Initial Justification

[brb3]

scripture teaches God imputes Christ’s righteousness on us.

Rev 7:14 "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 22:14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

You say ‘on us’ … and cite the two scrips in Rev, to indicated an external washing.
True enuf that we are washed externally in water via Baptism, but Christ teaches it takes two Baptisms. One of water (external washing by man) …and another washing internally by Christ’s Spirit.
Christ does more than wash our exteriors, imputing a ‘cloak’ of righteousness on our surface. He also ‘infuses’ righteousness into our heart/souls … via H.S.

Both processes occur at our ‘initial’ justification, but the main action is by infusion. We are cleansed from the inside out.

Scriptures to support :

Matt 23: 25-28 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity. You blind Pharisee! first cleanse the inside of the cup and of the plate, that the OUTSIDE ALSO may be clean. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which OUTWARDLY APPEAR beautiful, but within they are full of dead mens’s bones and all uncleanness.”

John 4:13-14 Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water [H20] will thirst again, but whoever DRINKS OF THE WATER THAT I SHALL GIVE HIM Holy Spirit baptism] will NEVER THIRST …”

John 6:54-58 " he who EATS MY FLESH AND DRINKS MY BLOOD HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and I will raise him up at the last day. For MY FLESH is FOOD INDEED, and MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED. He who EATS MY FLESH AND DRINKS MY BLOOD Eucharist] abides in me, AND I IN HIM. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he WHO EATS ME WILL LIVE because of ME. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the father ate and died; he who EATS THIS BREAD [Eucharist] will live for ever."

Thus, the True Church of Christ will always have Baptism, Holy Spirit Rebirth [Confirmation] & Eucharist. Does your’s have all 3 ?

 

[Bookcat]

In Eph 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Our salvation is not of works but we are saved to do good works prepared for us before hand by God. Our good works are to glorify the Father.

Hello,

i highly recommend these little snippets from Pope Benedict XVI on the subject of Paul and Faith…the one follows the other…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

 

[Carlan]

We believe it is more than just an imputation that remains external to us; we are actually made righteous.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Hello Nita, my post is also in reference to Brb3 #53. sorry about the length of it. Carlan

Fundamental Protestant dogma as can be shown in two major historical Protestant theological documents:

1. Accordingly, we believe, teach, and confess that our righteousness before God is (this very thing), that God forgives us our sins out of pure grace, without any work, merit, or worthiness of ours preceding, present, or following, that He presents and imputes to us the righteousness of Christ’s obedience, on account of which righteousness we are received into grace by God, and regarded as righteous.
   …
   …
2. Therefore we reject and condemn all the following errors: … …
3. That in the sayings of the prophets and apostles where the righteousness of faith is spoken of the words justify and to be justified are not to signify declaring or being declared free from sins, and obtaining the forgiveness of sins, but actually being made righteous before God, because of love infused by the Holy Ghost, virtues, and the works following them. [3]

1. Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.
2. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love. [4]

The first quote is from a major Lutheran document. The first part of the quote clearly affirms what we read in Calvin’s own words, the “righteousness of Christ” is “imputed” to the sinner. Equally important is the second half of the quote. Though it might be hard to read due it the way it is worded, the Lutherans are saying that the term “justify” and “to be justified” does signify a being declared free from sins. What the Lutherans condemn here is a usage of “justify” that means "being made righteous before God.” The second quote is from a major Reformed/”Calvinist” document. In the first half another important term appears, ‘infusing’, and notes justification is "not by infusing righteousness.” Infusing essentially means to put righteousness (also called infused grace) into the soul so that the soul becomes actually righteous. Infusion is to be seen in direct contrast with imputing the “Righteousness of Christ.” The quote goes onto make clear it is imputation which is the grounds of justification, with faith being the “instrument” by which this imputation is received. It is received by faith alone because logically nothing else should or could be needed to lay hold of “Christ’s Righteousness.”

Carlan.

(to be continued.)​

catholicdefence.googlepages.com/article.htm​

 

[Carlan]

Continuation.

What you have read above is classical Protestant dogma. As a quick recap this is the Protestant teaching in a nutshell: Justification comes about by the imputation of Christ’s Righteousness to the sinner’s account (though the sinner’s actual account is actually unrighteous), and God declaring sinner to be righteous based on this imputation only, this imputation is received by faith alone. As you have already probably guessed the ideas which the Protestant quotes above condemned are the very ideas which the Catholic Church considers essential and orthodox. Most notably that justification is by infused righteousness, and not on the “righteousness of Christ” basis of Christ taking your punishment and perfectly fulfilling God’s commandments in your place.

Here is how the Catholic Church defines justification in its essence from the Concil of Trent

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious [unrighteous] is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam,

Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the

Kingdom of God.

… …Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins,

to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that

the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema [excommunicated]. [5]

Justification for Catholicism is first and foremost about going from the state of “the first Adam” in which we lack sanctifying grace in

our souls, to having that grace put back in our souls resulting in true inner righteousness and adoption as sons of God. This is in direct

and irreconcilable contrast to the Protestant view of imputation. It is the difference between being truly righteous (“just”) in God’s eyes

and merely appearing or accounted as righteous in God’s eyes though not being so inwardly.

The issue of infused grace versus imputed grace is truly the decisive issue, and the Council of Trent realized this and laid down clear definitions for Christians to adhere to.

Carlan

to be continued.​

catholicdefence.googlepages.com/article.htm

 

[Carlan]

Final.

Protestants also believe sanctification inevitably does occur in the Christian’s life, however they believe it begins after justification by imputed righteousness by faith alone has taken place.
This sanctification is seen as a lifelong process of having your soul purified through the infusion of grace. It is very important not to misrepresent Protestantism in this regard, it is easy to overlook the fact they believe sanctification does take place.

The problem however is that Protestantism has severed the link between sanctification and justification such that they have justification by imputation of an external righteousness, and that is unacceptable both Biblically and morally.

The protestant view of Original Sin is not one in which sanctifying grace is lost and needs to be restored, but rather the corruption of the human nature in which man’s soul is like a “contaminated spring” which cannot produce pure water and is unsightly to God.

With this in mind you can kind of understand why the Protestants believe in the imputation model, the “contaminated spring” must be overlooked, bypassed, covered, etc, or else God will never be able to see you as “righteous” and save you.

The Catholic infusion model makes sense in that the undoing of Adam’s sin is restoring to the soul the sanctifying grace, in which the soul is “incomplete” without, and which God looks at to see who His adopted children are.

Next fits in the views on the Atonement where for the Protestants using the imputation model need Christ to do for the corrupt man what he cant ever do,

While the Catholic infusion model needs Christ to open the floodgates of grace to flow back into our souls to enable us to do what God requires of us.

Finally it is important to realize that when a Protestant uses the term “Justification by faith alone” it more accurately means "Justification by imputation of grace by faith alone,”

Where as Catholics teach it is by infusion of grace. Again this is NOT essentially a matter of “faith” for Protestants versus “works” for Catholics, but rather what justification means to each side.

God Bless us all.

Carlan

catholicdefence.googlepages.com/article.htm

 

[Nita]

Thanks Carlan. You explained it well.

Carlan
Protestants also believe sanctification inevitably does occur in the Christian’s life, however they believe it begins after justification by imputed righteousness by faith alone has taken place.
This sanctification is seen as a lifelong process of having your soul purified through the infusion of grace. It is very important not to misrepresent Protestantism in this regard, it is easy to overlook the fact they believe sanctification does take place.

I was not aware that they (with the possible exception of Episcopalians) recognized any sort of infusion of grace into our souls. Thanks for clearing that up. Altho I realize it probably doesn’t apply to all denominations.

The problem however is that Protestantism has severed the link between sanctification and justification such that they have justification by imputation of an external righteousness, and that is unacceptable both Biblically and morally.

Thanks especially for this bit; it’s a help in understanding some of the statements made by our Protestant brethren.

 

[jericho777]

Hello,

i highly recommend these little snippets from Pope Benedict XVI on the subject of Paul and Faith…the one follows the other…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

Have you red them for yourself? They sound pretty bible christian to me. There are alot of people here who argue against me when I make the same points.

And he adds “we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law”

For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

 

[Bookcat]

Have you red them for yourself? They sound pretty bible christian to me. There are alot of people here who argue against me when I make the same points.

And he adds “we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law”

For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

Yes …they are excellent. and yes the Catholic Faith biblical. One must understand the various ways that the word Faith is used differently in various places in Sacred Scripture.

Pope Benedict XVI explains what Paul and what the Church in means when the term Faith is used in a Pauline sense. (one also needs to understand what is most of the time meant by Paul when he uses the term law)

Often times over the last few hundred years – Christians have talked past each other due to using terms in differing ways…

which is another reason why more agreements have been worked out in resent years…

the whole text and all his weds. audiences on Paul are very good…i encourage you to read them and the ones he did before them on the Apostles…you can get them in book form…as well as online.

 

[Bookcat]

here are some others you may enjoy…but many more where they came from…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081105_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080903_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080910_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080924_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060906_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060927_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061025_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061122_en.html (there is more on him)

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20070110_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060809_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/youth/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20070127_youth_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

“Happy are you who believe!” (cf. 1 Pet 2:7). Let us turn to Jesus! He alone is the way that leads to eternal happiness, the truth who satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, and the life who brings ever new joy and hope, to us and to our world. Amen."

Pope Benedict XVI Homily Yankee Stadium April 2008

 

[Philthy]

In Eph 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Our salvation is not of works but we are saved to do good works prepared for us before hand by God. Our good works are to glorify the Father.

Hi Jericho!
You are correct - good works have nothing to do with being “saved”. They do, however, play a role in going to Heaven. My guess is you do not understand the difference between being saved and going to Heaven.

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

Have you red them for yourself? They sound pretty bible christian to me. There are alot of people here who argue against me when I make the same points.

It is exceptionally important to be clear in articulating exactly what you mean to say and to require the same of others. It is relatively easy from the Catholic side because the Church has gone to great pains over the almost 2000 years that it has existed to clearly present the Gospel message with ever increasing clarity in response to the many forms of denial and confusion that have occurred over the years.

And he adds “we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law”

For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

To me, Pope Benedict XVl is saying nothing new from the Catholic perspective, but, something distinctly different than the “typical” Protestant perspective. What is the difference? All of the references/expressions related to faith by Benedict are actions - not mere interior dispositions. “Entrusting oneself to Christ” is not merely an attitude - it is an action. It is something that EXISTS INSEPARABLY FROM HOW ONE BEHAVES in every moral situation they face: do I entrust myself to Christ enough to actually do what I know He calls me to do? In the same way, “faith in charity, in love.” is not merely an emotional description. Love in this context, and in the context of the Gospels, is not a reference to mere emotion (eros, philia), but to self-sacrificial action (agape).
It would be very easy for someone who believes “faith alone” to erroneously read Benedicts comments and understand them to mean that he is describing a purely interior disposition if they impose their personal bias onto the terms “love” and “entrusting” and limit them to interior dispositions best expressed as action( *but not necessarily so in order to be saved.) *rather than how Benedict intends them.

Blessings!

 

[jericho777]

Hi Jericho!
You are correct - good works have nothing to do with being “saved”. They do, however, play a role in going to Heaven. My guess is you do not understand the difference between being saved and going to Heaven.

Blessings!

Works are the fruit of our faith. They don’t save us in any way. Rom 4:6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

 

[Philthy]

Works are the fruit of our faith. They don’t save us in any way.

It is true that works can be the fruit of our faith, and I will even agree that they don’t save us in any way. That does not mean however that they are inconsequential to our salvation. Failing to do the good works that God has provided for us to walk in is a rejection of God. Rejecting God will not land you in Heaven. Rejecting God while at the same time pretending - or merely erroneously believing - that we “have faith” in Christ will also not result in going to Heaven. Our works are the means by which we can know that we have true, salvific faith. God does not give anyone faith without simultaneously providing good works for them to walk in. Failing to love(action verb) God and neighbor means you don’t actually have faith regardless of what you may believe.
Such claims as you yours above seems to be a rejection of Christs clear admonition that if we dont forgive others we wont be forgiven by God (Matt 6). If we are not forgiven by God we wont be going to Heaven. Any questions? I have one: is forgiving others something that we do - a work - or not. If not, what is it?

Rom 4:6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Tell you what - why dont you show me a verse that talks about going to Heaven or inheriting eternal life that supports your view. Being saved, being blessed, being credited with righteousness and any other term you wish to discuss are treated separately from actually going to Heaven in Scripture, yet you continue to lump them together. Spending eternity with God is our goal - that is known as Heaven. Unfortunately all the other issues you keep addressing do not deal with this ultimate reality that we must deal with.

Blessings!

 

[jericho777]

It is true that works can be the fruit of our faith, and I will even agree that they don’t save us in any way. That does not mean however that they are inconsequential to our salvation. Failing to do the good works that God has provided for us to walk in is a rejection of God. Rejecting God will not land you in Heaven. Rejecting God while at the same time pretending - or merely erroneously believing - that we “have faith” in Christ will also not result in going to Heaven. Our works are the means by which we can know that we have true, salvific faith. God does not give anyone faith without simultaneously providing good works for them to walk in. Failing to love(action verb) God and neighbor means you don’t actually have faith regardless of what you may believe.
Such claims as you yours above seems to be a rejection of Christs clear admonition that if we dont forgive others we wont be forgiven by God (Matt 6). If we are not forgiven by God we wont be going to Heaven. Any questions? I have one: is forgiving others something that we do - a work - or not. If not, what is it?

Tell you what - why dont you show me a verse that talks about going to Heaven or inheriting eternal life that supports your view. Being saved, being blessed, being credited with righteousness and any other term you wish to discuss are treated separately from actually going to Heaven in Scripture, yet you continue to lump them together. Spending eternity with God is our goal - that is known as Heaven. Unfortunately all the other issues you keep addressing do not deal with this ultimate reality that we must deal with.

Blessings!

Then we really don’t have saving faith and were never saved in the first place.

 

[brb3]

Then we really don’t have saving faith and were never saved in the first place.

One’s ending ‘justifies’ their initial ‘faith’ means. W/O love, our faith is dead, a ‘nothing’. So says St. Paul. 1st Cor. 13:2-3

“and, if I have ALL faith, so as to move mountains, but have not love, I AM NOTHING. If I give alway all I have, and if I deliver my BODY TO BE BURNED, but have NOT LOVE, I gain NOTHING.”

See why FAITH ALONE … is dead ? So says James & Paul …

 

[Philthy]

Then we really don’t have saving faith and were never saved in the first place.

Im not sure why I thought you were prepared to actually enter into a dialogue to discuss some issues that we have different views on - perhaps it was because this is an apologetics forum but more likely I am confusing you with someone else. Nonetheless, your brief and limited comments - which not only lack an explanation of how they relate to my comments but also remain mere unsubstantiated conjecture - fail to actually address any of the points I raised. I have no idea, for example, how your comment above relates to Christ’s comment that unless we forgive others we won’t be forgiven; nor does it seem to have any relationship to the admonitions of Paul (to saved Christians) that I brought up. Is that comment above really all you have as a response? I’ve heard that response dozens of times - it fails to address the issues at hand and begs the question - If our works are the only sure way to know that our faith is a saving faith, then its useless to claim that salvation is by faith alone. What good, exactly, is the information? Apart from doing good works, you apparently cant know that you have a saving faith. The more I interact with people who claim to adhere to “faith alone” the more I realize that what they mean to say is that salvation is not by works alone.

Blessings!