Intelligent Design

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I can’t speak much to the issue of high school science textbooks, but you can find lots of intermingling of the science of evolution with the philosophical implications of evolutionism in any number of popular books on the subject. Then again, some authors just stick with the science. For example, you can read some excellent discussions of the modern synthesis of evolutionary thought in any of the many books by Richard Dawkins. However, Dawkins tends to occasionally lob in one of his agnosto-atheistic grenades into the discussion as well. I gloss over them and move on the the rest of the science discussion.

Hey, if it was simple folks, then somebody would have explained it all already. 😃
 
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PhilVaz:
Hey play my new game darn it, eat the dots and learn about evolution and ID, a completely original video game :eek:

Uncommon Dissent: The Game

Phil P
Dude, that is the coolest game I have ever played!
The argument’s settled as far as I’m concerned.
 
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arieh0310:
All ID tries to do is say that the scientific evidence points to order and design. Random, meaningless, unguided accident cannot explain the complexity of biological systems.

**The natural evidence absolutely does point to order and design, and if you did not learn the order and design present in the systems that cause evolution, you were poorly taught. Evolution is not random accident. It fully incorporates and is based on a wonderful complexity of interactions from the molecular level up.
**

Why is atheism the only acceptable worldview allowed in school? If evolution is a theory and ID is a theory, why can’t both be presented as theories about the origin of life? As long as we are careful to subtract any denominational distinctives about the nature of God I do not see the problem with having intellectual diversity on the theory of the origin of life. If ID is excluded for HS and college courses (and it is excluded even in higher ed) how can we refine each other’s arguments?

**Not being present in your school. I cannot comment on how the material was presented. But not mentioning God is not the same as atheism. ID cannot be brought up in a science class because it is not science, and because there exists no concrete evidence for it as a scientific theory. It is a philosophy which deals with how the natural processes which we observe might be controlled, but likewise, people could come up with (and have) the “theory” that we are all part of a video game and nothing more than binary code in a computer. Yet, we don’t present that in science class either…because there is no natural evidence that such is true. However, in philosophy class, people write papers on just such subjects.

Science is only one tool in our tool box, and it has its place, but it is not the only tool or the best tool for every aspect of life. I teach my students that in science class. Here is a useful tool, apply when necessary, but don’t throw out your other tools.

Unfortunately, many people too willingly give up their power to judge and discern to anything they think might “save” them. Many people have made a god of science. They do not understand the nature of science, that it changes, that it does not provide the final answer, nor does it CLAIM TO.

People’s personal choice to place science in the place of god is unfortunate however bringing religion into the science classroom to “balance” this is not the remedy.

I think that BETTER science education is the answer, not muddying the waters even more. Part of the role of a science educator is to teach the limits of science, as well as the benefits. I am sorry that this key part was left out of your education.

cheddar

**
 
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Orogeny:
I strongly disagree with this statement. I keep a very close eye on my son’s science curriculum in public high school. He took biology last year. There was no mention of God or athiesm in the book and, according to him, any comments from the teacher that led him to believe that she was implying anything regarding God or a lack of God. He and I have had many involved discussions regarding evolution and faith, so he knows what to look for.
I find it hard to believe that a teacher would review the Theory of Evolution and not discus the controversial history of the theory.
 
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Orogeny:
As I have done many times in the past with you, Bufallo, I agree. Teach ID in metaphysics and evolution in science.

Peace

Tim
Should every HS be required to teach philosophy and comparative religion?
 
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Orogeny:
As I have done many times in the past with you, Bufallo, I agree. Teach ID in metaphysics and evolution in science.

Peace

Tim
Under the strict definitions of science macro-evolution should not be in science class either.
 
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Orogeny:
What if something is declared “designed” and at some point in the future, someone finds a natural explaination?

Peace

Tim
That’s the same approach naturalists have been making for years. Give us enough time and we will eventually find a natural explanation for everything.

How long should we wait? and during all this time of waiting we should just wait or should we explore the supernatural?

In the end the answer is God will be the one who makes the call.
 
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Maranatha:
I find it hard to believe that a teacher would review the Theory of Evolution and not discus the controversial history of the theory.
Why? The controversy is not scientific, rather it is philosophical.

Peace

Tim
 
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buffalo:
Under the strict definitions of science macro-evolution should not be in science class either.
That has clearly been your opinion all along. I disagree with you as do, what, 99.5% of scientists?😃

Peace

Tim
 
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Maranatha:
Should every HS be required to teach philosophy and comparative religion?
Here is what I propose.

The set number of required courses. Reading , writing, arithemetic, etc…

Science - required
Metaphysics - required

Electives: anything the student majority would demand. If the area was predominantly Catholic and the demand was there the school could offer as an optional (not mandatory) course a class on saints or the Bible or whatever.
 
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buffalo:
That’s the same approach naturalists have been making for years. Give us enough time and we will eventually find a natural explanation for everything.

How long should we wait? and during all this time of waiting we should just wait or should we explore the supernatural?

In the end the answer is God will be the one who makes the call.
How long should we wait is basically what I asked. Are you the one who decides that scientists have had enough time?

What are you afraid of? That answers will be found? Why limit the time to research a subject at all?

Peace

Tim
 
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Orogeny:
If you think the deposits laid down during a volcanic eruptions is typical or even similar to what you would see in a sedimentary depositional system, you REALLY need to find a new source for your information!:rotfl:
I will guarantee you that not one single educated geologist would confuse the pyroclastic deposits generated by St. Helens with, say, the sedimentary, igneous (both extrusive and intrusive) and metamorphic rocks in the Grand Canyon.
Thanks for the sarcasm and for putting words in my mouth. I made no reference to the Grand Canyon and I would never say that it was created by volcanic eruption. All I was saying is that the canyon system (which, incidentally is 1/40th the size of the Grand Canyon) looks like something that would have taken a long time to form (through erosion)
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Orogeny:
The sediments unveiled by the scablands flood were not laid down in that flood. They were a combination of basalt and loess, which is basically sediment deposited during glacial episodes.
I will note that you admit that scientists have accepted the idea. That’s how science works. Believe it or not, Einstein’s ideas weren’t fully accepted until some predictions made by his theory could be tested.
Again, my point about the Scablands is what had had previously been ridiculed by the scientific community is now being embrased NOVA One of the main reasons that J Harlen Bretz was laughed at was that his theory sounded like too much like the Biblical flood.

Scientists, as you have demonstrated, seem to have a nasty habit of demeaning and insulting the intelligence of people who dare challenge the prevailing scientific dogma of the day (just look at Ignaz Semmelweis)
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Orogeny:
I was never taught that life sprang into existence though a mindless, random process. Maybe you went to a bad school. And since ID folks don’t use science (incredulity is a better description), your last sentence is meaningless.
Maybe my school was bad (I do live in the least churched state in the union) and simply an anomily, I hope so. By the way, I do not oppose evolution being taught in school nor am I a young earth creationist. I am a staunch creationist, but I take the creation account in Genesis to be using figurative language to explain a historical truth.

However, how I see evolution presented in schools is not “hey, this is a theory about how to explain the diversity of life on this planet” but as absolute truth that explains the origins of life itself.
 
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Orogeny:
How long should we wait is basically what I asked. Are you the one who decides that scientists have had enough time?

What are you afraid of? That answers will be found? Why limit the time to research a subject at all?

Peace

Tim
C’mon Tim! Do I look like I am afraid of the truth? No! I am only afraid of mistakes being taught as truth.

I would not limit the time to research.

I did make the point that the ultimate judge of this time will be God, as He created everything and that we only only find natural explanations to natural things no matter how long it takes. The things that are not natural will never have a natural explanation.

We should be pursuuing both paths, and teaching about both paths.
 
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Orogeny:
Why? The controversy is not scientific, rather it is philosophical.

Peace

Tim
Teachers like to make their class interesting. Conflict is interesting.
 
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Orogeny:
I disagree with you as do, what, 99.5% of scientists?
Science by consensus is the worst kind of science. To restrict scientific inquirey to only what the consensus believes forces science to reiterate rather than discover. Darwinism is now, not based on fact, but on philosophy. Parts of it have a factual backing (fossiles do exist) but much of it proceeds from the assumption that there is a long slow evolutionary process and that newer is better (humans being new and paramecium being old).

It seems even difficult to discuss the origin of life in a school even though Darwin’s evolution has nothing to say on this. The first life had to begin, not evolve.

There is no known mechanism for the origin of life, unless you are willing to accept probablilitically impossible chemical reactions.

I’ve never seen any ID presentations by scientists that assume a God or supernatural entity. Rather it is extremely unlikely that the results of the random events are unassisted. IE the hypothesis of unguided random actions are mathematically untenable.

Neither theory is testable. So some would say neither is science.
 
Science by its very definition attempts to explain phenomenon only by the laws of nature. Anything unnatural or supernatural (ie. - God!) would then be opposed to science. Evolution is the naturalistic explanation for the origin of life. This presupposition that everything is explainable by means of nature is directly opposed to God’s existence. It’s called scientism. This is why all Christians, Jews, and Muslims should oppose this theory and exploit its lack of evidence because it in opposition to our Creator. In order for us to accomodate a belief in God as Creator, then the evolutionary theory has to be adapted. Likewise, in order to appease the scientific community, theologians are trying to reconcile evolution with creation. Either way, they won’t mesh perfectly.
 
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buffalo:
Here is what I propose.

The set number of required courses. Reading , writing, arithemetic, etc…

Science - required
Metaphysics - required

Electives: anything the student majority would demand. If the area was predominantly Catholic and the demand was there the school could offer as an optional (not mandatory) course a class on saints or the Bible or whatever.
Uh…we could probably use civics and history in there.
Science without civics and history = unbelievable carnage and human suffering
 
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MichaelTDoyle:
Uh…we could probably use civics and history in there.
Science without civics and history = unbelievable carnage and human suffering
I agree - and I would add unrevised history.
 
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