Interested in the Church, but cannot accept some of their beliefs

[SurlyMermaid]

I had the same reservations. I’m with the other posters in advising doing some RCIA. Take it one step at a time. Pray. God will do the rest.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

The Church is very careful about this and is in line with St Paul who admonished the Corinthians in the matter of “receiving worthily” and with “proper discernment” of the body and blood lest they eat and drink “judgement on themselves”.
Being raised Baptist, you were probably taught that the “Lords Supper” is symbolic. That the bread and wine are just bread and wine. Bring that belief into a Catholic Church and try to receive and you are receiving “unworthily”. You have not properly discerned the Body and Blood.
For this reason - that is to protect those who do not understand - the Church holds to a closed communion. It is out of Love that she does so.

This is actually addressed in the Catechism. See HERE
Of course this passage must not be taken in isolation. One needs to see this in the context of “proper formation of the conscience” and all the other teachings contained in the Catechism.

Peace
James

Beautiful, informative post, James.:knight1::knight2: Much appreciated. The links and quotes are so helpful to all of us so that when we explain this to those not yet in Communion with us, they can see that it is out of love that we wish everyone to discern the beauty and majesty of Christ’s sacrifice. The Blessed Sacrament is truly His Body and Blood, no mere symbol, and so it is vitally important to understand and discern the full meaning.
Blessings,
Kathryn Ann:heaven::angel1:

 

[NeedingTruth]

Sorry for taking so long to reply back on this thread. I wanted to thank everyone for their honest and informative responses. I will take these answers into account as I consider whether or not to try out RCIA.

 

[snarflemike]

Sorry for taking so long to reply back on this thread. I wanted to thank everyone for their honest and informative responses. I will take these answers into account as I consider whether or not to try out RCIA.

I didn’t see your thread when it originally appeared, but let me offer this perspective.

If Jesus Christ came to you and told you that the Catholic position was correct in each of your areas of objection, would you accept those positions? I’m sure you would!

So, if the Catholic Church is really the body of Christ, which Christ as the head, and is guided by the Holy Spirit, and if all that she looses on earth is loosened in heaven, and all that she binds on earth is bound in heaven (which is a guarantee of freedom from error in opposition to God’s will), then you do have the situation where Jesus himself is telling you, through his Church, that these positions are correct.

So what you need to discern is whether the Catholic Church is what she claims to be, and if so, she is indeed speaking for God, and you can accept her teachings knowing that they are God’s teachings.

 

[Izdaari]

The Catholic Church has been a topic of fascination for me for some time now. I have studied their doctrines, and I have been interested in converting at various times (I was raised Southern Baptist, FYI), and keep coming back to that interest no matter how hard I try to push it away. I am fascinated by the tradition, the ritual, the crucifixes, the statues, the rosary, you name it. However, there are a few doctrines I am having trouble with.

I cannot and most likely will never accept papal infallibility (and yes, I know infallibility is not the same as impeccability). I would accept the pope as the leader of the Church, but would not blindly follow everything he says.

I see nothing wrong with birth control, as long as no abortion is involved. I am mostly against abortion, but believe it may be a necessary evil in a some cases (e.g. mother’s life in danger).

I believe the church should allow priests to marry, and ordain women as well. I also believe communion should be offered to all baptized Christians and not just Catholics.

In short, I am more likely to follow the dictates of my conscience than those of Rome, in the cases where they conflict. My beliefs would probably not be too dissimilar from those of Hans Kung. I apologize if this offends anyone, but I am trying to be honest.

From what I’ve read, I would fit right in with a sizable majority of American Catholics, but then again most of them grew up in it, as opposed to converting.

I am not interested in debating or arguing with anyone regarding the topics I mentioned. What I want to know is this: Would you advise that I enroll in RCIA and seek conversion anyways? Or would you tell me to go find another church (perhaps Episcopalian)?

Another way to phrase the question: Which would be the greater sin, to convert without total acceptance, or to never convert at all?

Thanks for any advice you can give!

You sound like an Anglican to me. That’s not an insult at all, I am one too. And that’s the church I would recommend for you because it matches what you believe with no need to accept things you don’t. There are many Anglo-Catholic parishes, if that’s what suits you. My Episcopal parish fits that description.

And yeah, I suppose I could be a Hans Küng/Garry Wills kind of Catholic, and I guess I would be if the RCC were the only Christian church around. But that’s the only kind of Catholic I could be, and the Church doesn’t seem to like them very much.

 

[PRmerger]

You sound like an Anglican to me. That’s not an insult at all, I am one too. And that’s the church I would recommend for you because it matches what you believe with no need to accept things you don’t. There are many Anglo-Catholic parishes, if that’s what suits you. My Episcopal parish fits that description.

This is, IMHO, the exact wrong paradigm to use when discerning a religion.

Finding the church that “matches what you believe” is, well, creating a god in one’s own image, don’t you think?

Rather, don’t you think the correct paradigm is: find the Church that Christ established, and then conform your views to Christ’s.

For it stands to reason that Christ’s views on everything are NOT going to be the same as yours.

And if you’re in a church that conforms to everything that suits you, then you’ve just made up a church.

In fact, i proffer that if you’re NOT in a church that doesn’t call you to change your position on something then you’re not in the church that Christ established.

 

[Izdaari]

This is, IMHO, the exact wrong paradigm to use when discerning a religion.

Finding the church that “matches what you believe” is, well, creating a god in one’s own image, don’t you think?

Rather, don’t you think the correct paradigm is: find the Church that Christ established, and then conform your views to Christ’s.

For it stands to reason that Christ’s views on everything are NOT going to be the same as yours.

And if you’re in a church that conforms to everything that suits you, then you’ve just made up a church.

In fact, i proffer that if you’re NOT in a church that doesn’t call you to change your position on something then you’re not in the church that Christ established.

Those are fair points, but I think some of our disagreement is just semantics. I don’t choose my beliefs in order to be comfortable, but they’re what I honestly believe to be the truth, based on a considerable amount of study of theology, scripture and church history. Some of my positions have shifted as a result of that, and sometimes in a way that was contrary to my preference. If I honestly believed the Catholic Church was the Church that Christ established, I would ‘bite the bullet’ and go with it even though that wouldn’t be particularly comfortable either for me or for the Church… but I don’t believe that. And as I said, the Hans Küng/Garry Wills kind of Catholic is the only kind I could be… and do you really want more of those?

 

[PRmerger]

Some of my positions have shifted as a result of that, and sometimes in a way that was contrary to my preference

I respect that. Would you be willing to share some of these positions that have shifted, as a result of your conforming your views to Christ’s, rather than what would have been your preference?

 

[Contarini]

I cannot and most likely will never accept papal infallibility (and yes, I know infallibility is not the same as impeccability). I would accept the pope as the leader of the Church, but would not blindly follow everything he says.

But that’s not what infallibility means. Infallibility means that under certain circumstances (pretty rare in fact) the Pope will be protected from leading the Church into error. It’s true that as Anna points out, the official Catholic position (expressed in Vatican documents) is that Catholics are to submit mind and will to all sorts of teachings even if those teachings aren’t formally infallible. But even that is more complex than many conservative Catholics make it sound, because the Catholic Church also teaches that you should follow your conscience. (I’ve opened a can of worms by saying this, and I will now be told that I’m misinterpreting Catholicism. But this is a very conservative forum–there’s a lot more diversity among Catholics than this forum would indicate.) I would argue that in Catholicism there is a healthy tension between following your own conscience and submitting to the Church. You don’t simply override your own conscience and judgment, but neither do you thumb your nose at the Church on the assumption that your own views are infallible (which in practice seems to be what most Protestants and many liberal Catholics think).

I see nothing wrong with birth control, as long as no abortion is involved. I am mostly against abortion, but believe it may be a necessary evil in a some cases (e.g. mother’s life in danger).

These are two separate issues. The Catholic Church doesn’t accept the idea of “necessary evil,” if “evil” is understood in a moral sense. (Obviously “an evil” may just be “something unpleasant,” like inflicting pain–it’s not morally evil to give someone an injection even if the injection causes pain, which is an “evil” in a non-moral sense.) And deliberately taking innocent human life is always morally evil. However, the Catholic Church does teach the “principle of double effect,” which means that if you are not intending the evil result (and if you have made every effort to avoid it), then you may not be morally responsible for it. Some cases of abortion to save a mother’s life would fall under this category, although just how to apply the principle seems to be yet another of those many subjects on which Catholics are not agreed!

As for non-abortifacient birth control, the reason the Catholic Church opposes it is that it regards sexuality as something that shouldn’t be separated from procreation. Procreation must be “open to life.” I would agree with you that the strict way in which the Catholic Church applies this is open to question (and again, in practice many Catholics question it, though the folks on this forum may try to persuade you that such people “aren’t really Catholic”). However, I think that if you simply dismiss the moral case against artificial birth control you’re missing out on one of the more profound and countercultural insights of the Catholic tradition. There is something wrong with how our culture views sexuality, and it has something to do with the way sexuality has been separated from procreation and made an end in itself. So I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that the Catholic Church’s strict position is in fact correct. Perhaps you and I have been so influenced by our culture that we aren’t capable of judging the matter correctly.

I know you say you don’t want to argue these things, but that’s essentially saying you’ve made up your mind beforehand. And whatever is compatible with becoming Catholic, saying “no way am I even open to hearing why the Church teaches this” certainly isn’t.

 

[po18guy]

This is exactly why our Lord stated “If a man would follow me, he must first deny himself, take up his cross, then come, follow me” (Matthew 16:24, Luke 9:23)

It is this denial of the self that is our stumbling block. Our ego trips us at our first step. Our desires cloud our vision and judgment. Our preferences lead us astray. We choose comfort over truth.

How can someone who believes that God created everything from nothing have difficulty believing that He could empower a Church to lead without error? Failure to deny the self.

This reflects on us - and not on God or His Church.

 

[tarboy]

Needing Truth
I empathize with you on many points. Hitting just one, I like to think that Catholics are following the Pope, but it’s not blindly.

To your question, Yes I think you should attend RCIA.
When pursued with diligence and prayer, you can find the answers you need.

What I want to know is this: Would you advise that I enroll in RCIA and seek conversion anyways? Or would you tell me to go find another church (perhaps Episcopalian)?

Another way to phrase the question: Which would be the greater sin, to convert without total acceptance, or to never convert at all?

Thanks for any advice you can give!

 

[po18guy]

Another way to phrase the question: Which would be the greater sin, to convert without total acceptance, or to never convert at all?

Better (although not much) to remain in ignorance of the truth than to choose to disregard part of it. Read Luke 12:47-48 to see how it applies to your situation. The Holy Spirit is calling you to conversion of your heart. The only pain is that of resistance.

I think you would benefit from reading the conversion stories of those who were in your shoes: Surprised by Truth and Surprised by Truth 2 both written by Patrick Madrid.

 

[Izdaari]

How can someone who believes that God created everything from nothing have difficulty believing that He could empower a Church to lead without error? Failure to deny the self.

I don’t disbelieve that He could do that. Just as with Creation, certainly God has the power. I disbelieve that He did do that in the case of the Catholic Church… which I accept as a valid Christian church, but not as*** the*** valid Christian church.

 

[po18guy]

I don’t disbelieve that He could do that. Just as with Creation, certainly God has the power. I disbelieve that He did do that in the case of the Catholic Church… which I accept as a valid Christian church, but not as*** the*** valid Christian church.

You are revealing that you still hold to personal preferences in your beliefs. I do not see this as a denial of the self. Are you not in a state of perpetual seeking then? How can one know when one has found the fulness of truth? Is it the Church that is most comfortable? Least comfortable? Somewhere in the middle?

We do not live long enough to investigate the thousands of denominations, and God does not make His revealed truth difficult to find - only difficult to accept. And, we see from that the motivation for this thread.

 

[Nicea325]

I don’t disbelieve that He could do that. Just as with Creation, certainly God has the power. I disbelieve that He did do that in the case of the Catholic Church… which I accept as a valid Christian church, but not as*** the*** valid Christian church.

Then where is “the” church Christ founded? Certainly cannot be all of the thousands in existence out there? So Christ church by unknown causes and reasons sort of vanished?

 

[SilverCamellia]

To the OP:

For now, I’d suggest reading up about Catholic beliefs through websites, books on Catholicism, etc, and finding out why those beliefs exist (there is always a reason).

I’d pray to God to lead you in the right direction for you, and to help you find out if Catholicism is right for you,

Contact your local priest and ask to enrol in RCIA. Start going to Sunday Mass (although you can’t participate in the Eucharist). Try buying a rosary and praying it. I have found that my belief and faith in the Virgin Mary and the Saints has increased since praying it, and I now pray the rosary every day, even though it wasn’t my intention when I started.

In September I am going to start the RCIA. At the moment it is my intention to convert to Catholicism. I feel at home here, it feels ‘right’ compared to the Protestantism I was in before (Anglican). I am reading a Catholic bible, praying Catholic prayers, praying to the saints, reading about the lives of the saints. All this to me doesn’t feel out of place, although it felt unusual at first. There is the Catechism of the Catholic Church which lays out its doctrines (worth buying a copy, they are cheap secondhand). I am reading websites about Catholicism, and reading lots of threads on this website. What I have found makes me feel more and more at peace, but I am aware that in future I might find something I don’t understand or agree with. I found the veneration of Mary to make little sense until I found out why she is venerated. You need to find out what is behind the doctrines - there is always a good reason, as far as I have seen so far.

So keep an open mind and heart, and keep searching

 

[jlhargus]

The Catholic Church has been a topic of fascination for me for some time now. I have studied their doctrines, and I have been interested in converting at various times (I was raised Southern Baptist, FYI), and keep coming back to that interest no matter how hard I try to push it away. I am fascinated by the tradition, the ritual, the crucifixes, the statues, the rosary, you name it. However, there are a few doctrines I am having trouble with.

I cannot and most likely will never accept papal infallibility (and yes, I know infallibility is not the same as impeccability). I would accept the pope as the leader of the Church, but would not blindly follow everything he says.

I see nothing wrong with birth control, as long as no abortion is involved. I am mostly against abortion, but believe it may be a necessary evil in a some cases (e.g. mother’s life in danger).

I believe the church should allow priests to marry, and ordain women as well. I also believe communion should be offered to all baptized Christians and not just Catholics.

In short, I am more likely to follow the dictates of my conscience than those of Rome, in the cases where they conflict. My beliefs would probably not be too dissimilar from those of Hans Kung. I apologize if this offends anyone, but I am trying to be honest.

From what I’ve read, I would fit right in with a sizable majority of American Catholics, but then again most of them grew up in it, as opposed to converting.

I am not interested in debating or arguing with anyone regarding the topics I mentioned. What I want to know is this: Would you advise that I enroll in RCIA and seek conversion anyways? Or would you tell me to go find another church (perhaps Episcopalian)?

Another way to phrase the question: Which would be the greater sin, to convert without total acceptance, or to never convert at all? Thanks for any advice you can give!

JL: You can go to RCIA without coming into the Church. When a baptized Protestant comes into the Church they must make a profession of faith. In that profession of faith you are asked if you accept ALL the Catholic Church TEACHES. If you say yes and do not mean it you are lying to God. That is a serious mortal sin as Ananias and Sapphira found out, Acts5:1-10. You don’t have to understand every teaching. I didn’t understand every teaching but I did beleive the Catholic Church was the pillar and ground of truth, 1Tm3:15. I could accept all it taught. By the way doubting something is different than rejecting something out of hand. Talk to a priest and follow his advise. I would suggest you keep studying especially those things you find unacceptable and PRAY THE ROSARY for understanding of those teachings. Attend one of the Sunday or Saturday evening masses. I’m sure many of us will be praying for you.

There are many reasons some Catholics do not follow some teachings. Many have been poorly taught. It is estimated two generation from the 1970’s thru the 1980’s did not receive sound teaching. Some simply did not care or listen when young. It is a serious sin to have full knowledge of a teaching and deliberatly reject it.

There is a good paper back NT study bible on Amazon books for about 16.00 dollars. It has commentary and notes on about every verse by Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch. It’s called Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament. The Second Catholic Edition RSV. There is anothe Igantius Catholic Bible on Amazon make sure you get the one by Hahn and Mitch.

 

[jlhargus]

I’d pray to God to lead you in the right direction for you, and to help you find out if Catholicism is right for you,

Contact your local priest and ask to enrol in RCIA. Start going to Sunday Mass (although you can’t participate in the Eucharist). Try buying a rosary and praying it. I have found that my belief and faith in the Virgin Mary and the Saints has increased since praying it, and I now pray the rosary every day, even though it wasn’t my intention when I started.

In September I am going to start the RCIA. At the moment it is my intention to convert to Catholicism.

JL: I will add you to my list also Silver.

 

[po18guy]

To the OP:

For now, I’d suggest reading up about Catholic beliefs through websites, books on Catholicism, etc, and finding out why those beliefs exist (there is always a reason).

I’d pray to God to lead you in the right direction for you, and to help you find out if Catholicism is right for you,

Contact your local priest and ask to enrol in RCIA. Start going to Sunday Mass (although you can’t participate in the Eucharist). Try buying a rosary and praying it. I have found that my belief and faith in the Virgin Mary and the Saints has increased since praying it, and I now pray the rosary every day, even though it wasn’t my intention when I started.

In September I am going to start the RCIA. At the moment it is my intention to convert to Catholicism. I feel at home here, it feels ‘right’ compared to the Protestantism I was in before (Anglican). I am reading a Catholic bible, praying Catholic prayers, praying to the saints, reading about the lives of the saints. All this to me doesn’t feel out of place, although it felt unusual at first. There is the Catechism of the Catholic Church which lays out its doctrines (worth buying a copy, they are cheap secondhand). I am reading websites about Catholicism, and reading lots of threads on this website. What I have found makes me feel more and more at peace, but I am aware that in future I might find something I don’t understand or agree with. I found the veneration of Mary to make little sense until I found out why she is venerated. You need to find out what is behind the doctrines - there is always a good reason, as far as I have seen so far.

So keep an open mind and heart, and keep searching

Welcome! One other book that you can use as a daily resource and catechism: Catholicism for Dummies. I learn from it each time I open it.

 

[ignatius777]

The Catholic Church has been a topic of fascination for me for some time now. I have studied their doctrines, and I have been interested in converting at various times (I was raised Southern Baptist, FYI), and keep coming back to that interest no matter how hard I try to push it away. I am fascinated by the tradition, the ritual, the crucifixes, the statues, the rosary, you name it. However, there are a few doctrines I am having trouble with.

I cannot and most likely will never accept papal infallibility (and yes, I know infallibility is not the same as impeccability). I would accept the pope as the leader of the Church, but would not blindly follow everything he says.

I see nothing wrong with birth control, as long as no abortion is involved. I am mostly against abortion, but believe it may be a necessary evil in a some cases (e.g. mother’s life in danger).

I believe the church should allow priests to marry, and ordain women as well. I also believe communion should be offered to all baptized Christians and not just Catholics.

In short, I am more likely to follow the dictates of my conscience than those of Rome, in the cases where they conflict. My beliefs would probably not be too dissimilar from those of Hans Kung. I apologize if this offends anyone, but I am trying to be honest.

From what I’ve read, I would fit right in with a sizable majority of American Catholics, but then again most of them grew up in it, as opposed to converting.

I am not interested in debating or arguing with anyone regarding the topics I mentioned. What I want to know is this: Would you advise that I enroll in RCIA and seek conversion anyways? Or would you tell me to go find another church (perhaps Episcopalian)?

Another way to phrase the question: Which would be the greater sin, to convert without total acceptance, or to never convert at all?

Thanks for any advice you can give!

if you truly cant ever see yourself accepting papal infallability then move along. I mean no offense but the last thing catholicism needs is another “catholic” who wants to do things their own way. I pray you come to see the truth but until such a time as you can accept something you cannot imagine you will only be frustrated