Infant Baptism - Laying out the facts

[Cathoholic]

Scitor. You posted in 448:

I asked this before, but will ask again. Did Christ lie when he said to the thief on the cross, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise?” Was the thief baptized?

Of course Christ didn’t lie. Your question has built-in presumptions that are false. It assumes that if Catholics don’t agree with you, Catholics are asserting Jesus as a liar.

I reject your built-in presupposition.

Now back to your “question”.

The good thief may very well have been baptized. We don’t know one way or the other.

Catholics could ask you the same type of question about the saved souls in Heaven in the Book of Revelation.

We could ask WHEN these guys accepted Jesus into their hearts as “personal Lord and Savior”. But that wouldn’t get us anywhere (You would just say they did so in their earthly lives, but it is not posted in Scripture).

Just like you asking above, this doesn’t get us anywhere . . .

You said:

I asked this before, but will ask again. Did Christ lie when he said to the thief on the cross, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise?” Was the thief baptized?

The good thief may very well HAVE been Baptized. We do not know.

JOHN 4:1-3 1 Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), 3 he left Judea and departed again to Galilee.

Either way is classic Catholic teaching.

CCC 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

(CCC above italics original, Trent bold [below] mine)

TRENT CHAPETER IV (On Justification) And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

The “desire” is only for people who cannot, not “WILL not”, be born of “water and the Spirit”.

You also asked:

Did the thief go to heaven? Did he first go to purgatory?

We only know the good thief went to “paradise” which means he assuredly did not go to eternal perdition. All we know is what Jesus told us in the Gospels.

“This day” you will be with Me (Jesus) in paradise” does not necessarily mean Heaven.

Jesus told Mary Magdalene . . . .

JOHN 20:17a Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father . . .

Are you asserting Jesus DID yet ascend to His Father Scitor? If not, WHERE did Jesus and the Good Thief end up that day? All you can say is “paradise”. Adam and Eve were in “paradise” in a sense too, but that does not mean they were in Heaven.

You said:

Can you not see the many contradictions.

No. I see no contradictions.

You also said:

In order to answer my question about the thief you will tell me “baptism by desire,” which is completely unsupported.

Baptism of Desire is NOT the topic here. Infant Baptism is.

Let’s not morph the challenge to Catholics to show Infant Baptism, then bait and switch to defending Baptism of desire. This would be the fallacy of equivocation if we were to insist upon that (Catholic CAN support Baptism of Desire, but to do so here, takes away from the issue).

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Oh yes he did.

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Acts 13:
1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

Lots of win here!

 

[JonNC]

=Cathoholic;11658408]Scitor. You posted in

I asked this before, but will ask again. Did Christ lie when he said to the thief on the cross, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise?” Was the thief baptized

Of course Christ didn’t lie. Your question has built-in presumptions that are false. It assumes that if Catholics don’t agree with you, Catholics are asserting Jesus as a liar.

I reject your built-in presupposition.

:clapping: Well said. This rhetorical polemic is not worthy of CAF.

Jon

 

[ckutac]

I find this approach uncharitable. Sometimes the smartest people misunderstand, or misconstrue. Scitor is, in my view, scripturally and historically incorrect about infant Baptism and the necessity of it, but that is not evidence that he is either lying or lacking in intelligence.

Jon

You are absolutely correct. I let my emotions get the best of me, and I should not have been so judgemental. I was wrong, and I am sorry.

 

[ckutac]

I asked this before, but will ask again. Did Christ lie when he said to the thief on the cross, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise?” Was the thief baptized? Did the thief go to heaven? Did he first go to purgatory?

Can you not see the many contradictions. In order to answer my question about the thief you will tell me “baptism by desire,” which is completely unsupported.

By saying baptism is required for salvation you are ignoring/contradicting what is stated about salvation in the majority of the new testament.

Did he go to purgatory first, we have no idea. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that everyone will go to purgatory. And it while to my knowledge, it is not infallibly taught, it is at least believed that anyone who is martyred, will go straight to heaven (once again, anyone please correct me if I am wrong on this).

But, we do know that first Jesus did not go straight to heaven himself. He went to preach to the spirits in prison. (1 Peter 3:18-20). Maybe that is where the “good thief” went.

Do you know for certain that the “good thief” never was baptized. While, most certainly assume he wasn’t, we don’t know. But, what we do know, is that Jesus specifically told Nicodemus that you could not enter the kingdom of God, unless you where born from above. And went as far as to say “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”, then goes on to define born again as being born of the water and the spirit.

To use your own words, are you saying that Jesus lied to Nicodemus when he said that “No One”, can enter the kingdom of God, if they are not born of the water and the spirit?

 

[JonNC]

You are absolutely correct. I let my emotions get the best of me, and I should not have been so judgemental. I was wrong, and I am sorry.

Happens to me, too.

His peace,
Jon

 

[SPH1]

I asked this before, but will ask again. Did Christ lie when he said to the thief on the cross, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise?” Was the thief baptized? Did the thief go to heaven? Did he first go to purgatory?

No, the thief did not go to Heaven that day…and neither did Christ. Christ (his soul) descended “into Hell (Hades)”, the realm of the dead. Christ did not ascend to Heaven until after his resurrection.

I believe that the teaching is that during the three “days” of Christ’s death, his body was in the tomb and his soul was in “Hades”…and his divinity remained united to both. Paradise is not the same as Heaven, in my understanding.

While in the realm of the dead Christ preached and brought full salvation to many there. No time, but see Hebrews 11:13 where Old Testament saints did not achieve the promise but were waiting. They weren’t in “Heaven” either.

It’s been awhile and I’m a little surprised to see this thread still going strong. Scitor, you should leave the man-made SBC and become a member of Christ’s Church…the Holy Catholic Church.

 

[Scitor]

No, the thief did not go to Heaven that day…and neither did Christ. Christ (his soul) descended “into Hell (Hades)”, the realm of the dead. Christ did not ascend to Heaven until after his resurrection.

I believe that the teaching is that during the three “days” of Christ’s death, his body was in the tomb and his soul was in “Hades”…and his divinity remained united to both. Paradise is not the same as Heaven, in my understanding.

While in the realm of the dead Christ preached and brought full salvation to many there. No time, but see Hebrews 11:13 where Old Testament saints did not achieve the promise but were waiting. They weren’t in “Heaven” either.

No disagreement here

It’s been awhile and I’m a little surprised to see this thread still going strong. Scitor, you should leave the man-made SBC and become a member of Christ’s Church…the Holy Catholic Church.

Oh…but I am a member of the Holy Catholic Church…just not the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Scitor:

Oh…but I am a member of the Holy Catholic Church…just not the Roman Catholic Church.

And conversely, we are all members of the Baptist Church, just not any on planet earth.

BTW, if a stranger asks for directions to the nearest Catholic Church, you would direct them to a Baptist church?

Securus judicat orbis terrarum!

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Oh…but I am a member of the Holy Catholic Church…just not the Roman Catholic Church.

GREAT!

So, which did you join:

Alexandrian Church, the Antiochian Church, the Armenian Church, the Chaldean Church, or the Byzantine Church?

Apart from the Latin (“Roman”) Catholic Church, those are the only ones actually holding Apostolic Succession.

 

[ckutac]

Oh…but I am a member of the Holy Catholic Church…just not the Roman Catholic Church.

Wonderful, we are go glad that you have joined the Catholic Church, and are now in communion with Rome.

By saying baptism is required for salvation you are ignoring/contradicting what is stated about salvation in the majority of the new testament.

You do realize that you are ignoring/contradicting Jesus’s own words, when you try and figure out a way to make baptism not required for salvation?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

 

[SPH1]

Yes, baptism (of some form) is necessary for salvation.

Look at Hebrews 11. The OT saints had faith, yet were not in Heaven.* Hebrews 11:13; 11:39-40. Even though they were “approved because of their faith, they did not obtain what had been promised.” Heb 11:39. Faith itself was not enough.

I think that the OT saints in “paradise” had already “accepted Christ” by their faith long ago…or the promise of Christ.

Note that verse 40 states that God had a better plan, which included “us”. I believe that the critical factor was not only Christ’s death (and resurrection) but also being baptised into Christ’s death by baptism…which I think would include the “us” part, or the Church.

Just off the top of my head.

*Probably what’s called Paradise, a king of pre-Christ holding-tank. Not exactly Purgatory, but shows that the concept of Purgatory is sound.

 

[ckutac]

Lets take a look at two versus, and see if we can really put this whole idea that you have to believe to be baptized to rest.

First lets look at 1 Pet. 3:21:
And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for[a] a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Second lets look at Acts 16:31 again:
Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.

If baptism now saves you. Then to be saved, would mean to be baptized. Lets try rereading the story of the jailer again, but switching out saved with baptized.:
“Sirs, what must I do to be baptized?” 31 They answered, “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be baptized, you and your household.”

Notice, that the only requirement for his entire family to be baptized, was JUST for him to believe.

 

[SPH1]

I’m been thinking on these verses:

Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. Romans 6:3-4

Now, the usual argument is that the thief on the cross and the OT saints waiting in “Paradise” (Heb 11:13, 39-40) were not baptised and therefore baptism is not necessary.

However, since they were buried with Christ in His death during Christ’s three days of death, then I suggest that they all WERE baptised. Actual baptism in it’s purest sense; not some baptism of desire.

They had faith and were accepted, but that was not sufficient to receive the promise. They had to be baptised…buried with Christ.

I am thinking that it is not the thief and OT saints that have to come up to our Baptism. Rather, it may be that our baptism today takes us to their level…being buried with Christ. Baptism puts us in the same position (the grave) as the thief and OT saints during Christ’s 3 days of death.

So until further notice/correction, when confronted I’m going to say that the thief on the cross and OT saints were baptised … fully.