Initial Justification

[brb3]

It was not the alleged spray of blood with some type of wind thing that saved but his asking of Christ to save him. With the analogy you are using any one who received blood spray would be baptized.

No, I didn’t reject element of faith. I accepted your explanation that the thief FIRST had faith, but thereafter … experienced Baptism by Blood.

 

[jericho777]

No, I didn’t reject element of faith. I accepted your explanation that the thief FIRST had faith, but thereafter … experienced Baptism by Blood.

Is it your belief that a person must be baptized to be saved? Is faith alone not suffecient enough for salvation if a person is unable to be baptized before death?

 

[brb3]

Is it your belief that a person must be baptized to be saved? Is faith alone not suffecient enough for salvation if a person is unable to be baptized before death?

I believe what scriptures teach. My own opinion could be errant. Christ clearly taught that one must be born of water & his Holy Spirit. Paul received both … in quick succession. All the Apostles received BOTH ----- WATER first … and 2-3 years later, Rebirth by H.S.

Where in scripture are we taught we only need Faith … w/o baptism ? As Paul would say … “That is Another Gospel”. Not what he taught J-777 :nope:

 

[Bookcat]

Hello all,

We are saved by Jesus Christ!

We are saved by grace.

We are saved by faith. (one must of course understand Faith here in Paul’s sense)

We are saved by baptism.

It can happen that some have faith and never get to baptism.

It can happen that a person has faith infused for the first time in baptism…

It all depends on from what aspect we look at the question…

In early Church – most converts were older and thus heard the proclamation of the Gospel and had faith (by grace of course)…and then were baptised. some it seems were infants (whole households) and were baptized into the faith of the Church and thus faith was infused into them for the first time at baptism…

today with many children being born into Christian homes …it happens the other way around…most receive the faith at baptism and increase in it as they live more and more in Christ. Some are baptized at an older stage and so likely first have faith from hearing the Gospel. all is via grave. all is by the Holy Spirit…

All is from Jesus Christ and from his death and resurrection!

 

[Bookcat]

Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

 

[jericho777]

I believe what scriptures teach. My own opinion could be errant. Christ clearly taught that one must be born of water & his Holy Spirit. Paul received both … in quick succession. All the Apostles received BOTH ----- WATER first … and 2-3 years later, Rebirth by H.S.

Where in scripture are we taught we only need Faith … w/o baptism ? As Paul would say … “That is Another Gospel”. Not what he taught J-777 :nope:

I agree with you scripture teaches we need to believe and be baptized. But my question was if a person believes and dies before they are baptized are you saying they are lost?

 

[Bookcat]

I agree with you scripture teaches we need to believe and be baptized. But my question was if a person believes and dies before they are baptized are you saying they are lost?

Hello all,

We are saved by Jesus Christ!

We are saved by grace.

We are saved by faith. (one must of course understand Faith here in Paul’s sense)

We are saved by baptism.

It can happen that some have faith and never get to baptism. (and still make it to Heaven)

It can happen that a person has faith infused for the first time in baptism…

It all depends on from what aspect we look at the question…

In early Church – most converts were older and thus heard the proclamation of the Gospel and had faith (by grace of course)…and then were baptised. some it seems were infants (whole households) and were baptized into the faith of the Church and thus faith was infused into them for the first time at baptism…

today with many children being born into Christian homes …it happens the other way around…most receive the faith at baptism and increase in it as they live more and more in Christ. Some are baptized at an older stage and so likely first have faith from hearing the Gospel. all is via grave. all is by the Holy Spirit…

All is from Jesus Christ and from his death and resurrection!

 

[GreenWhiteBlue]

@GreenWhiteBlue,

Yes I am aware that the Catholic Church baptizes infants and I have noticed. I was baptized as one.

In the case of infants, the infant is baptized but is also dependent on the faith of the one who requests or confers the sacrament.

Absolutely and completely untrue.

As noted above, baptism may be licitly, validly, and effecaciously conferred by Jews, Muslims, or complete atheists, so long as they use water, a valid Trinitarian formula, and have teh intent of doing what the church does when it baptizes. For many years, Jewish doctors who worked in Catholic hospitals were taught how to baptize just in case there was no one else there to do it.

Let me ask you a question, if a person from a different faith who does not believe Jesus is God and Savior baptizes a child just for the sake of it. Is that a valid baptism?

As noted above, it certainly can be.

Now that Nita has classified grace, the grace itself of justification u mentioned is that habitual grace or actual grace?

It is most commonly called “sanctifying grace”, which is a form of habitual grace.

According to the classification it has to be actual grace, since it precedes faith or baptism and in fact leads one to baptism. I totally understand that.

Not at all. Actual grace does not work a permanent chage, but only creates a emporary influence on the soul to allow it to perform acts conducive to the soul’s salvation.

But that actual grace is not saving grace or habitual grace.

Indeed it is not, and that is why the grace of baptism is sanctifying grace, and not actual grace.

But in the above verses, what is this "by grace that you have been saved" that St. Paul’s talking about? Actual or Habitual?

It is sanctifying grace, which is habitual grace.

 

[GreenWhiteBlue]

Is it your belief that a person must be baptized to be saved?

Jesus Christ, who is Almighty God and all Truth, said “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born **of water **and Spirit.”

“Born of water” means “baptized”.

I do not question my Lord, but accept what He said.

Is faith alone not suffecient enough for salvation if a person is unable to be baptized before death?

Faith alone is never sufficient for salvation. What is sufficient for salvation is the grace of God. God ordinarily confers His grace throught he sacrament of Baptism. I would not presume to say that God cannot confer His grace in any other way – but I do know that the ordinary way is through baptism. Besides, who is there in the world today “unable” to be baptized before death?

 

[Bookcat]

Faith alone is never sufficient for salvation. What is sufficient for salvation is the grace of God. God ordinarily confers His grace throught he sacrament of Baptism. I would not presume to say that God cannot confer His grace in any other way – but I do know that the ordinary way is through baptism. Besides, who is there in the world today “unable” to be baptized before death?

One who has received the grace of Faith (in Paul’s sense) and does not make it to the baptismal font …can still be found in the Kingdom of Heaven.

but yes ordinarily …even as we see in the pages of the New Testament …Faith was followed by Baptism …and this is the will of God.

 

[Nita]

In addition to sacramental Baptism with water, the Church recognizes 2 other forms of Baptism – namely, Baptism of blood and Baptism of desire:

CCC #1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

CCC #1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

CCC #1260 … Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in adccordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

CCC #1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. …

 

[Nita]

… I would not presume to say that God cannot confer His grace in any other way – but I do know that the ordinary way is through baptism.

The Catechism states this beautifully:

CCC#1257 …Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that ssures entry into eternal beatitude; … * God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. *

There are many in the world today who would not be aware of the Gospel.

 

[Bookcat]

Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

these are great texts on Faith (and St… Paul) from Pope Benedict XVI

 

[livecharity]

Nita,

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p342, states the teaching this way: “The validity and efficacy of the Sacrament is independent of the minister’s orthodoxy and state of grace”.

This I totally understand, baptism relies on the supernatural infusion of grace by God not on the orthodoxy or state of grace of the conferrer. I suppose the Moslem who does baptize a baby in an emergency would be acting on behalf of the parents here or depending on their faith and belief on the power of baptism. If the parents themselves did not have faith in the first place, there was no reason for a Moslem with no faith would baptize a baby to fulfill the wishes of the parents.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10What we are is God’s work. He has created us in Christ Jesus for the good works which he has prepared beforehand, that we should devote ourselves to the. – Ephesians 2:8-10

St Paul says you have been saved through faith. So he is not counting faith as a work (“not by works”). Paul goes on the say in Ephesians that our creation (rebirth) is God’s work. I know baptism is God’s work. I understand from this that when St Paul says not by works he does not include faith or baptism in that, since both are God’s work. Is this right?

Jericho,

I believe that God and his church are 100% correct. I am just trying to understand the truth. I do not believe justification is a single event. That’s the reason why I named this post Initial Justification. The thief had faith and he very well would have wanted to be baptized had he the time to live. Jesus knew his heart and he very well could have had the desire to be baptized or in other words follow all that Jesus commanded (you must be born of water and spirit).

Bookcat,

Thanks for the message you sent me. All that you stated I agree with that 100%. That is what I understood to be in that order. I was just trying to understand all these with respect to scriptures and the church’s definition of grace. Someone posted that you can be baptized without faith. I don’t see how that is possible, for any scenario someone had to have faith. A good example is when kids playing around and they play baptism (I know this is very weird possibility) and they use the formula used by the church. Is that a valid baptism? The reason I am giving these scenarios is that there are people who doubt the supernatural grace of baptism and ask such questions.

GreenWhiteBlue,

Absolutely and completely untrue.

As noted above, baptism may be licitly, validly, and effecaciously conferred by Jews, Muslims, or complete atheists, so long as they use water, a valid Trinitarian formula, and have the intent of doing what the church does when it baptizes. For many years, Jewish doctors who worked in Catholic hospitals were taught how to baptize just in case there was no one else there to do it.

“Have the intent of doing what the church does when it baptizes”. What does the church do when it baptizes, it confers the baptism believing in the infusion of God’s grace in the soul of that individual and the remission of sins through baptism (faith of the church).
Does the Jew, Muslim or atheist confer the baptism with this intent of the Church?
Even if Jewish doctors who worked in Catholic hospitals were taught to do that. They would not be forced to do it. It would be left to their free choice to do it and why would they do it if they did not believe in the power of baptism? I don’t understand this. Maybe I am looking at this from a Christian perspective. But I would only do something of another faith if I believed it to be true, and in that case I would want it for myself. Hence I did have faith even though little!

“In the case of infants, the infant is baptized but is also dependent on the faith of the one who requests or confers the sacrament.”

Is not the conferrer acting on behalf of the church (and the faith of the church).

INSTRUCTION ON INFANT BAPTISM
By the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
Approved by His Holiness Pope John Paul II October 20, 1980
The Church’s Mission
14. The fact that infants cannot yet profess personal faith does not prevent the Church from conferring this sacrament on them, since in reality it is in her own faith that she baptizes them. –

So in the end no matter who is the conferrer, it is still with the faith of the church that the baptism is being conferred no matter what the orthodoxy or state of grace of the conferrer.

Bookcat,

Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/be…081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/be…081126_en.html

Thanks for these. They were wonderful to read. I am glad I started this discussion.

 

[Nita]

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10What we are is God’s work. He has created us in Christ Jesus for the good works which he has prepared beforehand, that we should devote ourselves to the. – Ephesians 2:8-10

Your recap of Paul’s words is misleading when you leave out the words “by grace”. What he says is that we have been saved by grace – through faith. Altho a part of the process, it is not our faith that saves us, it is God’s grace. St. Paul says it very clearly a couple verses earlier: Eph 2:5 “…(by grace you have been saved),”
[In Catholic theology, Sanctifying grace is the **formal cause of our justification; Baptism is referred to as the **instrumental cause **(of our initial justification).]

In an adult convert, faith is a necessary preparation/precondition for the reception of this justifying/sanctifying grace in Baptism.
It is possible to lose the life of grace after receiving it – through mortal sin; through a rejection of one’s faith. A baby receives sanctifying grace in Baptism, but as he reaches the age of reason, faith is necessary in order to retain that grace.

So he is not counting faith as a work (“not by works”). Paul goes on the say in Ephesians that our creation (rebirth) is God’s work. I know baptism is God’s work. I understand from this that when St Paul says not by works he does not include faith or baptism in that, since both are God’s work. Is this right?

It sure would have been nice if St, Paul had included a clear and comprehensive definition of what he meant by “works”!
Faith IS a gift from God, but there is also a cooperation on our part, an act of will to accept Our Lord and His teaching. St. Paul might well have considered this a “work”. But keep in mind it doesn’t change the meaning of any of his words, for he never says that we are saved by our faith – that it is our faith that erases the guilt of sin and restores life to our souls.
I have a feeling if someone approached St. Paul and told him, “I have a strong faith in Jesus. My knowledge of Him, and my will to love and accept Him, have justified me.”, St. Paul would probably accuse that person of claiming to be saved by his own works.

Re Baptism being God’s work. The physical pouring of water, speaking of words, is “work” done by us. God binds grace to this act and again, it is this grace that saves us.

 

[jericho777]

It sure would have been nice if St, Paul had included a clear and comprehensive definition of what he meant by “works”!
Faith IS a gift from God, but there is also a cooperation on our part, an act of will to accept Our Lord and His teaching. St. Paul might well have considered this a “work”. But keep in mind it doesn’t change the meaning of any of his words, for he never says that we are saved by our faith – that it is our faith that erases the guilt of sin and restores life to our souls.
I have a feeling if someone approached St. Paul and told him, “I have a strong faith in Jesus. My knowledge of Him, and my will to love and accept Him, have justified me.”, St. Paul would probably accuse that person of claiming to be saved by his own works.

Re Baptism being God’s work. The physical pouring of water, speaking of words, is “work” done by us. God binds grace to this act and again, it is this grace that saves us.

In Eph 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Our salvation is not of works but we are saved to do good works prepared for us before hand by God. Our good works are to glorify the Father.

 

[brb3]

10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Our salvation is not of works but we are saved to do good works prepared for us before hand by God. Our good works are to glorify the Father.

Correct ! And a belief totally consistent with Catholic Soteriology. Welcome aboard … the NT Ark. Faith gains one ‘gift’ of Initial Justification. Good Works ‘graced’ to us via the Church … keep us inside the Ark.

 

[Nita]

In Eph 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Our salvation is not of works but we are saved to do good works prepared for us before hand by God. Our good works are to glorify the Father.

 

[jericho777]

Correct ! And a belief totally consistent with Catholic Soteriology. Welcome aboard … the NT Ark. Faith gains one ‘gift’ of Initial Justification. Good Works ‘graced’ to us via the Church … keep us inside the Ark.

We are totally justified by faith apart from any works we do.

 

[brb3]

We are totally justified by faith apart from any works we do.

Yes … but, only @ our ‘initial’ justification … our first belief /baptism by water & spirit.

Thereafter, one must live in a secular society … and surely to get stained again from inevitable sin. One can’t be ‘rebaptized’, being born a 3rd time …can they ?

But, each time we make FULL confession … we are totally forgiven by God. We receive ‘additional’ grace from God on these FREQUENT occasions.

Recall Daniel prayed 3 times / day. God justified him on these daily occasions. Abraham also experienced multiple justifications … as described in scriptures.