Infallibly declared dogmas of the Catholic church

[Searching1]

No I thought dogmas were things like the assumption and the fact that we all have individual souls

 

[Pai_Nosso]

I thought I was being flagged on here… Anyway, much to learn i still have.

 

[Searching1]

You can struggle with a belief and still believe.

I struggle with dogmas around Adam and Eve.

 

[Nicene]

To be honest these aren’t convincing arguments first for the fact that Jesus prophesied they would happen in the church, second good luck finding the sinless church especially regarding sexual sin, you’ll also find that in sacred scripture. Which means by your own argument that the church wasn’t the church from the very beginning. One would also have to argue that in fact Jesus failed out of the gate due to Judas, the greatest sinner of them all. So by this same argument Jesus church isn’t the true church either.

To paraphrase Jesus why are you looking at everyone else’s sin as though yours, if you seem to have any, are less than theirs? Log meets splinter. Jesus idea of the church is that we intercede for each other, especially those in gravest sin.

Imagine if Jesus had said or even thought, “Gee these ones are too sinful for me” St Peter is the person I personally admire in sacred scripture because he kept failing Christ, probably the greatest sinner outside of Judas, because he kept picking himself up, asking for forgiveness and persevering. My guess is that’s why Jesus chose him.

Like I said though, good luck for your quest for the sinless church, or at least the sins you find acceptable. When you think you’ve found it read 1 John 1 again.

With regard to Mary Protestants are spot on when they say some have gone into idolatry on Mary, and the Church warns the faithful about it. However with regard to your quadrinity comment I challenge you to find the “dogma of the trinity” in sacred scripture. But you really first should answer the question posed above about the dogma of the books of sacred scripture above. Which books really are in sacred scripture? You better not lean on tradition for that, you’ll need explicit reference from the books themselves for that.

Last question, according to Jesus, did he leave a book in charge or the leaders of the church he founded?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Searching1]

We are called to grant intellectual assent to the doctrines.

IMO, “Dogma” is misleading in this context. All dogma is doctrine, but not all doctrine is dogma.

Is this a distinction without a difference? You are saying those terms are not used interchangeably?

 

[Pai_Nosso]

To be honest these aren’t convincing arguments

Stop treating me like someone who is challenging your position. Im not making any arguments against you, rather providing my line of reasoning as to why I have doubts. Spewing out the arguments used against protestants is just frustrating. Try treating Catholics with these issues differently to the way u guys treat protestants.

U didn’t actually address my reasons, given u think they are unconvincing they should be easy to explain.
Start with.

How do u expect one to have faith in the church given the crimes committed by clergy?
How does one follow a pope like Francis who has been even more of a heretic than myself?
Where exactly did immaculate conception and perpetual virginity come from? Why was it only added in the 19th century? And why is it even relevant to my belief in God?

 

[Searching1]

How do u expect one to have faith in the church given the crimes committed by clergy?
How does one follow a pope like Francis who has been even more of a heretic than myself?

We are all sinners. Papal infallibility applies only when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.

I think each and every Catholic who hasn’t given into despair over the sex abuse crisis and who still attends mass - I think it is they who are the most ardent advocates for reform and transparency.

 

[Pai_Nosso]

I will ask the important question that may be where the issue is once again-

You dont have a problem with the church declaring the canon of the NT without biblical evidence do you?

The step by step approach, ok. My answer is no. Next

 

[Pai_Nosso]

Papal infallibility applies only in dogmatic matters. He cannot simply make the sky polka dotted by saying “the sky is polka dotted.”

He can however declare Our Lady of the Amazon to be dogma and you would all have to believe it.

 

[whatistrue]

He can however declare Our Lady of the Amazon to be dogma and you would all have to believe it.

However, if it is not truth then the Holy Spirit will not allow it to be so declared. The doctrine of Papal Infallibility is not so much giving power to the Pope but saying that under the circumstances described (ex cathedra, on faith and morals, etc.) that the Pope under the guidance of the Holy Spirit cannot declare something false to be true.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Try treating Catholics with these issues differently to the way u guys treat protestants.

One does not use a different tool for a square nail than they use for a circular one. The root of the issue is the same, it will be addressed as such.

 

[Ean_Fanaiochta]

How do u expect one to have faith in the church given the crimes committed by clergy?

I have a lot of trouble with this also. It’s disgusting. At times I am horrified and want no part of it. But where would I go? I used to be Protestant, but this abuse is rampant in their churches as well. It’s not front and center like news about the Catholic church, but it’s there. Although the Southern Baptists have been getting a lot of press lately. But abuse occurs in the Orthodox and other branches of Christianity.

To get away from clergy abuse, I would have to abandon organized Christianity altogether, and I don’t want to do that.

No debate here, but you aren’t going to find a church that is free of the scourge of clergy sexual abuse.

 

[Pai_Nosso]

One does not use a different tool for a square nail than they use for a circular one. The root of the issue is the same, it will be addressed as such.

You will get little response then from struggling Catholics. The root is not the same as they are protestant and im not. Our roots aren’t even in the same garden The approach is to belittle protestants who are challenging you. Im not challenging u.

 

[Nicene]

Actually it did and wasn’t directed at Protestants, who via the catechism, can and usually do have a degree of ignorance “through no fault of their own.”

But your premise on sexual sin, which apparently accuses the entirety of the clergy, but in actuality is only two percent, discards the church as the true church. However as I stated earlier it occurred in the New Testament in the church already 1 Cor for example ergo by your own argument the church in the New Testament is not in fact the church.

You don’t need to answer the questions I posed above here or any other thread, but you do need to ask yourself those questions and attempt to answer them honestly. Especially are any one else’s sins so much greater in Gods eyes than mine?

Just to give context, biblically sexual sins are the second most grievous sins in the Bible. According to Jesus even looking at someone with lust is as grievous as the ones you mention. Masturbation? Yep that as well. Are your sins, be honest with yourself, any less grievous than theirs? You don’t have to answer here, I’m speaking of examination of conscience.

Biblically, did God reneg on his promise to David after David killed a man just so he could marry his wife? It’s an important question regarding Gods fidelity. You’ll also find it in Romans:

3:3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?
4 By no means! Let God be true though every man be false, as it is written, “That thou mayest be justified in thy words,
and prevail when thou art judged.”

However St James also tells us about judgement saying that when we judge others we put ourselves in place of God and he continues “There is but one judge and one lawgiver”

The idea is that we humble ourselves, because honestly, we’re not so great. Hence the need for a redeemer.

Hopefully that clarifies what I’ve been trying to get across. These aren’t accusations but things you should seriously ask yourself.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[adf417]

adf417:

I will ask the important question that may be where the issue is once again-

You dont have a problem with the church declaring the canon of the NT without biblical evidence do you?

The step by step approach, ok. My answer is no. Next

Thank you for your reply.

So when you say -

The church has the authority to declare whatever dogma they wish. It doesn’t need any biblical evidence and can declare dogma with or without divine revelation. This is what I have a hard time believing.

What is the difference?
If you can believe the canon of scripture the church set is the true word of God how can you take that word on your own interpretation and use it against the same church that gave it to us? If it didn’t need biblical evidence to give us the NT why do you think it needs biblical evidence for other beliefs? If the church is wrong now how do you know it wasn’t wrong then?

Peace!!!

 

[Nicene]

This is one I’ve always had a problem with due to the fact that I’ll bet dollars to donuts most Catholics don’t even know what dogmas there are or how many. Second I have a niece with a 90 IQ and a nephew with a 60 IQ. The one with the 60 IQ is very devout. Do you honestly think he could understand most of the dogmas or give intellectual ascent? What he does know is that he trusts Jesus and he trusts the church is telling the truth. And that trust is what the church wants from us all.

Ten bucks says he could also flatten you with math, he is literally rain man.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

Do you actually think they even know what those terms mean? I challenge you to ask a 6 or even 10 yr old those exact questions without trying to explain what sin is, immaculate or even conception.

Ask those same questions exactly as you’ve said them without any further (name removed by moderator)ut on your part.

As well I have 7 siblings from 40 to 70, I guarantee I’m the only one who knows all those dogmas, and yet they imo are better Catholics than I.

One of the best things to remember is that God wants us to just trust him and approach him as little children, Jesus words not mine, though I’m paraphrasing.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Usagi]

Where exactly did immaculate conception and perpetual virginity come from? Why was it only added in the 19th century? And why is it even relevant to my belief in God?

It’s true that Mary’s Immaculate Conception and her Assumption were dogmatized relatively recently and thus their status is not recognized by the Orthodox Churches.

On the other hand, Mary’s perpetual virginity and status as God-bearer are very much taught by the Orthodox. While I’m not certain what form it takes, I’m fairly sure they also practice prayer to Mary and the saints and have other traditional beliefs and practices that are not 100% verified in the written Scriptures. That’s just par for the course if you want to belong to any of the ancient churches. Starting with a Bible in your hand and trying to derive Christianity from it is one of those newfangled traditions of men from a few hundred years ago.

 

[adf417]

On the other hand, Mary’s perpetual virginity and status as God-bearer are very much taught by the Orthodox. While I’m not certain what form it takes,

The Council of Ephesus in AD 431

Theotokos - Wikipedia

 

[Chistian-ity]

I think this is important to discuss this. It’s very hard to know every single thing. It doesn’t matter if you get what you think to be an aggressive comment because it’s just over the internet and doesn’t matter