Initial Justification

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Yes … but, only @ our ‘initial’ justification … our first belief /baptism by water & spirit.

Thereafter, one must live in a secular society … and surely to get stained again from inevitable sin. One can’t be ‘rebaptized’, being born a 3rd time …can they ?

But, each time we make FULL confession … we are totally forgiven by God. We receive ‘additional’ grace from God on these FREQUENT occasions.

Recall Daniel prayed 3 times / day. God justified him on these daily occasions. Abraham also experienced multiple justifications … as described in scriptures.
We must fully confess as you say it is a command of the Lord but we would die before confession we are not lost. We are not saved because of our righteousness it’s Christs imputed righteousness the Father looks at. In Rev the righteous are only before the throne because they are washed by the blood of the Lamb. Not because they were good.
 
We must fully confess as you say it is a command of the Lord but we would die before confession we are not lost. We are not saved because of our righteousness it’s Christs imputed righteousness the Father looks at. In Rev the righteous are only before the throne because they are washed by the blood of the Lamb. Not because they were good.
Presumption is a serious sin. Sorry if you die with mortal sin on your soul without any kind of remorse you will go to hell,:eek:Carlan
 
Presumption is a serious sin. Sorry if you die with mortal sin on your soul without any kind of remorse you will go to hell,:eek:Carlan
I’m not presumptuous I’m resting in what the bible teaches. It’s not about what I’ve done but it’s what Christ has done for me on the cross. We all can never ever be good enough. On ANYBODIES best day they are never good enough to be in the presence of a Holy God. It’s Christ imputed righteousness that qualifies us for His presence. Nothing less.
 
In Rev the righteous are only before the throne because they are washed by the blood of the Lamb. Not because they were good.
They are righteous because they were BOTH, washed & kept pure[holy] by Christ.
Paul’s epistles repeatedly teach us that we must ‘continue in perseverence’ … til the end.

Those who pray 3X’s daily like Daniel & the Apostles … will persevere in BOTH faith & good works. 🙂

And as Nita says … its all about God’s GRACE to us, not by works [like keeping Jewish Laws of circ., dietary, etc].
 
They are righteous because they were BOTH, washed & kept pure[holy] by Christ.
Paul’s epistles repeatedly teach us that we must ‘continue in perseverence’ … til the end.

Those who pray 3X’s daily like Daniel & the Apostles … will persevere in BOTH faith & good works. 🙂

And as Nita says … its all about God’s GRACE to us, not by works [like keeping Jewish Laws of circ., dietary, etc].
Right the perserverance of the saints . That’s the P in TULIP
 
Right the perserverance of the saints . That’s the P in TULIP
Add a CCE … CCE-TULIP. Confirmation, Confession, Eucharist [transubstantiation body & blood]

To best do that … become a Catholic and gain all 7 sacraments. 👍
 
I’m not presumptuous I’m resting in what the bible teaches. It’s not about what I’ve done but it’s what Christ has done for me on the cross. We all can never ever be good enough. On ANYBODIES best day they are never good enough to be in the presence of a Holy God. It’s Christ imputed righteousness that qualifies us for His presence. Nothing less.
Understood! It sounds to me like you are saying keeping the commandments are not a worry. That even if you commit a really serious sin get caught up in some evil doings and die without repentance and forgiveness, You will still see the face of the Father?.:hmmm:Have you read the beatitudes lately, Only the pure in heart shall see the face of God.:yup::)Carlan
 
Understood! It sounds to me like you are saying keeping the commandments are not a worry. That even if you commit a really serious sin get caught up in some evil doings and die without repentance and forgiveness, You will still see the face of the Father?.:hmmm:Have you read the beatitudes lately, Only the pure in heart shall see the face of God.:yup::)Carlan
You misunderstand I’m not justifying any type of sin period. We must repent for our sins. My point is that it is Christ alone who saves and justifies. By His grace the righteous will persevere to the end. On anybodies best day no matter how good they think they did they are still not qualified for heaven apart from Christ’s finished work on the cross.
 
We must fully confess as you say it is a command of the Lord ***but we would die before confession we are not lost. ***We are not saved because of our righteousness it’s Christs imputed righteousness the Father looks at. In Rev the righteous are only before the throne because they are washed by the blood of the Lamb. Not because they were good.
Are you saying here, Jreicho, if you die in unrepented serious, mortal sin you will not be lost? Of course Catholics believe that we are not saved by our own righteousness and that our works alone are not going to save us. Christ’s death on the cross alone redeemed us and our acceptance of that is what saved us. However, our salvation can be lost if we do not do what Christ has commanded of us. That is to say keep his commandments. I grant you that there are living saints in the Church, but most are sinners and we all do hope, with the help of God’s grace, to persevere to the end. As I mentioned in an earlier post presumption can be a very dangerous way to live the Christian life. especially if we have the idea that falling into sin is not going to keep us from eternity in heaven. Lets all pray for the grace of perseverance.:thumbsup:Carlan
 
Are you saying here, Jreicho, if you die in unrepented serious, mortal sin you will not be lost? Of course Catholics believe that we are not saved by our own righteousness and that our works alone are not going to save us. Christ’s death on the cross alone redeemed us and our acceptance of that is what saved us. However, our salvation can be lost if we do not do what Christ has commanded of us. That is to say keep his commandments. I grant you that there are living saints in the Church, but most are sinners and we all do hope, with the help of God’s grace, to persevere to the end. As I mentioned in an earlier post presumption can be a very dangerous way to live the Christian life. especially if we have the idea that falling into sin is not going to keep us from eternity in heaven. Lets all pray for the grace of perseverance.:thumbsup:Carlan
Hi Carlin let me try to break it down.

Christ’s death alone on the cross is enough to save. On the cross He paid in full all our sins not just some. Like Paul says should we continue to sin certainly not. He alone does the saving. The works He has prepared before hand are for His glory and are not toward salvation.

All sin is serious and separates all eternally. It’s only by Christ’s imputed righteousness we can enter His presence.

It is God alone who does the predestining the election and the saving. It is His to do the saving. We are called to enter His rest and live by the faith and grace He gives us. We are called to live holy lives before the Lord.

It’s how we look at salvation is it of us or is it ALL of Him. Like I said earlier no matter how good you maybe it is NEVER good enough to be accepted by God. He is infinitely holy and righteous that’s why Christ alone can save.
 
It’s only by Christ’s imputed righteousness we can enter His presence.
INFUSED is the operative word, ‘imputed’ does not adequately [or accurately] described
the Grace we receive.

Paul and the Apostles taught ‘infused’. Luther spoke errantly of ‘imputed’. A Big difference.
 
INFUSED is the operative word, ‘imputed’ does not adequately [or accurately] described
the Grace we receive.

Paul and the Apostles taught ‘infused’. Luther spoke errantly of ‘imputed’. A Big difference.
In the Douay-Rheims Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. The word does not mean infused.
 
In the Douay-Rheims Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. The word does not mean infused.
I’ll get back to you after the Colts & Saints win … 😃
 
I think Our Lord’s physical healing of the woman with the hemorrhage serves as a good “type” for the Catholic understanding of what occurs when our souls are spiritually healed/justified/saved from sin:

Mark 5:25 And there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for twelve years, … 5:27 **She had heard **the reports about Jesus, **and came **up behind him in the crowd **and touched **his garment. 5:28 For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well.” 5:29 And immediately the hemorrhage ceased; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 5:30 And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone forth from him, immediately turned about in the crowd, and said, “Who touched my garments?” 5:31 And his disciples said to him, “You see the crowd pressing around you, and yet you say, Who touched me?’” 5:32 And he looked around to see who had done it. 5:33 But the woman, knowing what had been done to her, came in fear and trembling and fell down before him, and told him the whole truth. 5:34 And he said to her, “Daughter, **your faith **has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”

FAITH is the same in both the physical healing and in our spiritual healing – it is hearing the message, believing, coming, and doing/touching to Our Lord.

GRACE (sanctifying/justifying) can be compare to the "power that flowed from Our Lord and into the woman – a “power” that truly healed the disease within her. The disease was not just covered over - in other words, there, but no longer paid any attention to. It was gone.

BAPTISM can be compared to the act of the woman touching the hem of Jesus’ garment. The “power” of Our Lord was an invisible reality (just as sanctifying grace is). But God determined to allow a tangible element to serve as the instrument through which this grace would be conveyed to the woman. Likewise, God has determined to let water and words be the tangible instruments through which the power of His supernatural life of grace enters into our souls, healing it of the disease of sin and death.

This account of the miracle even contains an aspect of the debate going on in this thread.
Specifically: *How was the woman healed/saved? *
It was the power that flowed from Jesus that actually physically healed her disease, yet Jesus says “Daughter, your faith has made you well.”
It seems “healing” requires something from both:
  1. Faith on the part of the one seeking healing.
  2. Power from God to actually do the healing.
Faith serves as a necessary “open doorway” that allows God’s healing power to pass through. Absence of faith is like a closed door preventing the penetration of God’s power into our very being. (eg. Mt. 13:58)

I think there may be a major difference in the Catholic understanding versus Protestant understanding, on a couple of points:
  1. “Grace” (specifically, sanctifying/justifying grace). For us it is truly a “power” that enters us, has real effects on our souls,…
    I’m not sure, jericho777, but is it your understanding that justifying grace consists of just a decision on God’s part not to look or see our sins/sinfulness, but to cover us with, or impute to us, the righteousness of Christ – even tho underneath (so to speak) this righteousness of Christ, nothing has entered or been changed in our being, in our soul.
    You uphold TULIP. Am not sure, but does that mean you believe in absolute predestination? that what we choose to do (faith or works) does not affect our eternal destination?
  2. “Saved”. For Catholics, being saved means not only being saved from the punishments of hell, it also means being saved/healed from our sins. The power of God’s grace not only heals us from past sins, but strengthens us to overcome the power of sin in the future – if we cooperate with God’s grace.
    As a Catholic, there wouldn’t be a whole lot of point in getting to heaven if I was still full of envy, lust, greed…(existing in that negative internal state), and was surrounded by others who still were full of it – even if God did “appear not to see it”. That would not be very heavenly!!🙂
 
Do you distinguish between being “justified” and being “saved”? If so, could you give your definitions of both terms?
Thanks.
Salvation and justification are received together. We continue to live the christian life by faith in all we do. Faith is the engine of justification. By faith we do the works that were prepared before hand by God that He maybe glorified in them. Our works done by faith never justify us they are the proof we are justified and have faith.
 
I think there may be a major difference in the Catholic understanding versus Protestant understanding, on a couple of points:
  1. “Grace” (specifically, sanctifying/justifying grace). For us it is truly a “power” that enters us, has real effects on our souls,…
    I’m not sure, jericho777, but is it your understanding that justifying grace consists of just a decision on God’s part not to look or see our sins/sinfulness, but to cover us with, or impute to us, the righteousness of Christ – even tho underneath (so to speak) this righteousness of Christ, nothing has entered or been changed in our being, in our soul.
    You uphold TULIP. Am not sure, but does that mean you believe in absolute predestination? that what we choose to do (faith or works) does not affect our eternal destination?
  2. “Saved”. For Catholics, being saved means not only being saved from the punishments of hell, it also means being saved/healed from our sins. The power of God’s grace not only heals us from past sins, but strengthens us to overcome the power of sin in the future – if we cooperate with God’s grace.
    As a Catholic, there wouldn’t be a whole lot of point in getting to heaven if I was still full of envy, lust, greed…(existing in that negative internal state), and was surrounded by others who still were full of it – even if God did “appear not to see it”. That would not be very heavenly!!🙂
Grace is truly the power of God entering the individual believer.

God is the only one who can initiate salvation. We are dead in our sin and trespasses. I believe scripture teaches God imputes Christ’s righteousness on us.

Rev 7:14 "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 22:14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

It is clear Christ’s blood covers believers. We can not be in the presence of a Holy God by our merit. We are counted as righteous by Christ’s blood.

God has to initiate salvation because we are unable to seek Him on our own. We were predestined before the foundation of the world.

Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

You said ““Saved”. For Catholics, being saved means not only being saved from the punishments of hell, it also means being saved/healed from our sins. The power of God’s grace not only heals us from past sins, but strengthens us to overcome the power of sin in the future – if we cooperate with God’s grace”

I agree up to the point of cooperating with God’s grace because it is His grace that enables us to live for Him. Remember we are a new creation in Christ we are a "new man

"Romans 9 is a good place to see God’s sovereign grace and election.
 
Grace is truly the power of God entering the individual believer.

God is the only one who can initiate salvation. We are dead in our sin and trespasses. I believe scripture teaches God imputes Christ’s righteousness on us.
We believe it is more than just an imputation that remains external to us; we are actually made righteous.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
 
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