Infinite universe?

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JimG:
I God has no nostalgia for the past, because it is present to him, as is the future.
Yes because he is time, therefore he stretches with it on to eternity, forever. Time is not material. If we had no night or day or clocks, or deaf, or growing old, we would live for ever, in God and would not know of the concept of time.

To be eternal, means not to be mesured by time, only because it has no meaning. Or you could be Eternal in the sense of God who is already in the future, and we are in the past to him. But he is also present and he is also the past. He lives forever in all directions, he forever present, he eperiences all at once, yet he is eternal with no end. This is how i see it, in the sense of reason.
 
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Tallyhoe:
Can you make some one (and i don’t mean concieving a child) i mean make some one appear out of thin air. If we cannot do it, then neither can god. Because to have stuff and people and living creatures just appear is physically impossible.
Actually, making stuff appear out of thin air (or more correctly, out of nothing) is the definition of creation, and only God can do it. Naturally, it is physically impossible; that’s why divine creation was required in order for there to be something.

For a good discussion of all these areas, I would recommend this book.
 
This is true, but nothing doesn’t neserceraly mean NOTHING. Rather that, what is now, did not exist to begin with. Would you not Agree?
 
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JimG:
Actually, making stuff appear out of thin air (or more correctly, out of nothing) is the definition of creation, and only God can do it. Naturally, it is physically impossible; that’s why divine creation was required in order for there to be something.

For a good discussion of all these areas, I would recommend this book.
Thanks for the link.
 
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freesoulhope:
Time is not material. If we had no night or day or clocks, or deaf, or growing old, we would live for ever, in God and would not know of the concept of time.
It appears you are disagreeing not only with me theologically (in saying that God is time,) but with modern physics, which considers time an essential aspect of physical reality. Space and time are not considered to be entirely separate entities. Rather they are united. But God is not physical in any way. Because He is pure Spirit, he has no extension in space and no extension in time. But he did create them, along with matter and energy.
 
Just becuase time is essential to the universe, doesnt mean that it began with it ( finite time as we experience began with the univerese ).

If you had no beginning, the only way that could be possible, is that you are time its self. Therefore like you say, God experiences the past, present, and future at the same “time”
Time is not only apart of are Pysical universe, it is apart of existence its very self. God creates things out of himself. The human language probebly lacks the concepts neccerary to explain it fully, But i Dont see how time and God can be separate.

We exist withing time, we where designed to. God is out side of time but that doesnt mean that he doesnt expereinece, or that time isnt apart of his being. Its just that he does so all at once, and forever, because his very being encompasis foreverness. Thats how he knows are future, becuase there is never a “moment” that he does not exist or is not present through out eternity.

Us on the other hand, experience time, going from one moment to the next. Are being, are verys selfs, is existing within time, where experiencing, while God has already experienced. We are blind to the future, simply because we are not the future, but God is. I could be wrong however. But i feel my understandimg is reasonable.
 
Before the big bang took place, is It not true that certain ideas were put in to action? that in itself should tell you that there is such a thing as “unboundless time” in which the universe did not exist at one point, and that plans where made before hand, and that time is not a slave to the pysical universe.

Some kind of time has to exist, in order that the universe can come in to existence, just like we need water to lubricate, so as to keep us from drying up.

When The big bang occured, time began, in the sense of how we experience it, we do not experience it like god. Where as before the Big bang there was only eternity (god). Eternity didnt begin with the creation of the universe. God did not start thinking at that point, he has been thinking since forever. I find it very hard to see otherwise, because i believe that God is resonable, and gave us reason, so i choose to understand him based on that, rather then just agreeing with what past thinkers have thought.
 
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freesoulhope:
God creates things out of himself.
No, because He has no parts of himself out of which to create things. He is not made up of parts. If He could create things out of himself, (using himself as the building material), he would no longer be God at the end of creation, having lost part of himself to creation, and thereby being less than He was before.

God creates out of nothing. Nothing means no thing. No matter, no space or time, nothing.
 
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JimG:
No, because He has no parts of himself out of which to create things. He is not made up of parts. If He could create things out of himself, (using himself as the building material), he would no longer be God at the end of creation, having lost part of himself to creation, and thereby being less than He was before.

God creates out of nothing. Nothing means no thing. No matter, no space or time, nothing.
This is true in a sense. 👍

Im not saying that he is a pysical being. I said he creates things out of himself. His ideas where not created by “nothing”. He created universe out of himself using nothing but his mental will ( or somthing to that affect). As far as i know there was nothing pysical to create the universe out of, so there for everything comes out of God from nothing but himself.

Did i say that he has any parts?

Time is not pysical it is merley reality, and the word time is used by humans to define time, day and night . Pysical things exist within “eternal time”(in the presense of God) but are finite in themselfs. this is what i believe, if im wrong present me with a reasonable theory, so that i can think otherwise. 🙂
 
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JimG:
God creates out of nothing. Nothing means no thing. No matter, no space or time, nothing.
Where, in the scriptures, does it say that God created time?

This is just an opinion based on a scientific idea.

I believe otherwise, because it doesnt make sense to me that Somebody can be forever and “act” with out time, sinse time is the sea, on which an action can occur, like creating the universe. time had to exist beforehand in order for there to be a Pysical big bang. Tell me, did God act before his creation? Yes, he would have to, regardless of whether or not he is a supernatural being. God cannot do his will, and it not be an act. Creation was an act.

What is it that you think eternity is?
 
what is eternity? Forever.

What is forever? an indefinite amount of time.

What would God need to be, to live forever for an idefinite amount of time? he would have to be eternal time, never ending.

End of story. 👋
 
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freesoulhope:
what is eternity? Forever.

What is forever? an indefinite amount of time.

What would God need to be, to live forever for an idefinite amount of time? he would have to be eternal time, never ending.

End of story. 👋
Well, if eternity is just an infinite stretch of time, I think we will get bored in heaven. God himself would get bored.

It is possible to think of eternity as either infinite time or as atemporality–existence ouside of time. Traditional Catholic theology has held that God is eternal in the second sense.

Here is a link to an article by Mark Brumley which discusses both views.

As to creation, God starts with no pre-existing material (where would it have come from?) and has no ‘material’ in his own nature to use. It is true that he creates by an act of will. By an act of will, he causes that which was not, to be.
 
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JimG:
Well, if eternity is just an infinite stretch of time, I think we will get bored in heaven. God himself would get bored.
This writting above, is an assumption, based on the world we live in. Has God revealed this as the truth? or is that human speculation. I agree, if we lived for ever as sinners, then life would be boring. Eternity in hell would be an excruciating, frustrating ,boring and painfull existence, and living “forever” in it, is the most soul destroying revelation of it.

living forever in love happiness and joy, would not be boring, nither does God find it boring, because eternity is apart of his nature, and God is love and Joy, and is happy in himself.

Unless the church says that i must profess as a matter of “faith” that time is not apart of God but is created, then i believe your argument to be in error.

However, I think that we might be both right.
 
JMJ + OBT​

Good afternoon! This is a neat thread; many thanks to jaygerbs for getting it started.

From childhood I’ve had an interest in physical cosmology and in related philosophical inquiry – I think this has a lot to do with my Dad who has always been fascinated by such subjects as well.

I remember reading Stephen Hawking’s A Brief History of Time when I was in the 5th grade (same year I read the Rings trilogy 🙂 ); of course, I understood it a bit better when I read it again in high school. Later in life, as my study of mathematics had progressed, I was able to tackle more advanced treatments of such ideas. And I’ve kept up with other popular treatments as well, such as Greene’s The Elegant Universe. I never ascended to graduate studies, though, and can’t and won’t claim to have a deep understanding of modern theoretical physics, as say a postdoctoral researcher has.

Last July I made an interesting “discovery” – I got turned on to an alternative approach to physical cosmology called Plasma Cosmology. This also entailed learning about a branch of “PC” which is called the Electric Universe model-concept. Both PC and EU posit a far greater role to electrodynamic phenomena – in terms of plasma physics – in the large scale structure and workings of the physical universe.

Interestingly enough, if the PC and/or EU advocates are correct, the interpretation of observed “cosmological redshift” as an indicator of spatial distance is incorrect (it must be understood as something else, something intrinsic to the redshifted bodies, perhaps indicative of their age). If this understanding is coupled with PC’s explanation of the so-called Cosmic Microwave Background as a “local” plasma physics phenonmena (that is, local to the local galactic supercluster), then support for the idea that the universe is expanding and originated in finite real time “at” a space-time singularity is completely undercut.

What picture do PC and EU paint then as far as the spatial and temporal extent of the universe? In a nutshell, they suggest that the universe has a fractal structure of quasi-infinite extent in space and time. The “quasi” part owing to the notion that empirically one cannot prove something to be infinite; yet if the PC/EU model is correct, then through empirical methods one would likely never be able to dectect an “edge,” in space or time, of the cosmos.

I encourage you to look at the article in the Wikipedia (link given above); and look at the “discussion page” for the article to see an interesting, sometimes fierce, debate between the advocates and critics of the ideas presented, who are also acting as the article’s editors.

Also take a look at the following websites:

Plasma Cosmology .Net
(provides a nice overview of PC and EU)

Thunderbolts.info
(this is an EU advocacy site; see especially the “picture of the day” archive)

The Plasma Universe
(website of respected plasma researcher Dr. Anthony Perrat, of the Los Alimos National Labs; and take a look at his paper, Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity)

The ideas presented on those websites are not a “smokescreen” for Christian creationism or any other such thing. In fact, you many notice some overt anti-Christian or anti-religious sentiment in some of the writings. These ideas genuinely represent an alternative scientific approach to physical cosmology and interpretation of astrophysical data that will, I believe, in the next few decades (sooner?) lead most of the scientific community back to a quasi “steady-state” (PC/EU aren’t steady-state in the traditional sense) empirical model of the universe.

So what then, for us Christians who hold creation “ex nihilo” of the universe in finite time to be a core doctrine of our Faith? I don’t think it poses any problem at all! But explaining why is for another post.

Finally, if indeed the “standard model” of the Big Bang + Inflation + cold dark matter (known as “lambda-CDM”) gets tossed in the dust-bin of scientific theories, I have to wonder how many Catholic minds will be discovered to have wedded their religious beliefs too closely to a physical cosmology which seemed to support them, i.e. “Big Bang == Creation.” How many will be prepared to still hold fast and firm to the Doctrine of Creation even if empirically one can never find evidence of such a moment in the history of the universe?

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA
 
whosebob said:

JMJ + OBT​

Good afternoon! This is a neat thread; many thanks to jaygerbs for getting it started.

From childhood I’ve had an interest in physical cosmology and in related philosophical inquiry – I think this has a lot to do with my Dad who has always been fascinated by such subjects as well.

I remember reading Stephen Hawking’s A Brief History of Time when I was in the 5th grade (same year I read the Rings trilogy 🙂 ); of course, I understood it a bit better when I read it again in high school. Later in life, as my study of mathematics had progressed, I was able to tackle more advanced treatments of such ideas. And I’ve kept up with other popular treatments as well, such as Greene’s The Elegant Universe. I never ascended to graduate studies, though, and can’t and won’t claim to have a deep understanding of modern theoretical physics, as say a postdoctoral researcher has.

Last July I made an interesting “discovery” – I got turned on to an alternative approach to physical cosmology called Plasma Cosmology. This also entailed learning about a branch of “PC” which is called the Electric Universe model-concept. Both PC and EU posit a far greater role to electrodynamic phenomena – in terms of plasma physics – in the large scale structure and workings of the physical universe.

Interestingly enough, if the PC and/or EU advocates are correct, the interpretation of observed “cosmological redshift” as an indicator of spatial distance is incorrect (it must be understood as something else, something intrinsic to the redshifted bodies, perhaps indicative of their age). If this understanding is coupled with PC’s explanation of the so-called Cosmic Microwave Background as a “local” plasma physics phenonmena (that is, local to the local galactic supercluster), then support for the idea that the universe is expanding and originated in finite real time “at” a space-time singularity is completely undercut.

What picture do PC and EU paint then as far as the spatial and temporal extent of the universe? In a nutshell, they suggest that the universe has a fractal structure of quasi-infinite extent in space and time. The “quasi” part owing to the notion that empirically one cannot prove something to be infinite; yet if the PC/EU model is correct, then through empirical methods one would likely never be able to dectect an “edge,” in space or time, of the cosmos.

I encourage you to look at the article in the Wikipedia (link given above); and look at the “discussion page” for the article to see an interesting, sometimes fierce, debate between the advocates and critics of the ideas presented, who are also acting as the article’s editors.

Also take a look at the following websites:

Plasma Cosmology .Net
(provides a nice overview of PC and EU)

Thunderbolts.info
(this is an EU advocacy site; see especially the “picture of the day” archive)

The Plasma Universe
(website of respected plasma researcher Dr. Anthony Perrat, of the Los Alimos National Labs; and take a look at his paper, Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity)

The ideas presented on those websites are not a “smokescreen” for Christian creationism or any other such thing. In fact, you many notice some overt anti-Christian or anti-religious sentiment in some of the writings. These ideas genuinely represent an alternative scientific approach to physical cosmology and interpretation of astrophysical data that will, I believe, in the next few decades (sooner?) lead most of the scientific community back to a quasi “steady-state” (PC/EU aren’t steady-state in the traditional sense) empirical model of the universe.

So what then, for us Christians who hold creation “ex nihilo” of the universe in finite time to be a core doctrine of our Faith? I don’t think it poses any problem at all! But explaining why is for another post.

Finally, if indeed the “standard model” of the Big Bang + Inflation + cold dark matter (known as “lambda-CDM”) gets tossed in the dust-bin of scientific theories, I have to wonder how many Catholic minds will be discovered to have wedded their religious beliefs too closely to a physical cosmology which seemed to support them, i.e. “Big Bang == Creation.”
In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

Thanks for the links 👍
 
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JimG:
Well, if eternity is just an infinite stretch of time, I think we will get bored in heaven. God himself would get bored.

It is possible to think of eternity as either infinite time or as atemporality–existence ouside of time. Traditional Catholic theology has held that God is eternal in the second sense.

Here is a link to an article by Mark Brumley which discusses both views.

As to creation, God starts with no pre-existing material (where would it have come from?) and has no ‘material’ in his own nature to use. It is true that he creates by an act of will. By an act of will, he causes that which was not, to be.
Thanks for the link, its got some okay ideas, but only strengthens me in my theory.

I can agree this, God does not exist in finite time, as in he doesnt experience a succesion of events. He doesnt go from one moment to the other. He lives out side the Finite univerese.

However, this does not mean that we do not or will not experience God in a succesion of moments. Gods mind is streached across eternity, becuase he is infinite time.

Finite Time is an illusion, and is only defined by beginning and end, and one day to another, and the fact that we die. Otherwise we are eternal, but in a different sense to God. His mind is eternity, and experiences “eternally”, rather then expereincing one moment to the next.

It dont believe in timlessnes in the sense of time not existing, and there being a being that can make descisions that would bring the universe, including space and time in to existence, with out the lubricant of time. If this is so, then im trully baffeled and astonished to how this can be so.

But i do believe(in light of reason, rather then belief) in timelesness meaning God being the ruller of time, and not being affected or changed by it, because he is it.

There is no change to foreverness, and to say there is no end, you have to except a sense of time.
 
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Angainor:
If God creates a ray of light, that light will simply travel forever, farther and farther into the emptyness. The finite task of creating a ray of light that will endure forever is complete.

.
No, the light’s lasting an infinite amount of time is not complete. Even if it has the potential to last for an infinite amount of time (like souls in Heaven), it never actually reaches that potential. It never actually becomes infinitely old.

Commencement is not the same thing as completement.
 
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DeFide:
No, the light’s lasting an infinite amount of time is not complete. Even if it has the potential to last for an infinite amount of time (like souls in Heaven), it never actually reaches that potential. It never actually becomes infinitely old.

Commencement is not the same thing as completement.
That makes sense 🙂
 
I like the idea that the entire universe was created a moment ago, and we were also created with memories, so we believe in our personal life histories, however palpably untrue they are.

We can’t even prove that yesterday existed, not even by showing me your electric bill.
 
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Crumpy:
I like the idea that the entire universe was created a moment ago, and we were also created with memories, so we believe in our personal life histories, however palpably untrue they are.

We can’t even prove that yesterday existed, not even by showing me your electric bill.
I personally think that finite time is an illusion, to give a sense of order, and to give man a dependence on time. When time is running out, one has to contemplate the concept of God, and what there going to do with there lives. God is so intelligent.
 
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