Infant vs. Believer's Baptism

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The bottom line is that we are not members of the Church Universal (on Earth, in Purgatory, and in Heaven) until we are baptized in some manner, whether with water here on earth, or by desire, or by blood, which of course happen at the time of death, but not before.

There is no living person who is, at the same time, both unbaptized and a member of the Church that Christ founded.

Yes, they may be members of the Catechumenate, or less formally, they may be reading the Scriptures and attending some form of worship service and/or Sunday School classes, but the first Initiation Sacrament of the Church is Baptism.

It is by being baptized that we enter into the life of Christ, and become His disciples. Prior to that, yes, we may be learning things about Christ, and even praying to Him, but we are still strangers to Him - until we are baptized, at which point, we become children of God the Father and brothers and sisters of Christ - we become adopted into His spiritual family - that is, His disciples.

Constantine, for example, never attended the Liturgy of the Eucharist at Mass, or received Holy Communion during his life, because he was not baptized until he lay on his death bed. In those days, Catechumens were dismissed after the Liturgy of the Word, and in fact, back then, the Liturgy of the Word was actually referred to as “The Mass of the Catechumens” and the Liturgy of the Eucharist was referred to as “The Mass of the Faithful,” as though there were two distinctly different Masses taking place one right after the other, instead of these Liturgies being two movements of the same Mass.

Today, we no longer make that distinction, although many parishes are returning to the practice of dismissing those Catechumens who are participating in formal studies - but not all of the unbaptized are asked to leave - only those who are participating in the RCIA with a view to becoming Catholics at Easter time. (Which is very confusing to them, especially when they first start, since up until they made the decision to join the RCIA, they were welcome to attend the whole Mass, and now all of a sudden they are being dismissed half way through it. 🤷 )
 
that is exactly what i have been taught also. i agree with you completly. you have explained it better then i did. but we are on the same page for sure.
 
The dismissal at Mass, oddly translated, “The Mass is ended; go in peace” is, in Latin, “Ite, missa est.”

(loosely but more correctly): Go: you are sent.
OK, I hate to be nit-picky, but isn’t it, “Go, It is sent.”?
 
yes he did, go to matthew the baptism of Jesus, chapter 3 remember John didnt want to baptise Jesus. The chapter before you hear John saying he can only baptise with water the one comming is mightier than i. There you are correct but now continue John said i need to be baptised by you. what did Jesus say to John ALLOW IT NOW.FOR THUS IT IS FITTING FOR US, AGAIN THE WORD US. TO FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS. Then he allowed him. Then im sure you know scriptures thats when the Holy Spirit descended into Jesus. That is when The Father Son and now Holy Spirit came into effect. remember allow it now. now also getting back you the question of being a disciple of Jesus
It is not recorded that John baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All Three were present, but that’s different.

And I’m not sure of your wording, here: "That is when The Father Son and now Holy Spirit came into effect." What do you mean by that?
 
That is all well and good. Surely both are ways that people become attached to Jesus. But isn’t it interesting that by such a definition an adult who declares his intention to be a follower of Jesus is not recognized as a disciple while an infant who will have no cognitive recollection of the event is recognized as such. I would suggest that the moment the Cathecumen says that he/she desires to enter that process that they have become students of Jesus and are already disciples. Whether such disicpleship is recognized by the Church isn’t really the issue, Jesus knows them as his and that is the only thing that really matters.
I think both matter. Why would Jesus instruct that the Apostles baptize, if it was not important for the Church to also recongize the disciple? Baptism is a demonstration that the catechumen and the Church have come together in the unity of Christ.
 
It is not recorded that John baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All Three were present, but that’s different.

And I’m not sure of your wording, here: "That is when The Father Son and now Holy Spirit came into effect." What do you mean by that?
okay what i mean is this. first the image of heaven is torn open Heaven stands open above Jesus. His communion of will with the Father his fulillment of righteousness opens heaven which is essentially the place where GOds will is perfectly fulflled. next proclamation of Jesus mission by GOD. (not what JEsus does who is is) Finally in this scene together with the son we encounter the Father and the Holy Spirit. THe mystery of the Trinitarian God is beginning to emerge even though its depts can be fully revealed only when Jesus journey is completed. i guess maybe my words shouldnt have been came into effect i guess i should have said emerge. Trust me this isnt my words im not that smart. And also as being a catholic i am only told to read the bible not translate it. that has to be thru the Holy Spirit. Now after Jesus was baptised that is when it became The Father SOn and Holy spirit thats when he instructed his twelve how to baptise. But as i said only after the Masters own Baptism. But it wasnt revealed until after his death. which im sure you know.
 
okay what i mean is this. first the image of heaven is torn open Heaven stands open above Jesus. His communion of will with the Father his fulillment of righteousness opens heaven which is essentially the place where GOds will is perfectly fulflled. next proclamation of Jesus mission by GOD. (not what JEsus does who is is) Finally in this scene together with the son we encounter the Father and the Holy Spirit. THe mystery of the Trinitarian God is beginning to emerge even though its depts can be fully revealed only when Jesus journey is completed. i guess maybe my words shouldnt have been came into effect i guess i should have said emerge. Trust me this isnt my words im not that smart. And also as being a catholic i am only told to read the bible not translate it. that has to be thru the Holy Spirit. Now after Jesus was baptised that is when it became The Father SOn and Holy spirit thats when he instructed his twelve how to baptise. But as i said only after the Masters own Baptism. But it wasnt revealed until after his death. which im sure you know.
OK, I see what you mean. It’s just, I once made a similar mistake saying that the Holy Spirit is the result of the Love between God the Father and God the Son, as evidenced in Jesus’ willing to die on the Cross out of love for God and His children. My audience took it to mean the Holy Spirit was a result of Jesus’ dying on the Cross. That was not my intention.

On a side note, John the Baptist did NOT baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit during his ministry, because we see in Acts where Paul had to re-baptize those who’d had a baptism of John and had not received the Holy Spirit. Jesus’ baptism, being the foundations of all Baptisms, included the Trinity as you explained so well, but it was the work of the Holy Spirit, not the Form that John used that brought forth the Trinity.
 
OK, I see what you mean. It’s just, I once made a similar mistake saying that the Holy Spirit is the result of the Love between God the Father and God the Son, as evidenced in Jesus’ willing to die on the Cross out of love for God and His children. My audience took it to mean the Holy Spirit was a result of Jesus’ dying on the Cross. That was not my intention.

On a side note, John the Baptist did NOT baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit during his ministry, because we see in Acts where Paul had to re-baptize those who’d had a baptism of John and had not received the Holy Spirit. Jesus’ baptism, being the foundations of all Baptisms, included the Trinity as you explained so well, but it was the work of the Holy Spirit, not the Form that John used that brought forth the Trinity.
yes that is it. Actually John himself didnt actually at that moment know that by the Baptism of Jesus how he actually changed the concept. Only GOD himself knew at the time what was happening. thats why right before now dont quote me word for word but you know what i mean about how John said he could only baptise with water but the one would come. little did he know Jesus was waiting in the line and at that moment it was fulfilled. pretty neat huh
 
okay what i mean is this. first the image of heaven is torn open Heaven stands open above Jesus. His communion of will with the Father his fulillment of righteousness opens heaven which is essentially the place where GOds will is perfectly fulflled. next proclamation of Jesus mission by GOD. (not what JEsus does who is is) Finally in this scene together with the son we encounter the Father and the Holy Spirit. THe mystery of the Trinitarian God is beginning to emerge even though its depts can be fully revealed only when Jesus journey is completed. i guess maybe my words shouldnt have been came into effect i guess i should have said emerge. Trust me this isnt my words im not that smart. And also as being a catholic i am only told to read the bible not translate it. that has to be thru the Holy Spirit. Now after Jesus was baptised that is when it became The Father SOn and Holy spirit thats when he instructed his twelve how to baptise. But as i said only after the Masters own Baptism. But it wasnt revealed until after his death. which im sure you know.
rinnie, I don’t think anyone is saying that we don’t see testimony to the reality and even the presence of the Holy Trinity at Jesus’ baptism. But that is not what you were saying and not what notworthy and mercygate challenged when you said that John [the Baptist] baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity. I don’t think we find the actual words “in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” until later. Even at Pentecost, Peter only tells those who want to know how to be save that they must be baptized “in the name of Jesus Christ”. They are to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, but they are not told they have to be baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity.
 
Yeah. That never made sense to me, which is why it sticks in my mind. “Go, It is sent”. What is sent, BTW?
I would think what is sent is the Church, the people of God who have assembled to hear and proclaiim God’s word amongst one another are sent carrying God’s message to the world.
 
I would think what is sent is the Church, the people of God who have assembled to hear and proclaiim God’s word amongst one another are sent carrying God’s message to the world.
I think you would make a really cool Catholic! 👍
 
rinnie, I don’t think anyone is saying that we don’t see testimony to the reality and even the presence of the Holy Trinity at Jesus’ baptism. But that is not what you were saying and not what notworthy and mercygate challenged when you said that John [the Baptist] baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity. I don’t think we find the actual words “in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” until later. Even at Pentecost, Peter only tells those who want to know how to be save that they must be baptized “in the name of Jesus Christ”. They are to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, but they are not told they have to be baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity.
then why does it say in mt28:19 quote GO THEREFORE AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. unquote the baptism that Jesus disciples have been administering since he spoke those words is an entrance into the Masters own Baptism into the reality that he anticipated by mean of it. That is the way to become a Christian. now if those words are an entrance into the Masters own Baptism. again like i said it wasnt to be revealed at that moment only later.
 
then why does it say in mt28:19 quote GO THEREFORE AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. unquote the baptism that Jesus disciples have been administering since he spoke those words is an entrance into the Masters own Baptism into the reality that he anticipated by mean of it. That is the way to become a Christian. now if those words are an entrance into the Masters own Baptism. again like i said it wasnt to be revealed at that moment only later.
Look again at the time line. This was one of the last things that Jesus said to them before He ascended into Heaven - this was 40 days after the Resurrection - they were not doing Trinitarian baptism prior to the Resurrection: only afterwards, and really only after the Ascension, since it was right before He ascended into Heaven that Jesus commanded them to start doing that.
 
Look again at the time line. This was one of the last things that Jesus said to them before He ascended into Heaven - this was 40 days after the Resurrection - they were not doing Trinitarian baptism prior to the Resurrection: only afterwards, and really only after the Ascension, since it was right before He ascended into Heaven that Jesus commanded them to start doing that.
i agree i said it wasnt revealed until after.
 
I still just like to go with what the simple word “student”. Recall that the word we translate from Matthew (and all the other places it is used) as “disciple” is actually a very common Greek word, “mathetes”. It was used not only by Jesus and the New Testament writers but by many other people in that day. And its meaning is not derived from its usage in the scripture, but rather its meaning in the scriptures is derived from its usage in everyday parlance. (I.e. the biblical writers might give their own emphasis to a word, but they couldn’t change its basic meaning and still have people understand them.)

And the word we are speaking of goes back in usage to Homer and beyond. It ancient Greek it had to do with the process by which one acquires theoretical knowledge. In Socrates’ day a person was considered a “mathetes” (or pupil) only when in the presence of his “didaskalos” (master or teacher). But Socrates never wanted to have any “mathetes” and didn’t consider himself a “didaskalos” because he desired those who learned from him, to learn how to think independently of him as well. Thus it was that those who learned from Greek philosphers became known as "akolouthos (followers) as much as “mathetes” (students).

By the time of the New Testament, the word “mathetes” in its most common secular usage simply means “student”. But I think that in reading the New Testament in context that one can see that the writers goes back and pick up on the concept of a “mathetes” as one who is totally attached to someone as if apprenticing from them how to become like them. This mirrors the relationship between Jewish rabbis and their students.

Now that is obviously a process. One does not become like Jesus just by virtue of being baptized. Rather, in baptism one gets attached to Jesus in both a symbolic and spiritual way, and then grows in grace to become more and more Christ-like.

So, I respectfully disagree that discipleship is as simply as following Christ’s commands or obedience to his word. I think it goes beyond mere behaviors to the spiritual core of an individual. Do we do more than just mimick Christ outwardly, do we actually seek to in some measure ourselves inwardly be transformed into one who carries the image of Christ within his/her own soul. In otherwords, I think that discipleship is ultimately about sanctification and is a life-long process, not a one time happening.

And while you may see that as starting only at the moment of baptism, I see it starting any time a person becomes attached to Jesus – be it through the sacraments or by a simply act of faith and personal commitment. We become students of Jesus and remain so throughout our lifetime. Graduation being our own glorification when we enter into God’s presence in heaven.
**So, how or when does that sanctification, a life-long process, begin? When we “become attached to Jesus”? How do you think that occurs? Through the sacraments? Or through a simple act of faith and personal commitment? Or either/both? When does an infant “become attached to Jesus”?

Also, you or someone said an infant can be a disciple or student. Then what was Jesus referring to when He said to “make disciples” of all nations? Make a baby? If a baby is already a disciple at birth, what do we do? Just start talking to him/her, whether he/she understands anything we say or not?**
 
**

Also, you or someone said an infant can be a disciple or student. Then what was Jesus referring to when He said to “make** disciples” of all nations? Make a baby? If a baby is already a disciple at birth, what do we do? Just start talking to him/her, whether he/she understands anything we say or not?
We make him a disciple by baptizing him. Prior to his baptism, he is a pagan.
 
We make him a disciple by baptizing him. Prior to his baptism, he is a pagan.
**I think Grace Seeker would disagree, but I will let him speak for himself.

So, if an unbaptized baby is a pagan (certainly a nonbeliever), it sounds like you think he is lost and on the road to hell until he is baptized, even though he has not reached the age of reason.

But once he is baptized, say, at 1 day old, he is transformed into a “student” or “learner” or “disciple” and is on the road to heaven, though still a nonbeliever.

And you think that is what the Scriptures teach? Or just your church?**
 
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