holy father Francis because he is in charge of a lost cause and a new hope.

 

[po18guy]

Concerning the “infallible” teachings of the Catechism. Here is an example of a paragraph in the CCC that IS NOT infallible, in fact, it is only an option, given some societal aspects that may or may not be true. Hardly infallible

It appears that it is saying “Use your prudential judgement, we have not definitive teaching”

It is a teaching on morals, and not faith. Therefore, the counsel it provides may be taken as infallibly taught. If society can be protected without the death penalty, then the death penalty is ultimately unjust. If a society cannot be protected without the death penalty, then the penalty may be used, but only under those limited circumstances - out of concern for the innocents in society. Do you see the difference?

 

[Ron_Conte]

It is a teaching on morals, and not faith. Therefore, the counsel it provides may be taken as infallibly taught. If society can be protected without the death penalty, then the death penalty is ultimately unjust. If a society cannot be protected without the death penalty, then the penalty may be used, but only under those limited circumstances - out of concern for the innocents in society. Do you see the difference?

Colorado Catholic Conference: “In some moral matters the use of reason allows for a legitimate diversity in our prudential judgments. Catholic voters may differ, for example, on what constitutes the best immigration policy, how to provide universal health care, or affordable housing. Catholics may even have differing judgments on the state’s use of the death penalty or the decision to wage a just war. The morality of such questions lies not in what is done (the moral object), but in the motive and circumstances. Therefore, because these prudential judgments do not involve a direct choice of something evil, and take into consideration various goods, it is possible for Catholic voters to arrive at different, even opposing judgments.”

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: “Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

The assertion by the CCC and by Pope John Paul II that society is able to do without the death penalty is a prudential judgment. The assertion that the death penalty is not inherently immoral is a teaching.

The CCC contains some infallible teachings, having been established as infallible in other documents under papal infallibility or conciliar infallibility. It also contains some teachings that are infallible under the ordinary and universal Magisterium, in which it participates. Other teachings in the CCC are non-infallible. Then there are assertions pertaining to society, prudential judgment, discipline and practices within the Church, rather than teachings.

 

[po18guy]

Colorado Catholic Conference: “In some moral matters the use of reason allows for a legitimate diversity in our prudential judgments. Catholic voters may differ, for example, on what constitutes the best immigration policy, how to provide universal health care, or affordable housing. Catholics may even have differing judgments on the state’s use of the death penalty or the decision to wage a just war. The morality of such questions lies not in what is done (the moral object), but in the motive and circumstances. Therefore, because these prudential judgments do not involve a direct choice of something evil, and take into consideration various goods, it is possible for Catholic voters to arrive at different, even opposing judgments.”

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: “Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

The assertion by the CCC and by Pope John Paul II that society is able to do without the death penalty is a prudential judgment. The assertion that the death penalty is not inherently immoral is a teaching.

The CCC contains some infallible teachings, having been established as infallible in other documents under papal infallibility or conciliar infallibility. It also contains some teachings that are infallible under the ordinary and universal Magisterium, in which it participates. Other teachings in the CCC are non-infallible. Then there are assertions pertaining to society, prudential judgment, discipline and practices within the Church, rather than teachings.

The prudential nature of any counsel which the Church provides via the catechism should be apparent from the content of the paragraph. If there is doubt, we can always ask the Church for clarification.