Infallibility and the Crusades

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Perfect love is salvation, the only reason why we live as we are learning about love itself. I do not agree with martyrdom because everyone suffers on Earth for the gain of a greater good. The crusades purpose has many meanings involved in it and to try to just state that it was Holy is an injustice to our Father because we should never kill another.
 
fordham.edu/halsall/source/urban2-5vers.html

From #1. Fulcher of Chartres
“All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested…”
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vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4G.HTM

CCC 1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.89
 
chook said:
Perfect love is salvation, the only reason why we live as we are learning about love itself. I do not agree with martyrdom because everyone suffers on Earth for the gain of a greater good. The crusades purpose has many meanings involved in it and to try to just state that it was Holy is an injustice to our Father because we should never kill another.
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what do you mean you don’t agree with martyrdom? everyone suffers yes, but not everyone dies.

Pacifism is morally irreprehensible. If killing is wrong then God was wrong in ordering the Israelites every time they conquered a new people in the promise land.
 
katholikos12 said:
So the Pope can grant salvation to someone just like that, without them being baptized, or having confessed that Christ is their Savior?
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katholikos12 said:
So the Pope is infallible when speaking on matters of Faith and Morals and ex cathedra.

So Pope Urban II guaranteed salvation for those who up took the first crusade? It seems a rather official statement on faith and morals in this case? Was he not speaking ex cathedra? Or was he right and all those received salvation?

Perhaps I am misinterpreting this as the pope granting an indulgence for sins to those who went on the crusade?
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There are three types of recognized baptism and those not otherwise baptized, and who fell in a holy war, had the baptism of desire (that of the repentant thief on the cross), as they died defending the Christian faith. As well, the Church has the power of binding and loosing “whatever” according to Christ (Matthew 16:19, Matthew 18:18).

As well, the Pope was not proclaiming an official teaching, but an exhortation to defend the faith. Infallibility is extremely limited in all cases.

Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? It is an excellent reference that all RCIA programs should use. I learn something each time I read my copy. It is a resource that you will be able to rely upon for years to come.
 
po18guy said:
Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? It is an excellent reference that all RCIA programs should use. I learn something each time I read my copy. It is a resource that you will be able to rely upon for years to come.
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I do not have a copy, but i have a number of apologetics books. Coming from a fundamentalist family I spend a lot of time defending what I am now finding to be true.
 
po18guy said:
Infallibility is extremely limited in all cases.

Catholicism for Dummies
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Just observing, but I understood the first I quoted from your post.
And I chuckled - respectfully - with the second. Of all the books I have to read regarding Catholicism, many of which are not confusing, but overwhelming for an anxious person, :juggle:who wants to learn - yesterday - and this, you say is the one the RCIA should use??

Thank you!!! Problem solved!! You have made my day!!!

:extrahappy:
 
katholikos12 said:
I do not have a copy, but i have a number of apologetics books. Coming from a fundamentalist family I spend a lot of time defending what I am now finding to be true.
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Catholicism for Dummies would still be a good resource, and one that you could lend to family who questions your faith. It is written in a very easily understood style. I hope that you fins CAF a resource, as well, as family can be brutal at times! 😦
 
po18guy said:
Catholicism for Dummies would still be a good resource, and one that you could lend to family who questions your faith. It is written in a very easily understood style. I hope that you fins CAF a resource, as well, as family can be brutal at times! 😦
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CAF is answering many questions for me thank you! I only hope i can return the favor to others.

My priest really likes my approach and even wants me to talk to non-catholic clergy in attempts to convince them of RCC truth, which is encouraging, but daunting. I feel like i don’t know anything.
 
katholikos12 said:
CAF is answering many questions for me thank you! I only hope i can return the favor to others.

My priest really likes my approach and even wants me to talk to non-catholic clergy in attempts to convince them of RCC truth, which is encouraging, but daunting. I feel like i don’t know anything.
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CAF has answered many for me as well. YEA!! And what a compliment your priest gave!!
👍
 
Our Father gave us free will, he never orders anything because consciousness as its NATURE naturally formed through his own perfect consciousness.

Father in the Bible is not the God of Light discussion as there is no justice in killing or murder and it is against his Holy Law.

The Bible was only correctly understood and read by those who knew its Truth, and when you try to interpret these discussions you are far from our Father’s Light truth.

Just remember that these documents were once a hidden document and not discussed in public until they were released into the public forum under a dictatorial role in our past.

The interpretations are not correct because they were placed in an order for the use of causing a new aversion tactic against other’s holy religious belief, hence as the Catholic forum in this age was against the Hebrew versions of the Jehovah, it was taught as a method in the Church to condone the killing of other’s religions by the brothers who had overthrown the orders within the Church community itself…just as the Catholic Church today has demonstrated infighting between the different brotherhood orders and at times even disputes leading to the murder of the Pope himself…this has always been the same, as the Church has many differing orders or brothers all vying for the highest order.

Hence these documents are not in accordance to God’s Holy Law of Light that does not allow for murder.

Therefore when these documents have been used to try to state that God created the atom, obviously he did not and it was the ancients themselves who attacked our Father’s natural and beautiful Earth and caused the metal atom themselves.
 
Gorgias said:
Let me try again ;):

it’s not so much that he’s granting salvation, per se. Rather, it’s that he’s declaring something about the nature of the crusade: anyone who dies on the crusade is a martyr.
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Well, in all fairness, you can try again, but he is granting salvation. If that’s what he said, then he IS granting salvation. Here’s the quote again:
“If those who go thither lose their lives on land or sea during the journey, or in battle against the pagans, their sins will at once be forgiven; I grant this through the power of God conferred on me,”
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Regine (ed.), “The Crusades”, translated by Enid McLeod, G.P. Putnum’s Sons, New York, 1962, p. 23, 24
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Rence said:
Well, in all fairness, you can try again, but he is granting salvation. If that’s what he said, then he IS granting salvation.
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Thats what i’m gettin at! If his authority comes from the “loose on earth/heaven bound in earth/heaven” then can someone explain further how that justifies the granting of salvation.

Or is this not ex cathedra?

and what exactly is the definition for ex cathedra?
 
katholikos12 said:
What gives the Pope the right to declare that they are all martyrs if they die? Also the verse you stated earlier talks of the level of ones love; not that an act of perfect love will guarantee salvation./QUOTE

Our Lord said to Peter:
“And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”
So, what’s the problem?
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Rence said:
Well, in all fairness, you can try again, but he is granting salvation. If that’s what he said, then he IS granting salvation. Here’s the quote again:
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If. That’s a pretty big if, don’t you think, considering that we don’t have any official transcript of his pronouncement, and that there are significant differences between the various versions of the recollections that folks have of his words, and that the folks who make these accusations are generally unfriendly to Catholic sentiments?

And, as it turns out, if all he said was an expression of the existing teaching that martyrs go to heaven, along with a pronouncement that one’s death in this defense of Christians against non-Christians counted as a martyr’s death… then it isn’t all as intense as you’re making it out to be, it’s it?
 
katholikos12 said:
Thats what i’m gettin at! If his authority comes from the “loose on earth/heaven bound in earth/heaven” then can someone explain further how that justifies the granting of salvation.

Or is this not ex cathedra?

and what exactly is the definition for ex cathedra?
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“ex cathedra” literally means “from the chair”, as in the Chair of Peter, which is a state of being unable to err in matters of faith and morals, and the teaching applies to the whole Church.

I’m not in a position to explain how that justifies the granting of salvation to those who went off to fight in the Crusades the way this previous Pope did. I honestly don’t get it, but whatever. To me, a martyr dies for the faith in some way, in a why that they had little choice to do anything else…as opposed to someone who voluntarily and knowingly goes out and puts themselves in the middle of a battlefield. To me, it reads like the Pope was trying to send out soldiers and enticing them with a promise of eternal salvation, but I wasn’t there, I don’t know. But I can understand your confusion.

But whether or not this constitutes an ex cathedra teaching about faith and morals, I don’t know. You might want to ask a priest…
 
oldcatholicguy said:
You may want to refine your statement as there are religious orders that are pacifist (if the term is defined as the non-use of violence).
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I do not agree with complete defenselessness for the sake of veering from violence. If that is the choice of a religious order, fine; but those who do take up arms will always be subject to those who do. Self defense is a right, if one gives up that right that is their call.

It is morally irreprehensible when one will not take up violence to defend someone who is helpless simply because they are “pacifist”
 
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