Intercessors other than Christ

[mercygate]

do you call someone in your parish who may pray for you an intercessor?? That would be a first for me.

Why yes! When we pray for other people and for their needs, it is called it “intercessory prayer.” The section of the Mass where we offer our petitions to the Lord is referred to as “the intercessions.” There is a section in the Breviary (Liturgy of the Hours) offices of Morning and Evening Prayer for every day called INTERCESSIONS.

Intercessions are just prayers when we “ask God for stuff.” So the person praying those prayers is an “intercessor.”

We have a lot of different kinds of prayer: praise, confession, meditation, contemplation, liturgical prayer . . . Intercessory prayer is just one of the many ways in which we pray.

 

[boppaid]

I look at prayers to Mary and I can’t help but see more there than “asking her to pray for us”. In many of these prayers, we are asking something **from her **other than her prayers. See the highlighted parts below.

Behold, O Mother of Perpetual Help, at thy feet a wretched sinner, who has recourse to thee and trusts in thee. O Mother of mercy, have pity on me; hear all men call thee the refuge and hope of sinners: be therefore my refuge and my hope (Shouldn’t we declare Christ our refuge and hope?). Help me for the love of Jesus Christ: hold out thy hand to a fallen wretch, who commends himself to thee and dedicates himself to be thy servant forever. I praise and thank God, who of His great mercy hath given me this confidence in thee, a sure pledge of my eternal salvation. Alas, it is only too true that in the past I have fallen miserably, because I did not come to thee. (How can not knowing Mary cause us to fall? If we know Christ as our savior, we can still fail because we don’t know Mary?) I know that with thy help I shall conquer; I know that thou wilt help me, if I commend myself to thee; but I am fearful lest in the occasions of sin I shall forget to call upon thee and so I shall be lost. **This grace, then, do I ask of thee; for this I implore thee, as much as I can and know how to do; namely, that in the assaults of hell I may ever run to thy protection and may say to thee: Mary, help me; Mother of Perpetual Help, permit me not to lose my God. ** (I thought a poster on this thread said that don’t ever ask for grace nor do we receive grace from Mary?)
Hail Mary

O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant me ever to be able to call upon thy powerful name, since thy name is the help of the living and the salvation of the dying. Ah, Mary most pure, Mary most sweet, grant that thy name from this day forth may be to me the very breath of life. Dear Lady, delay not to come to my assistance whenever I call upon thee; for in all the temptations that assail me, in all the necessities that befall me, I will never leave off calling upon thee, ever repeating: Mary, Mary. What comfort, what sweetness, what confidence, what tenderness fills my soul at the sound of thy name, at the very thought of thee! I give thanks to our Lord, who for my sake hath given thee a name so sweet, so lovable, so mighty. But I am not content merely to speak thy name; I would utter it for very love of thee; it is my desire that love should ever remind me to name thee, Mother of Perpetual Help.

Hail Mary

O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of every grace that God grants us in our misery; it is for this cause that He hath made thee so powerful, so rich, so kind, that thou mightest assist us in our miseries. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners, if they but come unto thee; come once more to my assistance, for I commend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation; **to thee I entrust my soul. **Enroll me among thy most faithful servants; take me under thy protection and it is enough for me: yes, for if thou protect me, I shall fear nothing; not my sins, for thou wilt obtain for me their pardon and remission; not the evil spirits, for thou art mightier than all the powers of hell; not even Jesus, my Judge, for He is appeased by a single prayer from thee. I fear only that through my own negligence I may forget to recommend myself to thee and so I shall be lost. My dear Lady, obtain for me the forgiveness of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance and the grace to have recourse to thee at all times, O Mother of Perpetual Help.

Hail Mary

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I look at prayers to Mary and I can’t help but see more there than “asking her to pray for us”. In many of these prayers, we are asking something **from her **other than her prayers. See the highlighted parts below.

Behold, O Mother of Perpetual Help, at thy feet a wretched sinner, who has recourse to thee and trusts in thee. O Mother of mercy, have pity on me; hear all men call thee the refuge and hope of sinners: be therefore my refuge and my hope (Shouldn’t we declare Christ our refuge and hope?). Help me for the love of Jesus Christ: hold out thy hand to a fallen wretch, who commends himself to thee and dedicates himself to be thy servant forever. I praise and thank God, who of His great mercy hath given me this confidence in thee, a sure pledge of my eternal salvation. Alas, it is only too true that in the past I have fallen miserably, because I did not come to thee. (How can not knowing Mary cause us to fall? If we know Christ as our savior, we can still fail because we don’t know Mary?) I know that with thy help I shall conquer; I know that thou wilt help me, if I commend myself to thee; but I am fearful lest in the occasions of sin I shall forget to call upon thee and so I shall be lost. **This grace, then, do I ask of thee; for this I implore thee, as much as I can and know how to do; namely, that in the assaults of hell I may ever run to thy protection and may say to thee: Mary, help me; Mother of Perpetual Help, permit me not to lose my God. ** (I thought a poster on this thread said that don’t ever ask for grace nor do we receive grace from Mary?)
Hail Mary

O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant me ever to be able to call upon thy powerful name, since thy name is the help of the living and the salvation of the dying. Ah, Mary most pure, Mary most sweet, grant that thy name from this day forth may be to me the very breath of life. Dear Lady, delay not to come to my assistance whenever I call upon thee; for in all the temptations that assail me, in all the necessities that befall me, I will never leave off calling upon thee, ever repeating: Mary, Mary. What comfort, what sweetness, what confidence, what tenderness fills my soul at the sound of thy name, at the very thought of thee! I give thanks to our Lord, who for my sake hath given thee a name so sweet, so lovable, so mighty. But I am not content merely to speak thy name; I would utter it for very love of thee; it is my desire that love should ever remind me to name thee, Mother of Perpetual Help.

Hail Mary

O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of every grace that God grants us in our misery; it is for this cause that He hath made thee so powerful, so rich, so kind, that thou mightest assist us in our miseries. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners, if they but come unto thee; come once more to my assistance, for I commend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation; **to thee I entrust my soul. **Enroll me among thy most faithful servants; take me under thy protection and it is enough for me: yes, for if thou protect me, I shall fear nothing; not my sins, for thou wilt obtain for me their pardon and remission; not the evil spirits, for thou art mightier than all the powers of hell; not even Jesus, my Judge, for He is appeased by a single prayer from thee. I fear only that through my own negligence I may forget to recommend myself to thee and so I shall be lost. My dear Lady, obtain for me the forgiveness of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance and the grace to have recourse to thee at all times, O Mother of Perpetual Help.

Hail Mary

I’m curious as to where you found this. I looked on EWTN who has a list of Catholic prayers and didn’t find this one. Can you provide a link? Thanks.

edit: nevermind, found several copies online. One of them is here:

catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=876

I’m glad you found this. I’m going to start using it

Peace…

MW

 

[Contarini]

do you call someone in your parish who may pray for you an intercessor?? That would be a first for me.

It’s a term I heard all the time growing up in evangelical/fundamentalist circles.

Edwin

 

[boppaid]

I’m curious as to where you found this. I looked on EWTN who has a list of Catholic prayers and didn’t find this one. Can you provide a link? Thanks.

edit: nevermind, found several copies online. One of them is here:

catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=876

I’m glad you found this. I’m going to start using it

Peace…

MW

I’m glad you found it. Could you help me out w/ the parts I highlighted? These are the types of things I, even as a Catholic, have problems with. Thanks!

 

[Apryl]

I’m glad you found it. Could you help me out w/ the parts I highlighted? These are the types of things I, even as a Catholic, have problems with. Thanks!

I like to think that I’m a devout Catholic, but I, too, have trouble with prayers TO Mary.

But then, I think of the Wedding in Cana.

The wine steward didn’t even say to Mary, ‘Could you get your Son to get us some wine’.

Ok, he didn’t ask Mary for the wine either.

He simply went to her with his needs and wants, and she, in turn, went to her Holy Son.

That’s that. End of discussion. Why it works? I haven’t the foggiest.

But there is a reason why that story is in the Gospels, and a reason why so many people, Catholic and not, know that story.

Mary is OUR mother, too… and as our mother, when we have wants and needs, you just know she’s going to take care of them. Esp if you’ve ‘been good’ and ‘done like you were told to do’

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I’m glad you found it. Could you help me out w/ the parts I highlighted? These are the types of things I, even as a Catholic, have problems with. Thanks!

I’m non-Catholic so i couldn’t tell you, sorry. I have just begun my relationship with Mary, the saints and the angels. I know at first sight it appears that Mary is given too much “praise” and too much help is asked, but I will have to look at it further to see what I think about it. Sorry I couldn’t be more help

Peace…

MW

 

[mercygate]

I’m non-Catholic so i couldn’t tell you, sorry. I have just begun my relationship with Mary, the saints and the angels. I know at first sight it appears that Mary is given too much “praise” and too much help is asked, but I will have to look at it further to see what I think about it. Sorry I couldn’t be more help

Peace…

MW

As a Convert myself, I am completely solid with the IDEA of Mary, her intercession for us, and the theological rationale for her position and for the Marian dogmas.

What I think a lot of our Protestant challengers have trouble with is much of the devotional apparatus surrounding her. Much Marian devotion – when unbridled by the restraints of theology and discipline – has been absolutely idolatrous and way off the mark in terms of Church teaching.

Newman was the one who clarified it for me when he distinguished between doctrine and devotion relating to Mary. A lot of the devotion arises from cultural traditions that only with difficulty can be lassoed into a semblance of Church teaching.

 

[Didi]

Jesus gave us His Mother at the foot of the cross. Mothers are there to protect and guide their children. Little Jewish children would run and hide under their mothers’ mantels’ for protection (a mantle being an outer garment or robe). So we run to Mary for protection from the spiritual enemy. We hide under her mantle.

She is an instrument of grace, just as we all are when we pray for others and ask for God’s grace upon them. She has no power that does not come from God.

Sometimes the language in many of the ancient Marian prayers is very romantic. Sometimes it is a translation of a prayer originated in another language. This can sometimes cause confusion.

Mary is my light, my sweetness and my hope because I know she will never do anything to lead me away from her Son, Jesus. She longs for us to know Him better and better. And who can teach us about Him better than His own Mother?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

As a Convert myself, I am completely solid with the IDEA of Mary, her intercession for us, and the theological rationale for her position and for the Marian dogmas.

What I think a lot of our Protestant challengers have trouble with is much of the devotional apparatus surrounding her. Much Marian devotion – when unbridled by the restraints of theology and discipline – has been absolutely idolatrous and way off the mark in terms of Church teaching.

Newman was the one who clarified it for me when he distinguished between doctrine and devotion relating to Mary. A lot of the devotion arises from cultural traditions that only with difficulty can be lassoed into a semblance of Church teaching.

I have come to the conclusion that the Marian dogmas are nothing strange. I lacked them in my Baptist upbringing so I embrace her now. I used to fight the idea of Mary’s intercession and the saints, but I don’t any longer.

She has given me grace and peace in times of trouble and I am thankful to have experienced the rosary and divine mercy chaplet. I pray them regularly and have been blessed spiritually by them. Light shines through the darkness.

I used to be ahimsaman72 and you have always been a blessing to me when I began to post in 04. I lost my account because of my email address. It’s good to see you again although you probably don’t remember me. I believe God is pleased with your service to him and his mother.

Blessings to you.

Peace…

MW

 

[Singinbeauty]

I have never had a saint come to me that I could recognize. That doesn’t mean they aren’t there. You can’t normally see angels but they help us. Not a valid argument.

So how can you say that it happens? I can say that the sky can be purple during a clear day even if I have never seen it nor met anyone who has. It doesn’t mean it’s true.

You need to read more of the Bible. In Exodus 32 God was angry because of the golden calf incident. Moses pleaded with God to not destroy his people. Then in verse 14 we read:

“Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.[NIV]”

I guess God does change his mind because of the prayers of his people.

Didn’t say He changed His mind… He relented making thing less than what they could be. God was angry but did He already decide He would destroy them? No. He knew there was much to come from the Jewish race. Why would He destroy that? You are tending to try to make God to human.

You believe in Calvin’s twisted theology that God predestines everything and there’s not a thing you can do about it. You are predestined to Hell or Heaven and everything in between. That leaves no room for freewill.

I have never read anything of Calvin. Thanx for calling me twisted. I actually take it as a compliment because with the way you address me I wouldn’t want to think like you. God DOESN’T (I will repeat) DOESN’T predestine anything the way you state. God KNOWS what is going to happen. Doesn’t mean we don’t have the choice. He just knows what we will choose. He also knows what is best for me because He can see all outcomes. I may not know what a single decision can do to alter my life but HE knows. So when I pray for something He may say no because HE KNOWS what it will do to me. My God is not wishy washy… I am a mere human who cannot sway Him. I submit to HIS Holy Will…

If you believe He is faithful and big enough to answer prayers then why did you say in post#5:

Singinbeauty:

Sure, I ask for those who are with me here on earth to pray for me but this is more for me than me thinking it is going to help the situation

HE is faithful. Doesn’t mean I don’t go to someone to pray for me because I want to physically see someone care for me. I used to have a HORRIBLE self esteem. So having them go to God with me helps ME not God. I want to know that someone cares. It is a way to bond with someone to go in front of the Almighty. Whether I come on my own or with someone does not affect God’s decision because HE is faithful and can do anything. Again, I submit to HIS answer not anyone else’s.

where you clearly say that asking those who are with you on earth to pray for you is more for you than for you thinking it is going to help? Either you believe God to do something or don’t. If you don’t believe He will help the situation then you don’t have faith. You believe He is an inflexible tyrant who forces Himself on His creation. That simply isn’t true.

Where did I say that He won’t help??? I said it won’t make a difference to His decision one way or another if someone is there with me!!! WHY CAN’T YOU READ THIS… *sigh… He DOES help no matter who is there with me. He doesn’t force Himself on me or my life. He waits for me to ask before He makes the move but the help He offers won’t change if it is just me or if I have someone else there with me. God isn’t a tyrant and I have never viewed Him to be. He is the ALMIGHTY Creator and He loves me. He will never leave me nor forsake me. I love this about Him. He is the one constant in my life and I can go to Him for anything even on my own. If you don’t believe that then fine but stop trying to make my posts what they aren’t!

Continued below:

 

[Singinbeauty]

I read into what you put into it.

Obviously not because you are frustrating the heck out of me! Cheese and crackers!!!

You are the one who posted that you ask others to pray more for you than you thinking their prayers will help the situation. So, I guess you are saying it’s just you and Jesus and forget about the saints of old and the Angels that God set up to help us.

There is importance in bonding and relating to the saints of this earth. Those who have gone on before me await my arrival as well as yours. I can’t wait to talk to Mary and Peter to find out what Jesus was like on earth! Asking someone to pray for me helps with that bond. It brings us together in Christ better than anything else. I DO need them. But if it came down to Christ or the saints I would have to pick Christ. He is my everything.

I discerned your statement for what it was. It’s called using the mind that God gave us to come to logical conclusions, not judgement. I cannot judge one’s state of grace or heart. I have no embarrasment for asking you to have faith because by your post you showed a lack of it in my opinion. We are called to lift each other up and to sharpen each other in the faith. Either you accept this rebuke or not. I wash my hands.

MW

It’s not a rebuke. If it were it would be in love. Do you know me? Have we met? Are you God? You don’t know me nor my Faith so saying I don’t have one takes on an offensive tone. I say I need no one BUT God and you call that a lack of faith. If you feel you need someone else there because you alone are not enough for God to take seriously then I think you are the one with little faith! Look at Christ and the woman in John 7:36-50. It’s a good lesson to learn and I hope you learn well about judging someone else’s faith.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

SingininBeauty,

May God bless you and keep you and may you see your loved one come back very soon. I wish you well and offer my prayers for you and your loved one. May your guardian angels protect you along the way aided by Jesus and His mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Peace…

MW

 

[Pani_Rose]

I think for myself, being raised Southern Baptist, I understood it when I read a verse I had read all my life and realized that we really didn’t sit around on clouds and strum harps. That our Lord Jesus Christ has work for us to do in heaven too . The Elders were always asking our Lord. That is how I came to understand the intercession of the saints…

Rev 4:
8 The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, 8 were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.” 9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before the one who sits on the throne and worship him, who lives forever and ever. They throw down their crowns before the throne, exclaiming: 11 “Worthy are you, Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things; because of your will they came to be and were created.”

Then Gensis 3:
15 3 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

So from the beginning her intercession was in place.

 

[St_Violet]

in regards to intercession with the saint, protestants aren’t comfortable to not pray to the saints simply because they were taught it was wrong and this is something I went through while i was protestant (was raised catholic as a kid, then decided to break from the Church then returned to it). I see no evil in asking Mary to pray for us, I have faith that the Lord will see that this act is based on good intentions with a good heart. Protestants must realize is that when our attention is on Mary, the attention is then re directed to Christ. Many have been led to Christ because of the great example Mary, Mary deserves honor even though i feel that because the fact that she just happens to be the Mother of GOD is enough for my reverence towards her, but protestants should consider the hard road she faced protecting Jesus while he was in her womb and til the day he died. I hope many protestants will learn, understand and respect our feelings an attitudes towards Mary, The most blessed Mother in History.

 

[meandean]

I decided to make this thread to clarify some issues that the Protestants seem to have a confusion.

Jesus did say, there is only One Mediator in Christ. The Catholic affirms deeply.

To truly understand this is to understand the concept of the Communion of Saints. The Communion of Saints is our unity with the Saints in Heaven, Saints in Purgatory and Saints on Earth.

I won’t go into the technical words into this but basically the Communion of Saints combines all our prayers as one to God. Just as I pray for you to pray for me, I can also ask the saints in heaven to pray in behalf for me. Death cannot separate us from the Body of Christ.

I have pray and ask saints to intercede for me and none of the prayers I have said never ignore God himself.

If you been to a Litany of the Saints during Easter Vigil you here these words,

St. Peter and St. Paul, pray for us.

St. Andrew and St. James, pray for us.

Intercession prayer to the saints is not the same as worshiping God. When you put God out of the context when praying to a saint then you are committing idol worship.

The Catholic Church does not teach us to worship saints above God.

I hope this would clarify any confusion which many of you Protestant have about the Catholic Church or the E. Orthodox Church prayer to the saints.

 

[meandean]

in regards to intercession with the saint, protestants aren’t comfortable to not pray to the saints simply because they were taught it was wrong and this is something I went through while i was protestant (was raised catholic as a kid, then decided to break from the Church then returned to it). I see no evil in asking Mary to pray for us, I have faith that the Lord will see that this act is based on good intentions with a good heart. Protestants must realize is that when our attention is on Mary, the attention is then re directed to Christ. Many have been led to Christ because of the great example Mary, Mary deserves honor even though i feel that because the fact that she just happens to be the Mother of GOD is enough for my reverence towards her, but protestants should consider the hard road she faced protecting Jesus while he was in her womb and til the day he died. I hope many protestants will learn, understand and respect our feelings an attitudes towards Mary, The most blessed Mother in History.

wasn’t jesus asked"Lord, teach us to pray. and didn’t He start by saying our FATHER who art in heaven"? just a little info in passing.

 

[Mannyfit75]

wasn’t jesus asked"Lord, teach us to pray. and didn’t He start by saying our FATHER who art in heaven"? just a little info in passing.

Yes he did. Didn’t Paul say that is pleases the Lord for us to intercede for one another. Didn’t the angels offers prayers of the saints in the Book or Revelations.

All Christians living or dead in this together…in this long fight against the evil one,

 

[Singinbeauty]

Yes he did. Didn’t Paul say that is pleases the Lord for us to intercede for one another. Didn’t the angels offers prayers of the saints in the Book or Revelations.

All Christians living or dead in this together…in this long fight against the evil one,

But WHO was Paul talking to? Was he addressing those here on earth AND in Heaven?

The angels did offer the prayers but look at it… the ANGELS offered the prayers. Not the saints directly. I guess I do believe that the saints in Heaven pray for what is going on down here but I don’t believe that we, on earth, can address THEM. Nor do they us.

 

[Mannyfit75]

But WHO was Paul talking to? Was he addressing those here on earth AND in Heaven?

The angels did offer the prayers but look at it… the ANGELS offered the prayers. Not the saints directly. I guess I do believe that the saints in Heaven pray for what is going on down here but I don’t believe that we, on earth, can address THEM. Nor do they us.

I beg to differ.

Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.