Initial Justification

[livecharity]

I believe we are justified by God’s grace which is a free gift and faith is an element of that gift.

Is initial justification by faith or baptism?

Dont we need to beleive or have faith before we get baptised?

 

[twb1621]

I believe we are justified by God’s grace which is a free gift and faith is an element of that gift.

Is initial justification by faith or baptism?

Dont we need to beleive or have faith before we get baptised?

As scripture tells us, Peter ordered the Baptism of those who received the Holy Spirit even though they had already received the Spirit.

Depending on the sins from which a person is to be delivered, there are different kinds of justification. An infant is justified by baptism and the faith of the one who requests or confers the sacrament. Adults are justified for the first time either by 1. personal faith, sorrow for sin and baptism, or 2. by the perfect love of God, which is at least an implicit baptism of desire. Adults who have sinned gravely after being justified can receive justification by sacramental absolution or perfect contrition for their sins. (Etym. Latin justus, just + facere, to make, do: justificatio.)

Catholic Definition.
source; therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl

I hope this helps you.

 

[Lancer]

Initial Justification
I believe we are justified by God’s grace which is a free gift and faith is an element of that gift.

Is initial justification by faith or baptism?

Dont we need to beleive or have faith before we get baptised?

My understanding: Grace…then Faith…then Justification in Baptism

1-God’s prep-graces enable us to hear/respond to his call;
2-God’s grace then calls us to believe in him in his only begotten Son…Jesus…whom God sent as our Savior/who redeemed us by the Paschal Mystery.
3-Our free-willed response = **Faith **(yes to God’s grace = faith);
4-God then justifies us becasue of our response to believe which is our Faith. God justifies us…through (because of) the Blood of Christ (the whole Paschal Mystery)…using the power of the Holy Spirit (the visible action of the Holy Spirit is in baptism…form (words) and matter (water and fire)!

Some official teachings of **CCC. **[always consult/verify CCC]

155 In f****aith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: “**Believing **is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.”

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43[Council of Trent]

166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life…

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. …

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is **expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent… **

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46Cf. Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4]

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed** to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity**…

537 Through Baptism the Christian is sacramentally assimilated to Jesus, who in his own baptism anticipates his death and resurrection. The Christian must enter into this mystery of humble self-abasement and repentance, go down into the water with Jesus in order to rise with him, be reborn of water and the Spirit so as to become the Father’s beloved son in the Son and “walk in newness of life”:238[Rom 6:4]…

1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith.54 But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”

Pax Christi

 

[AmericanJosiah]

I believe we are justified by God’s grace which is a free gift and faith is an element of that gift.

Is initial justification by faith or baptism?

Dont we need to beleive or have faith before we get baptised?

1. That is the Protestant position.
2. As a Lutheran, I would agree with you that faith is “the gift of God” and is wholly God’s act (although the dynamic of our will and His working is largely a mystery we do not explore but simply embrace). We would look to “the Means of Grace” for the instruments for HOW God grants this gift (not that God CANNOT work His gift immediately, it’s just that we believe He typically works mediately - through means - the means of grace). For most of us, Baptism was that means. Thus, from the Lutheran perspective, one need not have faith BEFORE being Baptized.

Just my Protestant perspective there.

.

 

[livecharity]

@ Lancer,
Thank You for your detailed response.

1. Faith is a consequence of grace and hence is a gift from God.
2. Faith is also a response to God’s grace.
3. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of Faith.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. – Ephesians 2:8-9

From the above verse it seems that we have nothing to do with cooperating with God’s grace. How do we explain the above verse? Could you give me some scriptural references to show for this cooperation? I know that cooperation is obvious since we have free will. Since grace and faith are both gifts, it is still possible to refuse gifts for some reason. But as some Protestants claim that God’s grace overwhelms you and you see how good he is and hence would always respond. If this is not true, could you please give me scriptural references?

So is it wrong to say that we are justified by grace?
Since it is possible to reject god’s grace and since God desires all men to be saved and hence will not withhold his grace from anyone. There are some people who reject God’s grace would not be justified by just grace. In other words God offers his grace and faith to them, but they reject it.

@AmericanJosiah,
I believe even Catholics need to have faith before baptism, Adults through their own personal faith and conversion. Infants through the faith of their priest and parents who promise to raise the infant in the faith.
So you believe as a Lutheran that adults receive faith through baptism? Why would anyone get baptized if they did not repent, believe in their need for redemption and believe that Jesus is God and our redeemer?

 

[brb2]

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. – Ephesians 2:8-9

Justification = being made righteous. We are only made righteous, thru grace [free gift] of Christ.

We must exercise faith [verbally pledge] in/to Christ, believing He can & will heal us physically & spiritually. Free grace, is granted [gifted] to those who acknowledge Christ as Lord … and desire & request to be healed of sins.

Water Baptism is the Sacrament to accomplish our justification. Man baptizes with water, while Christ baptizes with Holy Spirit.

The first time we are cleansed by Christ … is our Initial Justification. Salvation requires ones ‘initial’ justification … at a minimum.

 

[livecharity]

@brb2

Free grace, is granted [gifted] to those who acknowledge Christ as Lord … and desire & request to be healed of sins.

So are you saying that grace is given only after faith ??? I thought free grace (gift of God) was essential to have faith in the first place, else we verbally pledge(faith) through our own human wisdom and knowledge.

If we could have faith based on our own human wisdom and understanding and not through God’s grace. Then how does that explain Ephesians 2:8-9 and even Romans 3,4 where we are justified by faith.

Thanks for your reply.

I am just trying to understand. Not questioning anyone’s knowledge or faith here.

 

[brb3]

So are you saying that grace is given only after faith ??? I thought free grace (gift of God) was essential to have faith in the first place, else we verbally pledge(faith) through our own human wisdom and knowledge.

Not questioning anyone’s knowledge or faith here.

Yes. SAVING grace is only given AFTER faith in Christ. Christ presents us to the Father as a new convert. The Father, thru Christ sends the Holy Spirit to the new convert …to seal them by his free gift of grace. It takes the full actions of the Trinity to bring about our initial justifications. When we later look back upon our initial justification … we realize the Holy Spirit was instrumental in drawing us to that first faith in Christ as the Messiah. Grace draws us and later ‘seals’ us a God’s adoption.

Grace is the Alpha & the Omega for us … so to speak. That is why we pray for God’s grace Always. W/O it … we would never be drawn to Christ in the first place.

Always question, and so learn the fuller Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 is one of many scriptures in support of. The Early Christians were DAILY engaged in the study of their newly found Catholic faith. This also helps us grow … and thus persevere to the end.

 

[livecharity]

@brb3,

If you read Lancer’s post, he also would agree with me that God’s grace does come before faith.

Since you put SAVING grace in uppercase, so are you saying that God’s grace (not saving) does work in us before faith and draws us to believe in Jesus Christ and we cooperate with God’s call (Faith).

Saving grace comes to us through baptism?

If saving grace comes to us through baptism, how does it explain Ephesians 2:8-9.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. – Ephesians 2:8-9

It talks about saving grace through faith. And since faith always necessary before baptism, we cannot assume its talking about baptism here.

 

[Nita]

In relation to the OP’s question, it’s important to distinguish between two classifications of grace:

1. **Habitual grace **-- referred to as justifying/sanctifying/deifying grace.
   The “initial justification” (spoken of by the OP) occurs when we receive this grace in our souls. Baptism is the normal means for initially receiving this supernatural life of grace.
   This grace is meant to remain in us permanently - hence the term “habitual”.
2. ** Actual grace/s** – assisting/helping aids which God gives to help us in achieving some good act.
   The grace/s that leads one to desire or seek Baptism would be an “actual” grace.
   Actual graces are temporary.

I will add a couple CCC paragraphs to those given by Lancer.
#1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the *sanctifying or deifying grace *received in Baptism. …

#2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable … Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from* actual graces* which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

 

[brb3]

@brb3,

Saving grace comes to us through baptism? If saving grace comes to us through baptism, how does it explain Ephesians 2:8-9.

It talks about saving grace through faith. And since faith always necessary before baptism, we cannot assume its talking about baptism here.

What is faith ? … If not our wish/desire to be ‘healed’ by Christ, both body and soul…
God gives us the grace to understand we are lost … apart from Cross of Christ. So, we approach Him … desirous of receiving healing and adoption in his Church family.

Look at conversion of Paul – as example. Christ spoke to him, revealing himself to Paul, and Paul was given the grace to build a faith, and desire to be healed [both physically & spiritually]. Next, Christ directed his priest Ananias to ‘anoint’ Paul via ‘laying of hands’ —which conveyed grace & justification to Paul, … enabling restoration of physical sight & spiritual rebirth by Holy Spirit. IMMEDIATELY Paul arose and was BAPTIZED.

Saving faith ALWAYS is associated with water baptism from another & the touch of God’s priests via hands. God always conveys our physical and spiritual healing via his annointed, via his sacraments of Baptism & Confirmation. In Paul’s case he received Baptism & Confirmation on the same day. Does it matter if they are separated by a certain period of time ? No. But, both should occur.

It is not Normative to miss Confirmation. Infant/child Baptisms generally are separated from Confirmation by # of years. Adult Baptism and Confirmation don’t need to be separated in time … as Paul’s situation teaches us.

 

[GreenWhiteBlue]

Dont we need to beleive or have faith before we get baptised?

Have you perhaps not noticed that the Catholic Church baptizes** INFANTS**???

What do infants who are only a few days old believe? Surely you are not suggesting, though, that baptizing an infant is improper, or invalid!

The most complete statement that the Church has made on the subject is the “Decree on Justification” issued by the Council of Trent in 1547. The full text may be found here:
history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

Is initial justification by faith or baptism?

If we are speaking of infants (and it was as infants that most of us came into the Church), the only possible answer is “by baptism”. For adults, as the Council of Trent taught, :
"The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace …

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

Dont we need to beleive or have faith before we get baptised?

No. As noted, infants may be validly baptized.

 

[livecharity]

@Nita,
Thanks for elaborating on the classification of grace. That was helpful.

@b2b3
I totally agree and get what you were trying to say in your last post.

@GreenWhiteBlue,

Yes I am aware that the Catholic Church baptizes infants and I have noticed. I was baptized as one.

In the case of infants, the infant is baptized but is also dependent on the faith of the one who requests or confers the sacrament.

3Some men came, bringing to him a paralytic, carried by four of them. 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus and, after digging through it, lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” - Marl 2:3-5

In the above example, Jesus saw the faith of the men and healed the paralytic.

Let me ask you a question, if a person from a different faith who does not believe Jesus is God and Savior baptizes a child just for the sake of it. Is that a valid baptism?
OR
If an adult is forced to be baptized and the adult has no faith. Is that a valid baptism?

Now onto justification,

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

I totally agree and get this “but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.”

Now that Nita has classified grace, the grace itself of justification u mentioned is that habitual grace or actual grace?

According to the classification it has to be actual grace, since it precedes faith or baptism and in fact leads one to baptism. I totally understand that.

But that actual grace is not saving grace or habitual grace. I hope you agree with me on this.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. – Ephesians 2:8-9

But in the above verses, what is this "by grace that you have been saved" that St. Paul’s talking about? Actual or Habitual?

 

[Nita]

Let me ask you a question, if a person from a different faith who does not believe Jesus is God and Savior baptizes a child just for the sake of it. Is that a valid baptism?

My understanding is that if the person intends to do what the Church intends the baptism would be valid. (For example, a Moslem, knowing what Christians believe about Baptism and how it is to be administered, could baptize a child who had not yet reached the age of reason.) But, the Church never intends to baptize “just for the sake of it”- so that already would seem to negate the validity.
In the example I gave of the Moslem, one could imagine a set of circumstances where a Moslem, in an emergency, where the parents were killed (war,natural disaster, etc.) came across an infant of a Christian friend and knew the parents wanted the child baptized, so he baptized the child. I think that would be a valid baptism, but you’d need to ask a priest to find out for sure.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p342, states the teaching this way: “The validity and efficacy of the Sacrament is independent of the minister’s orthodoxy and state of grace”.

OR
If an adult is forced to be baptized and the adult has no faith. Is that a valid baptism?
In an adult, faith is a prerequisite.

This would not be a valid baptism. Quoting again from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma - “Pope Innocent III declared forced Baptism to be invalid. Denzinger 411.”

 

[Nita]

@
Now that Nita has classified grace, the grace itself of justification u mentioned is that habitual grace or actual grace?

The “grace itself of justification” is habitual grace. It is the presence of the supernatural life of God in our souls that justifies us. Our souls are no long dead in sin, but alive in Christ Jesus. We could never merit something so great no matter what we did; it is a gift/grace.
There is only ONE habitual grace - it is the supernatural life of God that is infused into our soul which sanctifies/justifies/deifies us.

Actual graces are manifold.
And there are many that preceded our reception of this justifying/habitual grace. Eg. One of the most important for many of us here is that God chose to have us be born to Christian parents. That is an absolute gift/grace - we did nothing to merit it. Other examples are manifold; happening to meet a Christian and converse, sudden understanding of a verse, desire to learn more about God, …

 

[Nita]

An addition to my post #14:

CCC#1256 …In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize, by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. …

 

[jericho777]

I believe we are justified by God’s grace which is a free gift and faith is an element of that gift.

Is initial justification by faith or baptism?

Dont we need to beleive or have faith before we get baptised?

You are 100% correct. It’s that simple.

We are justified by faith. We are baptized as a command of our Lord. Baptism is an outward sign of an inner transformation.

Acts 8:26-39. Belief is necessary for baptism.
Remember the theif on the cross was not baptized but was saved.

 

[Philthy]

Justification is not a one time event. Abraham, for example, was justified on several occasions.

Getting into Heaven, however, is a one time event that requires being justified. Getting into Heaven is our ultimate goal - salvation and justification are steps along the way.

Some like to focus on “being saved” or “being justified” as if those events necessitate that you will go to Heaven, but that is simply not the case.

 

[brb3]

Acts 8:26-39. Belief is necessary for baptism.
Remember the theif on the cross was not baptized but was saved.

He had Baptism of Blood my friend. When spear entered Christ’s side … he was sprinkled with Christ’s blood & water.

You say he was too far away to catch the spray ? A holy wind stirred at that moment … and he was Baptized.

 

[jericho777]

He had Baptism of Blood my friend. When spear entered Christ’s side … he was sprinkled with Christ’s blood & water.

You say he was too far away to catch the spray ? A holy wind stirred at that moment … and he was Baptized.

It was not the alleged spray of blood with some type of wind thing that saved but his asking of Christ to save him. With the analogy you are using any one who received blood spray would be baptized.