Interfaith: a new dialogue between Muslims and Catholic

[thedarknight]

Muslims don’t believe in the Holy Trinity, and because they don’t believe that Jesus was God, combined with their emphasis on God’s transcendence, God is farther removed from human perception than in Christianity, where he has entered into human history and shown his face to us. This distance explains why the person of Muhammad while not a deity and not worshipped as such per se is so big a part of the Islamic worldview. He fills a void that is created when God withdraws from human understanding.

Thank you OP [original poster] for opening this thread and to all who is taking part in this (even for those who do not comment but read).

In order for true interfaith dialogue, we must boldy and firmly speak the truth of our beliefs – to put forth what is in darkness into light.

Thank you tomarin for emphasizing the Holy Trinity and witnessing.

 

[thedarknight]

A base wherein all religions can spark dialogue and truth is the issue of human dignity.

Would my Muslim brothers and sisters please point out passages in the Koran and Hadith wherein human dignity is presented?

 

[men0wjv]

Thanks for the posts. So much to say and so little time to say it.
First of all I just want to say my heart goes out to all the victims and their families of the absurd attacks on the Baghdad Church… absolutely appalling! ‘if anyone kills a person… it is as if he kills all mankind.’ [5:32]

He would deny the crucifixion and other points, which for me is denying recorded history

Tolerance is not acceptance and so we will hold some parts of the others faith with contempt. We cannot accept all of the others teaching since then we would become the other. It is natural that we have to come up with some sort of explanation for the other, since Islam came after Christianity, we have our main ‘explanation’ in our scripture. Perhaps it is good to be frank here. We would say that Jesus was a Prophet and not Divine, that he was perceived as crucified but in fact was not and that St Paul has hoodwinked you by deliberating propagating truth mixed with falsehood. None of that from your perspective, I’m sure, makes pleasant reading. I’m not too familiar with how the Church sees Islam perhaps someone could enlighten me? Perhaps its good to get the not so nice bit out of the way so we define our boundaries. Sorry if my brevity has cause unintentional offense.

What concerns me, though, is how Christianity spread at its beginning vs Islam’s. I a also aware that many Muslims are not aware of the Medina (war) hadiths and suras

I have read a little on the Churches early history and generally know my own. Despite the difference of state authority I see more similarities with the spread of our faiths than differences; charity being one of the chief drivers. I have to say that I am also not aware of any Medinan war , could you elaborate please.

When I speak of the 50%, I mean those of Islam who have an adversarial attitude towards Christians or at least tolerate us.

I think you guys really need to get out there and meet Muslims and you’ll find that most of them hold Christianity with respect and the remainder are just indifferent. The main concern to us all (they call everyone infidel!) is the Wahhabi or Salafi sect, they only number around 3 million, which is no where near even 1%. However it is fair to say that their petro-dollar heresy has influenced more than that, but it still is small. Lets put things into perspective please. As my teacher (a man who’s given his life to learning and teaching, now at Beirut University) was told by the media, ‘we wont document the legitimate voice of Islam because it doesn’t make good TV.’ What the media deems news worthy does not necessarily represent the reality. Remember we’re just human The good and the bad of it

I think these people – the moderates – will also be the ones to correct Islam from within.

Islam has a rich tradition of mysticism, reason and peace (yes peace!) the problems of absolute literalism and pans global political agendas are modern innovations. The problem is not within Islam, but rather without Islam. Muslims need to revive their religion and look to engage with the modern World rather than hating it and bizarrely using modern mechanisms like communism’s ‘irreconcilable conflict’ to bring about its destruction. This is a large topic and requires much knowledge of history, but I have highlighted the source of our current problem, the silver lining being that the silent overwhelming majority is starting to jihad (group struggle) against the terrorists and those that have hijacked our religion.

 

[thedarknight]

Perhaps it is good to be frank here.

In true interfaith dialogue, frankness and sincerity is very much appreciated:thumbsup:

 

[thedarknight]

…the problems of absolute literalism…are modern innovations.]

I must disagree with you. Perhaps we need to define what “modern innovation” is.

Absolute literalism became prevalent in Islam in the 11th century when Mut’azilites [viewed the Koran and Hadith can be interpreted with reason] were banished for the Ash’arite school [literalist view of Koran and Hadith], to this modern day.

 

[men0wjv]

I must disagree with you. Perhaps we need to define what “modern innovation” is.
Absolute literalism became prevalent in Islam in the 11th century when Mut’azilites [viewed the Koran and Hadith can be interpreted with reason] were banished for the Ash’arite school [literalist view of Koran and Hadith], to this modern day.

A lot to say, but in the time…
Orthodoxy (which is now basically known as Ashari) disputed theologically with the Mu’tezalites for much longer than since the 11th century, in fact by them they were pretty much obsolete. Orthodoxy did not use absolute literalism - although admittedly they were more closer to the outward meaning of the text - but rather ‘faith and reason;’ faith in viewing the Qur’an as direct revelation and Sunnah as indirect revelation and reason to understand their meaning. Rather than going into the details, as they are quite complex and require specialist knowledge, perhaps the following may elaborate. Absolute reason dictates the Universe is infinitely beginning-less (see Aristotle). Absolute literalism dictates it took 6 periods of 24 hours (we both have that). The middle way uses the text of six days, but asks the logical question, how long is a day when no Sun or Earth exist? So the word day cannot be logically understood to mean 24 hours (actually some of our earliest scholars gave a figure of 1000 years, but this is somewhat figurative to suggest a massive amount of time). This rather hasty example maybe elaborates that one can keep to the text and still be reasonable rather than interpreting everything allegorically or metaphorically - although they are sometimes used of course.
The modern age has brought about the attention away from the Divine and instead to the World, moving away from form and meaning to instead just form, denying mysticism and the ontological meaning of knowledge of the past, turning from deference to independence. As such we get those today who ignore tradition and the ulama who preserve this religion in their hearts and instead independently interpret the source texts anew relative to modern ideologies or norms, which as we have seen, with disastrous consequences. Ideas like ‘the ends justify the means,’ which is an aberration in Islamic thought because everything is sacred; the Prophet when offered riches to subdue his preaching rejected it even if they had given him the sun in his right hand and moon in his left. As Muslims we make God our only concern and he takes care of the rest
I hope the above helps a little, gotta dash

 

[thedarknight]

A lot to say, but in the time…
Orthodoxy (which is now basically known as Ashari) disputed theologically with the Mu’tezalites for much longer than since the 11th century, in fact by them they were pretty much obsolete. Orthodoxy did not use absolute literalism - although admittedly they were more closer to the outward meaning of the text - but rather ‘faith and reason;’ faith in viewing the Qur’an as direct revelation and Sunnah as indirect revelation and reason to understand their meaning. Rather than going into the details, as they are quite complex and require specialist knowledge, perhaps the following may elaborate. Absolute reason dictates the Universe is infinitely beginning-less (see Aristotle). Absolute literalism dictates it took 6 periods of 24 hours (we both have that). The middle way uses the text of six days, but asks the logical question, how long is a day when no Sun or Earth exist? So the word day cannot be logically understood to mean 24 hours (actually some of our earliest scholars gave a figure of 1000 years, but this is somewhat figurative to suggest a massive amount of time). This rather hasty example maybe elaborates that one can keep to the text and still be reasonable rather than interpreting everything allegorically or metaphorically - although they are sometimes used of course.
The modern age has brought about the attention away from the Divine and instead to the World, moving away from form and meaning to instead just form, denying mysticism and the ontological meaning of knowledge of the past, turning from deference to independence. As such we get those today who ignore tradition and the ulama who preserve this religion in their hearts and instead independently interpret the source texts anew relative to modern ideologies or norms, which as we have seen, with disastrous consequences. Ideas like ‘the ends justify the means,’ which is an aberration in Islamic thought because everything is sacred; the Prophet when offered riches to subdue his preaching rejected it even if they had given him the sun in his right hand and moon in his left. As Muslims we make God our only concern and he takes care of the rest
I hope the above helps a little, gotta dash

Thank you brother, for answering. I disagree with some of your points, alas, we all have limited time. I will reply soon and state my disagreements.

However, I am more interested in the question I posed earlier, that perhaps, will be brought into light:

A base wherein all religions can spark dialogue and truth is the issue of human dignity.

Would my Muslim brothers and sisters please point out passages in the Koran and Hadith wherein human dignity is presented?

God Bless!

 

[men0wjv]

Thanks for the post and God bless you too

I am more interested in the question I posed earlier, that perhaps, will be brought into light

In terms of human dignity, the following spring to mind. Hope that’s what you meant

Mankind honoured
[17:70] We have honoured the children of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favours, above a great part of our creation.
[64:3] He has created the heavens and the earth in just proportions, and has given you shape, and made your shapes beautiful: and to Him is the final Goal

Intellect crowning glory
[2:31] And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: “Tell me the nature of these if ye are right.”

Equality of sexes
[16:97] Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions

Intimacy of man with God and superiority above angels
[38:72] “When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.”

Mankind are all brethren
[4:1] O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence God, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for God ever watches over you.
“O people! Your Creator is one; you are from the same ancestor; all of you are from Adam, and Adam was created from earth.” [Muslim]

Relations with all people
[60:8] God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.
“People are God‟s children and those dearest to God are the one‟s who treat His children kindly.” [Tabrizi]
One day the Prophet was sitting with his companions in Madinah when a funeral procession passed by. The Prophet stood up. His Companions pointed out that it was the funeral of a Jew, that is, a non-Muslim. The Prophet replied: ‘Was he not a human being?’ (Fathul Bari, 3/214)

Respect for Christianity
A deputation of Christians from Najran … When the delegation arrived in Medina they entered the mosque while the apostle was holding his afternoon prayers. When the time arrived for their own prayers they stood up in the mosque of the apostle and made their devotions; and the apostle of Allah said, ‘It is permitted.’ And they prayed with their faces towards the east.

Hope that helps

 

[KathleenGee]

Men0…

What country do you live in???\

I read a passage from the Koran given an American living in Turkey. It drew on tolerance, but then when it got to the polytheists – how Muslims view us --, then it said they would be condemned to hell…there was another reference elsewhere about Trinitarians.

I have read that others added to the writings of Mohammed after his death. But the other issue I have with the Prophet is, incontrast to Christ, he spent his last year fighting. The setting of his death seemed to bear fruit to the choice of fighting vs dialogue and conflict resolution. There was apparent contention surrounding him at his time of dying, and he was unable to utter any last words.

Christ’s last words were, “Father, forgive them, they do not know what they do…It is finished.”

It is a common problem for a human being to want to fight back. Christ exhorts us to meekness and letting others take from us. We Christians are to endure and promote mercy in this life, and expect justice in the next. In the MIddle East, they have people there who are continually fighting for thousands of years.

We cannot resolve such problems. We live in an entirely different world, although we are the same human beings. The moderate Muslims need to teach forgiveness and faith and cooperation of mutual rights, as well as study the history of the Jews and Christians to see their rights.

 

[men0wjv]

Men0…
What country do you live in???

Why the same place as great men like St Thomas Moore and William Wilburforce I hope I can live up to there fine example

I read a passage from the Koran given an American living in Turkey. It drew on tolerance, but then when it got to the polytheists – how Muslims view us --, then it said they would be condemned to hell…there was another reference elsewhere about Trinitarians.

Its not true that we call you mushrikin (polytheists) we call you Nasra (Christian) or the umbrella term ahul kitab (people of the book). There is a clear distinction made and you guys are honored by this. It is one of the fallacies of the ignorant and the modern age to confuse terms especially the general to the specific, for the Qur’an clearly states not all peoples are a homogeneous group and may contain different beliefs among them. Admittedly there is an appalling translation by Muhsin Khan and another chap which has deliberately tried to lump all members not of their Salafi sect together… I suggest Oxford University’s publication by Abdel Haleem; all the academics use it.
There is mention of the ‘Trinity’ being an incorrect belief, which like I said before is an ‘explanation.’ This of course, will not make pleasant reading for you guys, but that is where we irreconcilably differ and so will have to tolerate ‘you have your religion and I have mine’ [109:6]

I have read that others added to the writings of Mohammed after his death. But the other issue I have with the Prophet is, in contrast to Christ, he spent his last year fighting. The setting of his death seemed to bear fruit to the choice of fighting vs dialogue and conflict resolution

I think one main problem for the objective person to compare Jesus and Muhammed (peace be upon both of them) is that their circumstances differ. It is fair to say that Jesus (pbuh) was not a head of state (ie a recognised government of a tribe or nation) nor was he in a recognised war. Without looking at the ‘rights’ and ‘wrongs’ it is fair to say that they will differ by necessity.
You may say Christianity preaches ‘turning the other cheek’ whilst Islam favours ‘an eye for an eye,’ but that is somewhat misrepresentative. For Islam does teach turning of the cheek in private matters (similar to Jesus’ situation), but punishment of equal measure for crimes publicly (not similar to Jesus’ situation). The following statement by Muhammad (pbuh) when head of state may elaborate: ‘Pardon the [crimes which necessitate] the capital/corporal punishments, for whatever [crime requiring] a capital/corporal punishment reaches me, then it is obligatory [to discharge the punishment].’ [Abu Dawud]
It seems to be forgotten that Muhammad (pbuh) did not start the war and that he preached for 13 years to his fellow Mekkans without so much as lifting a finger, despite Muslims being tortured and killed. It was only when he was head of state that he acted with aggression because he had the right to; you cannot reason with someone who is coming at you with a sword indiscriminately killing your people, in fact to sit back and let it happen would be an enormity. Whilst we may still differ over his methods, it can’t be said that they weren’t without cause, nor that he was unjust; when he finally took Mekkah he didn’t spill one drop of blood and even gave ‘war booty’ and positions in government to Mekkans! Much more like reconciliation than retribution.

There was apparent contention surrounding him at his time of dying, and he was unable to utter any last words.
Christ’s last words were, “Father, forgive them, they do not know what they do…It is finished.”

Don’t know where you got this He audibly said to the people present ‘the prayer, the prayer’ to remind them of its significance and then quietly said ‘There is no god, but God and with death comes affliction’ then he raised his hand and began to say ‘the heavenly companion…’ showing the importance of faith, that he was a human and that he chose to be with the righteous… it is well known.

In the MIddle East, they have people there who are continually fighting for thousands of years.

Hmm… maybe this is a little unfair, whilst there has been fighting it should be contextualised; my continent [Europe] has seen more killing in the last hundred years than all other killings in the whole of human history. Re-read history and you’ll find that more wars in the last 500 years have come from Europe and North America than anywhere else.

… we are the same human beings. The moderate Muslims need to teach forgiveness and faith and cooperation of mutual rights, as well as study the history of the Jews and Christians to see their rights.

I agree completely

 

[Eric_Hyom]

One thing is for sure, the same God who created me, and gave me a Catholic faith, also created others, and gave them a faith through Islam.

We are all very special to God, so we should also be special to each other

Blessings

Eric

 

[swariffin]

I agree completely

Sorry, to cut it short. I think you are an open minded Muslim. According to you, privately as a Muslim with respect to whatever background you come from (not based on Islamic believe you hear from others), do you think the Trinity concept of the Christian is Musyrik/Polytheist?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

hello swariffin;

Sorry, to cut it short. I think you are an open minded Muslim. According to you, privately as a Muslim with respect to whatever background you come from (not based on Islamic believe you hear from others), do you think the Trinity concept of the Christian is Musyrik/Polytheist?

I believe menOwjv started this thread with a very positive agenda, and is striving to find ways of working together for social justice, despite all our differences.

We have our differences in beliefs, but should these beliefs stand in the path of striving towards justice for all people?

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship and understanding.

Eric

 

[Eccela]

As Christ said “I come to divide” this does not leave room for all those who know so little of thier faith that they forget some key scriptures concerning “I am the way, the Truth and the Light, no one comes to the Father except through Me”. I have always wondered how anyone can mistake this for any other way to the Father, unless of course you don’t believe Christ is who He said He is. Since this is a Catholic dogma and a Catholic webb site what is the real question? This does not mean you do not also have to live as close to Christ as possible and hate is never an option, by example you will bring more to Him.
I love the saying “preach the gospel all the time and sometimes even use words”.

 

[KathleenGee]

Choudary…read more about him today…he is in England…

Why they allow this man to do what he is doing…he is now recruiting American Muslims to join jihad. He says most American Muslims secretly want Sharia…

I remember seeing a moderate Muslim imam confront some radical imams in Great Britain and tell them ‘to their faces’ that what they uphold is actually a sickness.

We also now have so many Muslims coming into the country since 9/11.

We need alot more dialogue with them without the secrets.

 

[men0wjv]

Choudary…read more about him today…he is in England…
Why they allow this man to do what he is doing…he is now recruiting American Muslims to join jihad. He says most American Muslims secretly want Sharia…

I know a little about him. He had most of his training from the Al Muhajiroon sect (a small heretical group led by Omar Bakri Muhammad). He has perverse and dangerous ideas. Im my country we believe in freedom of speach so he can pretty much do as he pleases providing he doesn’t physically do anything, there were some more recent laws passed not to incite hatred, but he’s probably clever enough to avoid that in public - unfortunately. Personally I think that Britain should apoint a Grand Mufti (Just like we have a Cheif Rabbi and Archbishop both RC and Anglican) and should give him some powers that can be followed up by a court of law, especially that of declaring individuals as militant heretics. The most we can do (and do) is highlight him for the charlatan that he is.
All Muslims want the Shariah since its a fundamental part of our religion, why is that a problem? Just in the same way Orthodox Jews want to see the Halakha implemented. In Britain the law does not recognise Islamic marriage contracts, which is problematic and of course can lead to injustices, because no law has meaning unless it is policed.

I remember seeing a moderate Muslim imam confront some radical imams in Great Britain and tell them ‘to their faces’ that what they uphold is actually a sickness.

Muhammad (pbuh) said: ‘The greatest jihad is to speak the word of truth to a tyrant’

We also now have so many Muslims coming into the country since 9/11.
We need alot more dialogue with them without the secrets.

Why is it a problem for Muslims to goto the US??? Interestingly the FBI published some data that stated terrorism worldwide by Islamic militants was 0.4%, lets put things into perspective. The Muslims that goto the US want a better life and normally are educated to a high level - a very large proportion of doctors - so isn’t it good to get a highly skilled workforce?
What secrets??? The same that Dan Brown accuses the Catholic Church of? We live in an age where an undefined ‘they’ are blamed for things and where outrageous and unfound ‘conspiracies’ are put forward for even the most simple things. Come one lets be serious. There are people, in public, that hide their personal beliefs every where, Muslims are in no way special in this regard. Islam is easily studyable, just as Catholicism all I ask is just read a reliable book, not one printed to make money in this media hyped climate.
I’m quite happy to enter into honest and trusting dialogue

 

[men0wjv]

Sorry, to cut it short. I think you are an open minded Muslim. According to you, privately as a Muslim with respect to whatever background you come from (not based on Islamic believe you hear from others), do you think the Trinity concept of the Christian is Musyrik/Polytheist?

? Thought I answered this and I’m not sure why you are asking this?

Islam has certain definitions about God. We view God as both Transcendent and Immanent. He is ultimately Transcendent, but is Immanent contingently, since the universe is contingent. We know God through His attributes, which can be said to be anologus to our own attributes. For example we are merciful and God is Merciful, but we make the distinction that God’s Mercy is not our mercy +, but is of an entirely different category that we cannot know through our minds, but comprehend in our hearts. We may be able to see from this that we have no need of ‘the Son’ or ‘Holy Spirity’ in our theology. In fact to have such ideas would go against our understanding of God’s Oneness.

You worship One God based on your understanding, but this would not be classified as One God in our understanding. So if we take Islam’s understanding to be true - that Jesus was fully man only (elevated as He was) - then to worship Him as God in the understanding of a Trinity would be idolatory however we were to justify it. This is why the definitions in our scripture of the Trinity differ with yours because it is looking at the reality of it’s case (from our perspective of what that is, of course). Also it should be noted that Islam did not come to detail the finer points of Christian theology, but to highlight what is problematic relative to Islam. This is why statements only focus on certain aspects. In addition, scripture is clear that you are not ‘all alike’ and so any mention of Christians should be prefixed with ‘some’ (as commentators have understood them) because it is clear that Roman Catholics and most other modern denominations do not worship Mary as a God, for example. If its any consolation Ahul Sunnah wal Jamat (i.e. the Muslims) get called infidel by the Salafis for praying for intercession too

 

[men0wjv]

As Christ said “I come to divide” this does not leave room for all those who know so little of thier faith that they forget some key scriptures concerning “I am the way, the Truth and the Light, no one comes to the Father except through Me”…

Not really sure what you are trying to say? If you mean God is right then we all agree, if you mean my religion is right then I disagree just as if I say my religion is right then you disagree… Only God knows all, we just try our best…

CCC 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
hmmm maybe you need to talk to the Pope?

PS: I do appreciate the subtelty of the wording i.e. its not indiscriminatingly saying all Muslims are saved by virtue of Islam, since that would then by definition make a mockery of the Churches position of ‘a necessary means of salvation’

 

[KathleenGee]

men9wjv and Jharek,

Thanks for responding. We read articles saying that Great Britain and Pakistan are the great hotbeds to make terrorists. Choudary comes up all the time on TV.

I also saw a video of bobbies being cornered in Nottingham by a group of Muslim men, intimidating them into a corner.

The American Constitution represents our way of governing. Public American values are Judeo-Christian, we having the tablets of the 10 commandments and Moses represented on buildings in Washington, DC. What you see demonstrating are middle class Americans fed up being used for far left or corrupt decisions being imposed on us while the rich and powerful have little contact with the day to day consequences.

The financial issues of our country go back to incorporating the international banking system. Before that, our country essentially kept to itself. There is talk now of even getting rid of it, because what it did was turn us into a consumerist and entitlement society.

Why my remark about the sudden appearance of Muslims in our country after 9/11? Because all that we were seeing in the Muslim world was hatred towards our country. Then people began reading its history…and we saw 9/11 as a conquest symbol…certainly it was. And a number of Muslims coming are demanding rights through lawsuits. It is causing more suspicion. And especially because those demanding such rights are refusing non-Muslims the same rights in the countries of their origins.

When our country is reduced to a place to make money and demand rights through lawsuits…it is also reflecting on the entitlement mentality that has rose consequently in the last 40 years.

When you immigrate to a country, you do so because there are aspects to it that make it attractive to you. Our constitution is protecting Muslims. Sharia does not protect us.

You cannot go into a country, reap its benefits and then want to change our system of law.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jharek,

Can see that…but you also have to take into account the experiences the main public is dealing with…and that nobody has filed lawsuits for the imposition of their culture as the CAIR Muslims have.

For example, DisneyLand is a theme park. Workers dress up in certain themes. A foreign born Muslim woman was hired, read the entire contract and agreed to it. Two laters later she became a US citizen. Then she sued, renigating on her contract so she could wear a head scarf.

We have not seen or are publicly aware of a class of immigrants, and it is especially disconcerting because it is happening after 9/11. Or 80% of the Muslim accusations against Americans were proven false by the FBI. The continual one-sided imposition is not going well with our people. We oppose the consumerist/entitlement society, and people are fighting across the country through voting to return to re-unifying our country.

The Holy Father himself states that we are to be compassionate to the immigrants and Americans generally are. But he also says newcomers need to respect the host country and integrate…not come in and oppose Sharia.

The problem is the deliberate imposition of a long standing propaganda war against religion and traditional Judeo-Christian morality to the point that we are greatly marginalized that has nothing to do with the governing and implementation of US Constitution.