Intelligent Design

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steveandersen said:
:confused: Why must science answer the ā€œwhyā€ or the ā€œwhoā€?

That is not its place really
kinda like using a yard stick to measure temperature

Science is hare to provide mechanistic, naturalistic explanations for how the world works…which it does quite well.

the post above by JSmitty2005 concerning Catholicism and Buddhism illustrates a point. Each faith has millions of adherents who each fervently believe the opposite of what the other does. By leaving the why and how for others however, Buddhist and Catholic Scientists can agree on the principles of science.

sorry, i should have used better words. in science the why(why does that protien do that) is realy (how does that protien do that) but if God truly left evidence of his hand in the universe then the ā€œhowā€ should point to a god, and as creationism is attempting to do, the how should point to the ā€œwhoā€
 
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Brian_C:
wagchewy, I know you mean well but it’s best not to get your science from biased sources from folks who don’t really know much about geology or the fossil record. Not all scientists are out on a mission to debunk the existance of God. We can still see that the evidence tends to support an older earth with a dynamic fossil past. Nothing is absolute and tomorrow someone may come up w/ a logical way to explain everything we know is wrong. But, until that point, we are left with the way the evidence presents itself.
i used only his source(except a quik ref for footprints (if your relating to the article above yours) his source did not confirm his own claims.
I used valid evidence to refute all his claims.
 
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wagchewy:
i was not able to locate the supposed era of your fish(as it was primarily aquatic) or that they were found below any T-Rex bones in your article.
See The Geologic Time Scale for the geological eras.

Acanthostega is one of the Devonian amphibians. Here ā€œDevonianā€ is the name of one of the standard geological periods, from 408 million years ago to 354 million years ago. T. rex cames from the Cretaceous period, 250 million years ago to 65 million years ago. There is no example of any one of the various Devonian amphibians appearing after the Devonian. There is no example of any dinosaur appearing in the Devonian. There is no mixing whatsoever. Not one of those amphibians survived in the flood longer than even a dead dinosaur. No dinosaur bones are mixed in with the Devonian amphibians. Can you explain how a dead dinosaur can swin better than a live amphibian?
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wagchewy:
how can EVERY cycad(as you claim above) be below EVERY oak tree when both plants still exist today? I would love to see your source on that one!
I am aware that cycads exist today, which is why I said ā€œalmostā€ when talking about oak trees and cycads. Much of the coal found in Carboniferous, 354 mya to 290 mya, originated from cycads. There are millions of tons of cycads in Carboniferous rocks yet not one oak tree. I find it difficult to believe such perfect sorting from a chaotic event like a sudden worldwide flood.
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wagchewy:
as for farm animals… that is an interesting idea… i don’t know but it could be that since nothing had been dead long enough for sediment to turn to rock then maybe they got washed away with the top layer of soil and are too scattered to find?
Well done, you are the first Creationist to try to answer my questions on this. Certainly a flood on the scale proposed would wash away vast quantities of topsoil and animal bones. Larger items like bones would sink rapidly to the bottom so we would expect to find the bones of all kinds of animals which had died before the flood mixed up together. We do not find this. All non-avian dinosaur bones are found in Triassic, Jurassic and Cretaceous rocks. All cow and sheep bones are found after the Cretaceous. Not a single bone is out of place. Do dinosaur bones swim less well than mammal bones?
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wagchewy:
huge wall of water that destroyed everything would make it hard to find anything ā€œman madeā€ from before the flood.
How about bits of tile or bricks? Fragments of pottery? Small bits of broken metal? All of these human produced artifacts would have been swept away by the flood and mixed in with the animal bones. Can a potsherd swim better than a live amphibian? Is a dinosaur bone harder and more durable than a bronze knife? We find amphibian and dinosaur bones but we don’t find potsherds or bronze knives.
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wagchewy:
easier than an eyeball could have formed in one evolutionary step
I agree. Unfortunately for your argument, the human eye did not form in ā€œone evolutionary stepā€ but in very many tiny evolutionary steps. What is improbable in one single mighty leap can be achieved by a large number of much smaller (and hence less improbable) steps. Half an eye is 1% more useful than 49% of an eye; that is the way that our eyes evolved.
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wagchewy:
before you politly call me stupid for my idea again
You are not stupid, you are obviously trying to think things through for yourself which is a very good thing to do. Unfortunately you seem to be using too many Creationist sources which are not always scientifically reliable. You would do well to check everything for yourself first.
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wagchewy:
then explain it to me SLOWLY.
For a good introduction to evolution try Understanding Evolution.

rossum
 
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rossum:
I agree. Unfortunately for your argument, the human eye did not form in ā€œone evolutionary stepā€ but in very many tiny evolutionary steps. What is improbable in one single mighty leap can be achieved by a large number of much smaller (and hence less improbable) steps. Half an eye is 1% more useful than 49% of an eye; that is the way that our eyes evolved.
ā€œHalf an eye is 1% more useful than 49% of an eyeā€

ā€œA bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bushā€

ā€œ1 + 1 = 3ā€

ā€œThe ultimate truth is that there is no Ultimate Truthā€

Wouldn’t it be fun to see a timeline, or better yet a computer animation, of how the eyeball evolved? It could be like the defragmentation program on my computer, except a lot less boring to watch. ā€œeyeball 32% complete, 4 million years remaining ā€¦ā€

Then that could be integrated with the simulation of how the ear was developing concurrently, through mutations affecting THAT part of the pre-human organism. And also the brain. And then there’s the rest of the body… All these mutations acting in concert and driven, not by a pre-set design, but by the natural algorithm of genetic mutational frequency over the probability any mutation helps rather than hurts survival chances. (ā€œMutantā€ doesn’t have a good connotation in these days of the Cenozoic era)

Evolution is incredible!

If only there was a scientific way to evaluate the probability that something like that could actually happen. You know, like figuring out how often mutations occur and what percentage of mutations are actually HELPFUL to survival. Then when you have a ā€œgood mutationā€ coefficient, you could look at how many million years you’ve got to work with (as told by infallible carbon dating) and see if the concept MIGHT HYPOTHETICALLY work. Oh wait!, those ā€œIntelligent Designā€ scientist guys are kind of doing this aren’t they?

But anyway I’m just going to continue to believe in Catholic Creationism until they work it all out.
For a good introduction to evolution try Understanding Evolution.
This is a link to evolution.berkeley.edu. In evaluating the trustworthiness of any link to the Univ of California at Berkeley one might want to be aware that many people who live in the Berkeley area refer to that university by the name ā€œBerzerklyā€. 😃
 
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urban-hermit:
…Evolution is incredible!
Yes it is. Very much so. šŸ˜‰
The subtle beauty of Creation through evolution is amazing
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urban-hermit:
… Oh wait!, those ā€œIntelligent Designā€ scientist guys are kind of doing this aren’t they?
Nope. They’re just saying ā€œGoddiditā€ whenever they come up against something they have trouble explaining.

Bad science
Worse theology
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urban-hermit:
But anyway I’m just going to continue to believe in Catholic Creationism until they work it all out.
And what would that be?
AFAIK the Church hasn’t fixed one interpretation
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urban-hermit:
This is a link to evolution.berkeley.edu. In evaluating the trustworthiness of any link to the Univ of California at Berkeley one might want to be aware that many people who live in the Berkeley area refer to that university by the name ā€œBerzerklyā€. 😃
What does its city of origin have to do with the validity of the arguments? :rolleyes:
 
urban << Wouldn’t it be fun to see a timeline, or better yet a computer animation, of how the eyeball evolved? It could be like the defragmentation program on my computer, except a lot less boring to watch. ā€œeyeball 32% complete, 4 million years remaining ā€¦ā€ >>

Been done. It took a few hundred thousand years.

Evolution of the Eye

Here are the people who figured it out

Lund Vision Group
Your computer model is here

More links on eye evolution

urban << But anyway I’m just going to continue to believe in Catholic Creationism until they work it all out. >>

I wouldn’t recommend that, or I’ll add you to my list 😃

Phil P
 
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rossum:
T. rex cames from the Cretaceous period, 250 million years ago to 65 million years ago.
T. rex is indeed from the Cretaceous but I gave the wrong years for it. 250 mya to 65 mya is the Mesozoic era. The Cretaceous is only the last part of the Mesozoic and covers 144 mya to 64 mya. The rest of the Mesozoic is taken up with the Triassic (250 to 206 mya) and Jurassic (206 to 144 mya) periods.

My thanks to Tim (Orogeny) for pointing this out to me. My apologies to all for the mistake.

rossum
 
wagchewy, I know you mean well but it’s best not to get your science from biased sources from folks who don’t really know much about geology or the fossil record. Not all scientists are out on a mission to debunk the existance of God. We can still see that the evidence tends to support an older earth with a dynamic fossil past. Nothing is absolute and tomorrow someone may come up w/ a logical way to explain everything we know is wrong. But, until that point, we are left with the way the evidence presents itself.
 
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steveandersen:
AFAIK the Church hasn’t fixed one interpretation
It’s true - the Church has not fixed one interpretation. We are free to believe more than one way about creation. I find the Creation by God in 6 days to be the best.

A while back I learned from a post in another thread that there are 9 things the Church requires us to believe about the creation story. I feel my beliefs on creation work well in supporting my belief in these nine things, and everything else the Church requires us to believe. It is my sincere hope that you can say the same about your belief in evolution.
 
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urban-hermit:
It’s true - the Church has not fixed one interpretation. We are free to believe more than one way about creation. I find the Creation by God in 6 days to be the best.
No disrespect but I’m curious how you reconcile your belief with measurable, known, demonstrateble quantities?

or is it simply not an issue?
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urban-hermit:
… It is my sincere hope that you can say the same about your belief in evolution.
Evolution has nothing to do with belief. It is about probabilities, likelihood, and degrees of certainty.

I’m comfortable that my belief in creation has no problem meshing with my degree of certainty about evolution.

In fact I personally find my faith enhanced through an understanding of the process.

Scientists use the word ā€œelegantā€ to describe theory that fits the known data in the simplest, straightforward way. To me evolution is elegant in very many ways.
 
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steveandersen:
No disrespect but I’m curious how you reconcile your belief with measurable, known, demonstrateble quantities?

or is it simply not an issue?

Evolution has nothing to do with belief. It is about probabilities, likelihood, and degrees of certainty.

I’m comfortable that my belief in creation has no problem meshing with my degree of certainty about evolution.

In fact I personally find my faith enhanced through an understanding of the process.

Scientists use the word ā€œelegantā€ to describe theory that fits the known data in the simplest, straightforward way. To me evolution is elegant in very many ways.
And the complexity and elegance of a system that could lead to the development of a rational being, i.e. humans, suggests a designer of that system.
 
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steveandersen:
No disrespect but I’m curious how you reconcile your belief with measurable, known, demonstrateble quantities?

.
Science is like looking through a tube. You can see pretty clearly what is not limited by the tube. But when you look without the constraints of the tube much more is revealed.

I submit the measurable, known, and demonstratable quantities are what we can see thorugh the tube.
 
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LatinCat:
And the complexity and elegance of a system that could lead to the development of a rational being, i.e. humans, suggests a designer of that system.
how?

(FWIW I said it was elegant in its simplicity not becasue it was complex)
 
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steveandersen:
how?

(FWIW I said it was elegant in its simplicity not becasue it was complex)
I’ll get you a reference for a scientist who suggests that the entire universe is oredered to this priniciple. But I’ll have to get the reference tonight when I get home from my job. The scientist calls it the ā€œanthropic principleā€.
 
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steveandersen:
how?

(FWIW I said it was elegant in its simplicity not becasue it was complex)
Simplicity? Have you ever studied physics or chemistry? Simplicity has nothing to do with it. And if we take the materialistic view, do words like ā€œeleganceā€ have any meaning?
 
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