Infinite universe?

[freesoulhope]

Infinite universe. If the universe is infinite then it is apart of God. But we know there is good evidence scientifically that is not the case. I have thought about qeustions like these day and night, there is know answer to them and to know, would mean that the “anwser itself” revealed its self to you.

This is all i know… We can all logically assume that every thing comes out of everything going all the way back to the big bang, by following the laws of pysics and scientific observation.

If you cant except these, then any faith is as good as any, cause there is no other way you can know the truth, except if it is revealed to you.Therefore it is illogical that anyone should practice science since that its based on reason and works acordingly. We developed in a way that we can grasp this reason, and be aware of “Existence” and in having this ability we create things out of preexisting meterials that benifit us. This means that the universe follows a certain rationality, therefore it is ordered.

An atheist cannot take away the building blocks of God, with out their augument becoming an irationality. Becuase for there to be building blocks, something has to bring order to them, in order for the human mind to make rational and ordered sense out of it. How do you regognise order, unless you are designed to regonise it?

The universe is a cold black abyss. Theres no reason it should be like that, other then to be defined, to be a definition, to be a contrast to something else, which is heat and light, “stars”.

Lets go back in time to the big bang.

before that, the universe did not exist as we understand it, but the foundation, the potential for it to manifest was always there. Even if you say that it is a “rule” that a univerese becomes manifest, there are still invisible things happening in order for it to be so. There are still rules that apply, and shape the universe and demands that a planet or star be round and not a triangle or a square. Effciency cannot come out of no where, if there is a spark then there is somthing that sparked it. My mum is an atheist, and likes to say the universe came in to existence by forces, but fail to say where those forces came from. They still have to rest on a foundation, which is existence, unless you say that existence is a force? that doesnt make sense acording to science or reason.

even if there are many dimensions before you reach ultimate reality, once you reach ultimate reality, your cant go beyond it, because it is everything, there for there is and was a “process” that lead to the universe existing. for the process to take place it had to follow rules, the same ones that say that a planet should be round.

Reason demands and inteligent being, and it is logical that such a being would create a world based on forces, definitions, tug of wars, and a universe that relies on everything it consists of and forces that existed before its existence. Otherwise there would be no logical reason why anybody would believe in God… because there wouldn’t be anybody to believe. God bless everyone and take care. Glory to the father in heaven.

The truth is God, existence its very self, is God, and im not talking about the balls of fire that we see everywhere.

 

[freesoulhope]

The univerese is not infinite, because stars are born and stars die, this means that there was a time when there where no stars, only the ingredients that make them up. They became stars because those ingredients where brought together to produce them. This means they follow a law which does not create its self, it has to be administered for these things to logically take place. This suggests intelligence beyond the universe.

The abudence of stars, should tell you that there is such thing as pysical law, and that there is a process that when followed, produces a star. That means there are ingredients that come together and work specfically to have one outcome, which is a star. And since stars haven’t been around forever, it is a “new rule”. Why sould something unintellgible decide to start building univerese, and why should any meterial have any particulour affect. This should tell you that metrials have rules to how they should work or react when munipulated or come in to “contact with another existing object”

Even organic meterial, relies on a law so that it will survive, since it does not “know” it should do, or even seek to reproduce, since it doesnt “seek” it follows a code or “law”. Like a computor program, there are certain codes that are written, that you cannot see, that make up the images on your computor. Does any one deny that there are such things as computor programers?

 

[freesoulhope]

Truth is, if you look beyond the veil. There is no reason why anything should work, or that a plant should be Green or that a universe should be ordered, or even have colour, meterial objects are worthless meaningless things untill they are given meaning by a giver. Things are as they are, so a human being can engage with it and feel it, and hear it, and wonder about it. A force is only a force because it works against or for somthing else. Otherwise what reason should it logically exist? A word only has meaning because it is given meaning, other wise it is meaningless. A banna tastes like a banana, because existence, demands that are minds interprets the bannana to tate like a bannana. Otherwise, there is know reason why a banana should taste like a banana. It is programed to do so, there are codes that are written, and even the codes themselfs, needs to be given “meaning” in order that they can mean to, and create a bannana. You cant escape God, we can only ignore him, and lie to are selves.
people fought science was the great hope that would abolish mans need for God. I think you and i can agree, that ant happening.

 

[JimG]

It is at least theoretically possible that the universe could be “flat” and spatially infinite.

Concerning the shape of the universe as a whole there are three possibilities: space as a whole could be flat, negatively curved, or positively curved.

If it is flat or negatively curved, it would be spatially indefinite in extent, stretching into infinity in all directions. Positive curvature would tend to form the universe into a spherical shape, the ‘surface’ of which would be the normal three dimensions we experience. In such a universe, one could set out in any direction in a straight line, and eventually return to the starting point, much like circumnavigating a globe.

There is at least one physical argument that I am aware of against a flat, spatially infinite universe, and it rests on the assumption that the universe is homogenous—i.e. that galaxies are evenly distributed throughout all of space. In such a universe, both the night sky and the day sky of our planet would be a blaze of light, resulting from the light emitted from an infinite number and depth of galaxies. Even though the light emitted from distant stars and galaxies might be infinitesimally dim, yet the fact that there would be an infinite number of them would add up to an always bright sky.

But I’m no physicist or cosmologist. Cosmological theories change, but the big bang does seem to be the standard model. If the universe indeed “began” at the bang, then time and space began with it, so it would be meaningless to speak of anything “before” the big bang, as no time existed at that point.

 

[freesoulhope]

JimG:

It is at least theoretically possible that the universe could be “flat” and spatially infinite.

If the universe indeed “began” at the bang, then time and space began with it, so it would be meaningless to speak of anything “before” the big bang, as no time existed at that point.[/FONT[/COLOR]]

You assume this becuase, you believe it?. You say there was a big bang, and that time and space began with it?.

I can only say scientifically that there was a big bang, but i “believe” that time as we understand it, began with the big bang.

But for there to be finite time, there has to be a foundation of infinite time. logic reason, and reality demads it. God lives out side of time as we understand it. Existence stretches on forever, and encompasis everything and is Everything. God is not bound by time because ( i believe) he is time itself. He would have to be otherwise he would be subject to it, he would be a servent to time, like us. So there was, is, and will ever shall be time, ifinite time, God.

 

[JimG]

freesoulhope:

But for there to be finite time, there has to be a foundation of infinite time.

I think I agree with most of what you said, but I’m not sure about this part. I don’t think that finite time requires a foundation of infinite time; rather it requires a foundation of eternity.

Time is a measure of change; whether it consists of a finite series or an infinite series. “Before” the big bang, if nothing existed, there was no change, and no measure of change.

But God is eternal. He does not change. He exists in eternity, in which there is no past and no future, but only “now.” Eternity doesn’t consist of an infinite series of events.

 

[freesoulhope]

JimG:

I think I agree with most of what you said, but I’m not sure about this part. I don’t think that finite time requires a foundation of infinite time; rather it requires a foundation of eternity.

Time is a measure of change; whether it consists of a finite series or an infinite series. “Before” the big bang, if nothing existed, there was no change, and no measure of change.

But God is eternal. He does not change. He exists in eternity, in which there is no past and no future, but only “now.” Eternity doesn’t consist of an infinite series of events.

This suggests that God is frozen in a moment and that he doesnt move or act. The fact that he doesnt change, i dont think represents that he doesnt act, . He essense doesnt change, he stretches out across all eternity, he is time. What do you think eternity is, if its not forever? to see it from his point of veiw, is impossible, because we where created to exist in time, we have a beginning and an end. God does not experince time, he is the past the the present and the future.

Im not saying that he experiences “time” nor am i suggesting that are time is the same time as eternity, but time is founded on eternal existence and follows a rule based on such an existence.

I do not think, that we will be frozen in a moment forever, rather we will experience God. Experience, I feel this works hand in hand with one moment to the next. Or maybe i simply cannot comprehend eternity.

Theres only three possibilitys, God exists withing time, which is not true.

Or God is time and is infinite, in relation to us and what we experience. And because he is time there is no bounds, this means he does not wait to experience, he know everything and is everything for all eternity. since God cant be frozen in a moment, because a moment exists in time, and so does the “present” and eternity has bounds.

The only other option is that, finite and infinite time its very self is not apart of God, but mearly a creation. And “eternity” is somthing else other then what time is, whether it be infinite or not.

Im believe number two, not because number 3 isnt a possibility, but because my experiences suggest that im created to experince time. God is a unboundless time. the fact that God does not measure time, does not mean we will not experience it in the new world, or that he isnt time itself.

 

[Tallyhoe]

Since people werent here 5 BILLION years ago when the earth first began devoloping life… we will never know. Man cannot, and i stress this hugely, begin to comprehend that amount of time. That is impossible. God is here because man cannot comprehend that amount of time. So how do we answer questions we don’t know? Especially when it comes to the origin of man. That god put us here. Answer me this and think really hard. Can you make some one (and i don’t mean concieving a child) i mean make some one appear out of thin air. If we cannot do it, then neither can god. Because to have stuff and people and living creatures just appear is physically impossible.

 

[Tallyhoe]

Bene86:

The only reason you exist is because something before you existed, namely your parents. All the way back to Adam and Eve, something must have given them existance because unless something is eternal, aka God, it owes its existance to something else.

The universe is a material object that owes its existance to something, either to semething else that was material or something that doesn’t rely on something for its existance. THe only thing I can think of that has this quality is God.

Hope this helps
Bene

OK. What you say about something existing before you and saying it goes back to adam and eve. It goes way beyond that. Adam and Eve were not the first people on earth. Every thing is here because it devolped. Everything has a begining even god. Space goes so far beyond our exsistance, people hardly try to imagine the begining of time because that is not possible.

 

[freesoulhope]

Tallyhoe:

Since people werent here 5 BILLION years ago when the earth first began devoloping life… we will never know. Man cannot, and i stress this hugely, begin to comprehend that amount of time. That is impossible. God is here because man cannot comprehend that amount of time. So how do we answer questions we don’t know? Especially when it comes to the origin of man. That god put us here. Answer me this and think really hard. Can you make some one (and i don’t mean concieving a child) i mean make some one appear out of thin air. If we cannot do it, then neither can god. Because to have stuff and people and living creatures just appear is physically impossible.

What your saying suggests that God is bound by laws. Angels apearr out of nothing. Infact there is no such thing as nothing in the sense of saying there is such a thing as nothingness. Things either exist, or they dont. God is unboundless, he is law, he created law, the universe is subject on to God, not the other way round.

The universe follows laws simply because God wanted us to follow those laws. Order, fits perfectly with love. An ordered universe should not suggest to you that God has to follow the laws of the universe. It should tell that he wanted you to live in an ordered universe and to understand order, and also to know that everything needs a foundation to stand.

The universe is designed to point towards a designer. It should only tell you that it was his will that we experience it in that way. Laws are written. They are not the rule.

 

[freesoulhope]

Tallyhoe:

OK. What you say about something existing before you and saying it goes back to adam and eve. It goes way beyond that. Adam and Eve were not the first people on earth. Every thing is here because it devolped. Everything has a begining even god. Space goes so far beyond our exsistance, people hardly try to imagine the begining of time because that is not possible.

That is false.

God is forever and was not born or began. he is eternity. If God began, then he ows his existence to sombody else. Therefore he is not “Existence” if he is bound by law. He is the beginning and the end only as far as are existence is concerned. Before that, there was only existence (God). God does not live in existence, and everything that is in existence ows its existence to the foundation of reality. There is nothing else. There is only God, and the things he creates.

 

[Tallyhoe]

God is law, he created law,
The universe follows laws simply because God wanted us to follow those laws.

How can u say god created law? MAN CREATED LAW. OTHER THAN THE LAWS OF PHYSICS. How can the universe follow gods law since the universe does not have a mind of its own.
Also, how do we know what god wants?

 

[Tallyhoe]

There is only God, and the things he creates.

Nothing is here just because, EVEN GOD.
God doesnot create things. Living things create other living things

 

[freesoulhope]

Tallyhoe:

God is law, he created law,
The universe follows laws simply because God wanted us to follow those laws.

How can u say god created law? MAN CREATED LAW. OTHER THAN THE LAWS OF PHYSICS. How can the universe follow gods law since the universe does not have a mind of its own.
Also, how do we know what god wants?

When i say the universe follows laws, i mean they are bound by the laws Of existence(God). meaning you are not going to see a pink elephant pop in to reality out of nothing unless “God” (ultimate reality) wills it, so that the universe works acording to those laws.

 

[Tallyhoe]

freesoulhope:

When i say the universe follows laws, i mean they are bound by the laws Of existence(God). meaning you are not going to see a pink elephant pop in to reality out of nothing unless “God” (ultimate reality) wills it, so that the universe works acording to those laws.

WHAT EVER! any thing else to say, email me i have better things to do

 

[freesoulhope]

Tallyhoe:

There is only God, and the things he creates.

Nothing is here just because, EVEN GOD.
God doesnot create things. Living things create other living things

Every thing that “exists”, sits on a “ultimate foundation” and procedes from it. You ow your existence to that foundation. The foundation answer to nobody because nothing can exist or be real unless it is founded upon the foundation of what we percieve as reality. Is that simple enough for you?

 

[freesoulhope]

Tallyhoe:

WHAT EVER! any thing else to say, email me i have better things to do

There is nothing better to do, Other then excepting God.

And valuing your existence, and giving thanks that you exist. God bless.

 

[freesoulhope]

Tallyhoe:

Since people werent here 5 BILLION years ago when the earth first began devoloping life… we will never know. Man cannot, and i stress this hugely, begin to comprehend that amount of time. That is impossible. God is here because man cannot comprehend that amount of time. So how do we answer questions we don’t know? Especially when it comes to the origin of man. That god put us here. Answer me this and think really hard. Can you make some one (and i don’t mean concieving a child) i mean make some one appear out of thin air. If we cannot do it, then neither can god. Because to have stuff and people and living creatures just appear is physically impossible.

You say that, " how can man answer questions that we dont know? but then you speak as if you Know what your talking about How can you even hope to begin anwsering qeustions When you have already stated that they cant be answered?

Things dont just appear, because they are not designed to, they follow the law of design.

You say its Pysically impossible, but nothing is impossible with God. And just incase you say there is no God, remember what you said…" To have stuff and people and living creatures just appear out of thin air is pysically impossible!" That is correct, Pysical things by them selfs cannot just appear.

 

[JimG]

freesoulhope:

The only other option is that, finite and infinite time its very self is not a part of God, but mearly a creation. And “eternity” is somthing else other then what time is, whether it be infinite or not.

Yes, and this is the correct option.

I cannot agree that time IS God, because God is not material, and time is material. Time–more correctly, space-time–is part of the physical universe. God is outside the physical universe and outside of time. Time IS a created thing.

God is not frozen into a single moment. In speaking of moments, you are thinking of time, not eternity. God experiences your past as “now.” God experiences your future as “now.”

As humans with bodies, we experience our existence in a series of moments, like movie film going through a projector. God experience all of his existence (and all of our existence) as a unity.

We have nostalgia for the past, because it is remembered but no longer present. God has no nostalgia for the past, because it is present to him, as is the future.

This doesn’t mean God doesn’t act. God always and everywhere acts.

 

[Tallyhoe]

Time IS a created thing? That is the dumbest thing i ever heard. Nobody created time not even god. Take away every thing and time is still here. The only thing created with time is how to keep track of time. That is what you were thinking.