Intelligent Design

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It is immensely frustrating to talk about science with people who have no idea of what we are talking about.

Reminds me of the saying: Discussing evolution with a creationist is like playing chess with a pigeon … (you can look up the rest)
Argumentum ad hominem - and a breach of the forum conduct rule of courtesy. In addition to which a false equation of belief in Design with Creationism - as if God had no plan whatsoever when He created the universe and made man in His own image and likeness…
 
Irrefutable - unless God is regarded as a inactive Spectator… 🙂
You said yourself:

“God not only constantly sustains everyone and everything in existence”

That constant sustenance alone makes God an active player at all times, even when He does not “intervene” – but why should He intervene all the time in the natural causes, the secondary causes that He Himself created??

As you quoted from the Bible:
“Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”

So are you accusing God of not intervening enough when someone becomes bald with age? That would be blasphemy. And yes, during both the full-hair phase and the balding process " the very hairs of your head are all numbered" as Jesus says. Obviously Jesus does not claim that God intervenes with every hair, but that God knows everything and cares about us – even when He lets natural processes such as balding occur without ‘intervention’.

So if God lets natural processes occur like balding or growing of hair without ‘intervention’, why should He not let evolution, another natural process that He created, run its course without ‘intervention’?
 
The Pope doesn’t reject Christ’s teaching about Providence and answers to prayer.
So you agree with the Pope that evolution can be part of God’s Providence? Good, then we are all on the same page.
 
And it is quite clear that science is "straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science.
Then it’s simply not science anymore. Or are you talking about individual scientists, expressing their personal opinions?
 
Argumentum ad hominem - and a breach of the forum conduct rule of courtesy - for which an apology is required. In addition to which a false equation of belief in Design with Creationism - as if God had no plan whatsoever when He created the universe and made man in His own image and likeness…
FYI
Creationism: the belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the Biblical account, rather than by natural processes such as evolution.
  • Oxford dictionary
Creation and Evolution are **not **mutually exclusive. It is simplistic to think otherwise.
 
Argumentum ad hominem - and a breach of the forum conduct rule of courtesy.
Excuse me, but I have been told that I align myself with atheism. I take this as an insult.
In addition to which a false equation of belief in Design with Creationism
No, ID is still Creationism in new clothes. This became apparent during the 2005 Kitzmiller trial and has been discussed earlier on this thread.
 
You said yourself:

“God not only constantly sustains everyone and everything in existence”

That constant sustenance alone makes God an active player at all times, even when He does not “intervene” – but why should He intervene all the time in the natural causes, the secondary causes that He Himself created??
It is not clear to me why that “sustaining” is irreconcilable with intelligence permeating the entire enterprise as a kind of operative principle which is taken as “causation” or “laws” by observers who attempt to impose “mechanical” paradigms upon it.

Yes, I know, human intelligence is also a paradigm being imposed by ID proponents. My point, however, is that neither paradigm may be correct or even representative of the reality underpinning the order that sustains the universe. It just seems foolish to categorize it as determinably one or the other when the full account is not even near being properly depicted by either.
 
FYI - Oxford dictionary

Creation and Evolution are **not **mutually exclusive. It is simplistic to think otherwise.
Of course they are. For the non-theist, nothing turning into people is satisfying. The idea that anything created anything must be preached against as often as necessary. That is the whole reason for pseudo-discussions such as this.

Ed
 
You said yourself:

“God not only constantly sustains everyone and everything in existence”

That constant sustenance alone makes God an active player at all times, even when He does not “intervene” – but why should He intervene all the time in the natural causes, the secondary causes that He Himself created??

As you quoted from the Bible:
“Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”

So are you accusing God of not intervening enough when someone becomes bald with age? That would be blasphemy. And yes, during both the full-hair phase and the balding process " the very hairs of your head are all numbered" as Jesus says. Obviously Jesus does not claim that God intervenes with every hair, but that God knows everything and cares about us – even when He lets natural processes such as balding occur without ‘intervention’.

So if God lets natural processes occur like balding or growing of hair without ‘intervention’, why should He not let evolution, another natural process that He created, run its course without ‘intervention’?
Consider the quantum effects of prayer. God could have set it up so that we have more to do with this than we know.
 
Excuse me, but I have been told that I align myself with atheism. I take this as an insult.

No, ID is still Creationism in new clothes. This became apparent during the 2005 Kitzmiller trial and has been discussed earlier on this thread.
Does design exist? If it does then what is the issue with identifying it and studying it? What is there to be afraid of?

ID the science does not name the designer. Philosophy tries to identify the designer.
 
It must be absolutely atrocious considering that it has survived a mere 3.5 billion years and produced the greatest polluters of this planet but then miracles never cease, do they?
Can I add another ‘Huh?’

What ‘it’ are you talking about, Tony. Man? Do you think we’ve been around for a few billion years?

Never has so much been written by so many who knew so little about the subject.
 
Excuse me, but I have been told that I align myself with atheism. I take this as an insult.

No, ID is still Creationism in new clothes. This became apparent during the 2005 Kitzmiller trial and has been discussed earlier on this thread.
No more insulting than reducing or equating a distinctive philosophical perspective - one that allows a range of possible nuances and one having a respected philosophical pedigree long predating Kitzmiller - with Creationism merely because a naive district court judge presumed to himself the unwarranted authority to decide abiding philosophical questions by legal fiat.
 
Consider the quantum effects of prayer. God could have set it up so that we have more to do with this than we know.
There’s that “could have” statement…and what quantum effects of prayer? I imagine you have some sort of tangible evidence for such a phenomenon.
 
ID is pseudoscience and poor theology.
Good Evening Hans: I imagine that good theology v bad theology is a matter of what one subscribes to, and is usually a matter of what we’ve been taught. I am suggesting that culture has defined such things for the most part. When only one person believes a particular theology we often call it a delusion. When a handful believe a theology, we call it a cult. When a lot of people believe it, we call it a religion.
As the previous poster said, God has set up the laws of physics in such a way that the universe has the potential to evolve without any supernatural tinkering.
We have been taught that there are laws of nature, and we’ve heard it so much that we take it to be true without question. But I would offer that we are projecting human syntax onto nature. Humans have laws and therefore we project our own ideas onto the world around us, however, all we really can say is that the world around us behaves in certain patterns. These patterns can be learned behaviors rather than governed by laws put in place by a creator.

Let me be specific about what I’m suggesting. For instance, it is widely accepted these days that the universe started with a singularity or big bang. For billions of years after the big bang there were only simple elements like hydrogen and helium. There were no elements of the complexity required to make up the world you and I live in. Not even the particles we are made of were present. These didn’t come along until after there were stars to die and in the process of dying created matter such as carbon. For billions of years after creation, there were no objects to be governed. Such things were yet to be. The way things behaved as they slowly developed onto the temporal landscape can simply be characteristics of their nature, and they learn to interact with other things as new things develop. Simple elements react with simple elements and create more complex elements that interact with other more complex elements and compounds, and create new modes of interaction, as well as greater complexity and novelty. In other words, the world can simply learn as it goes. There is no need for a master architect that is separate from the outcomes we suppose it created. And while the dogma of science for the past 500 years teaches that there are laws, there is no reason to suppose that this is anything more than humanity viewing the world around us through the lens of our own cultural conditioning. In other words, saying that there are laws of nature could simply be habit as well.

In short, the world could be anything, and I am offering the idea that in truth, nobody really knows anything about what the world is. Not scientists, not theologians, not professors, saints or the Wall Street Journal know anything about what the world truly is. So I wonder why we torment ourselves trying to put linguistic tiles on everything we experience and just take things as they come.

I do agree with you that there is no need for a cosmic tinkerer, but I also don’t find any compelling reason to believe in a creator who makes laws governing how things act. Just my opinion though and I am open to suggestions.

Thank you,
Gary
 
Good Evening Hans: I imagine that good theology v bad theology is a matter of what one subscribes to, and is usually a matter of what we’ve been taught. I am suggesting that culture has defined such things for the most part. When only one person believes a particular theology we often call it a delusion. When a handful believe a theology, we call it a cult. When a lot of people believe it, we call it a religion.

Thank you,
Gary
Gary, I am not a theologian. I can only repeat what I hear theologian say about the whole creation/ID/evolution business. I am happy to supply you with list of Christian philosophers since this is part of the research going into my thesis.

In short, God is seen of having created the universe
“with no functional deficiencies, no gaps in its economy of the sort that would require God to act immediately, temporarily assuming the role of a creature (in the physical universe) to perform functions within the economy of the creation that other creatures have not been equipped to perform.
When the Creator says, ‘Let the land produce vegetation,’ or ‘Let the water teem with living creatures,’ or ‘Let the land produce living creatures,’ a world created with functional integrity will, by the enabling power and directing governance of God, be able to respond obediently and employ its capacities to carry out the intentions of the Creator.” (quoted from Howard Van Till).
Ernan McMullin, a philosopher of religion and Catholic priest, has also written extensively on the topic of evolution. I can highly recommend three books by (Catholic) John Haught who is Senior Fellow in Science and Religion at the Woodstock Theological Center and professor of theology at Georgetown university, titled: “Science and Faith”, “Making sense of evolution” and “God and the new atheism”.
 
… Kitzmiller - with Creationism merely because a naive district court judge presumed to himself the unwarranted authority to decide abiding philosophical questions by legal fiat.
I recommend you do some reading on that case. It was a conservative, Bush-appointed, Bible-believing judge who didn’t muddle his verdict in philosophical jargon.

Wikipedia gives you a short overview: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

Go down to “Verdict” and “Conclusion”.
 
Never has so much been written by so many who knew so little about the subject.
Ain’t that the truth . . .

Well, sad as it is, only almost and not necessarily. My experience is that debating atheists on cosmological fine-tuning can be just as exasperating and futile (I have had my share of battles, espcially on atheist websites). But that’s a subject for another discussion…

Interestingly, on that subject many (not all!) atheists turn out to be just as much science deniers as creationists are on evolution *). One can of course have a vigorous and legitimate debate about the philsosophical outcomes, but not about the facts.

As the saying goes, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.

*) and in Victor Stenger they have their own atheistic equivalent of a Michael Behe on this issue, too
 
Gary, I am not a theologian. I can only repeat what I hear theologian say about the whole creation/ID/evolution business. I am happy to supply you with list of Christian philosophers since this is part of the research going into my thesis.

In short, God is seen of having created the universe
“with no functional deficiencies, no gaps in its economy of the sort that would require God to act immediately, temporarily assuming the role of a creature (in the physical universe) to perform functions within the economy of the creation that other creatures have not been equipped to perform.
When the Creator says, ‘Let the land produce vegetation,’ or ‘Let the water teem with living creatures,’ or ‘Let the land produce living creatures,’ a world created with functional integrity will, by the enabling power and directing governance of God, be able to respond obediently and employ its capacities to carry out the intentions of the Creator.” (quoted from Howard Van Till).
Ernan McMullin, a philosopher of religion and Catholic priest, has also written extensively on the topic of evolution. I can highly recommend three books by (Catholic) John Haught who is Senior Fellow in Science and Religion at the Woodstock Theological Center and professor of theology at Georgetown university, titled: “Science and Faith”, “Making sense of evolution” and “God and the new atheism”.
Or, we can take the Church herself, in one of her documents, Communion and Stewardship. Paragraph 69 highlights the evolution/ID debate:

“69. The current scientific debate about the mechanisms at work in evolution requires theological comment insofar as it sometimes implies a misunderstanding of the nature of divine causality. Many neo-Darwinian scientists, as well as some of their critics, have concluded that, if evolution is a radically contingent materialistic process driven by natural selection and random genetic variation, then there can be no place in it for divine providential causality. A growing body of scientific critics of neo-Darwinism point to evidence of design (e.g., biological structures that exhibit specified complexity) that, in their view, cannot be explained in terms of a purely contingent process and that neo-Darwinians have ignored or misinterpreted. The nub of this currently lively disagreement involves scientific observation and generalization concerning whether the available data support inferences of design or chance, and cannot be settled by theology.”

Yet then the paragraph continues, clearly outlining why evolution (even as taken without biological ID), even as a process without what we usually would call constant ‘intervention’, and even as one involving random processes (in genetic variation; cumulative natural selection on genetic variation as a substrate makes evolution overall a non-random process), can nonetheless be a process falling under Divine Providence:

“But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).”
 
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