'Invincible ignorance' inquires

[glenconnor]

Truthseeker and Bengoshi–

In short, because we as Catholics believe in Sacred Scripture and Tradition. A good bible quote for this would be:
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (John 21:25).

That being said, I give you this example (Matthew 25:31-46) to give you a different perspective on salvation.

31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,

43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Thus I do not see that the CCC contradicts the Bible. It is plain here (at least from my perspective) that Jesus is also looking at our hearts. He knows if our hearts are with God or with this fallen world.

I want to make sure that you know I am not disparaging your beliefs. I am, to the best of my ability and knowledge sharing the Catholic stance on these matters. I did consult with my priest at RCIA on this matter, and he is the one that pointed out Matthew 25:31-46 to me.

 

[glenconnor]

God Bless you glenconnor!
Welcome to The Catholic Church. You are right to trust in God’s Mercy - this is central to the Divine Mercy Devotion as revealed by St. Faustina that you might want to look into if you have not yet done so.

St. Peter repented when he rejected Christ and trusted that some how Christ would give Him the opportunity to repent and tell Jesus to his face that he loved Him and be forgiven ( John 21). This is what sacramental confession is all about. Whereas Judas sinned but then despaired that his sin was greater than God’s Mercy (a blasphemy in itself) and killed himself as an unforgivable. Is is only those who so despair and who do not trust and who fail to sincerely repent from the heart who will perish.

James

Thank you for those very good points. I have made a small study of the Divine Mercy and have prayed the novena once so far. It helps me to remember to trust in the Mercy of God.

I am glad to be formally entering the Church 3 April (I was baptized when I was six months old but that was as far I got with religion until last year). I am just sorry that I lost so many years when everything I ever wanted in this life and more was with Him all along. I have so much to learn, and that to me means that the best is yet to come.

 

[Bengoshi]

Truthseeker and Bengoshi–

In short, because we as Catholics believe in Sacred Scripture and Tradition. A good bible quote for this would be:
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (John 21:25).

That being said, I give you this example (Matthew 25:31-46) to give you a different perspective on salvation.

31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,

43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Thus I do not see that the CCC contradicts the Bible. It is plain here (at least from my perspective) that Jesus is also looking at our hearts. He knows if our hearts are with God or with this fallen world.

I want to make sure that you know I am not disparaging your beliefs. I am, to the best of my ability and knowledge sharing the Catholic stance on these matters. I did consult with my priest at RCIA on this matter, and he is the one that pointed out Matthew 25:31-46 to me.

Don’t worry, no offense is taken dude! However, I really don’t see the connection of the verses you quoted. They only depict the fruit of one’s faith, which is good works. It doesn’t speak of Jesus looking at the hearts of unbelievers for salvation.

There is no salvation outside the Church of Christ. That is true. Everyone who believes and trusts in the saving work of Christ on the cross is a part of His mystical body, the Church. Anyone who does not, including Jews and Muslims, are outside the Church and hence, cannot be saved. For if we can be saved by our own good works and/or obedience to the law, then Christ did not need to suffer and die on the cross for us.

As for the Bible, of course it doesn’t conatain EVERYTHING that Jesus taught or did; but it does contain everything we need for salvation and living the Christian life. In the previous chapter, John also said:

“Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (20:30-31)

 

[jmcrae]

Don’t worry, no offense is taken dude! However, I really don’t see the connection of the verses you quoted. They only depict the fruit of one’s faith, which is good works. It doesn’t speak of Jesus looking at the hearts of unbelievers for salvation.

There is no salvation outside the Church of Christ. That is true. Everyone who believes and trusts in the saving work of Christ on the cross is a part of His mystical body, the Church. Anyone who does not, including Jews and Muslims, are outside the Church and hence, cannot be saved. For if we can be saved by our own good works and/or obedience to the law, then Christ did not need to suffer and die on the cross for us.

Both Jews and Muslims believe in God, which is the first step of the Christian faith. They have crossed over the threshold into the house of faith, by means of their faith in God. It is possible, then, that they could come the rest of the way into the house of faith.

Just as Protestants, although they don’t have membership in the Church that Christ established on earth, are still connected by means of their faith in God, their trust in Jesus, and their baptism. They obviously have more than the Jews and the Muslims have, but at the same time, all three groups are still just standing in the doorway, and not coming all the way into the house. Yet, in a mystical way, they are all connected to the Church, even though they aren’t physically members of it.

As for the Bible, of course it doesn’t conatain EVERYTHING that Jesus taught or did; but it does contain everything we need for salvation and living the Christian life. In the previous chapter, John also said:

“Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (20:30-31)

And of course, an important element of believing Christ, is to actually think that the things He said are true, including the things He said about His Church, and expecially the promises that He made to our first Pope and Bishops.

But when a Protestant says, "Oh, well, Jesus was only speaking in a metaphor when He told Peter to be the Shepherd of the Church (John 21:15-19) or “Well, Jesus didn’t know that there were going to be bad Popes when He told Peter that He was going to build His Church on the Rock of Peter; obviously, if He had known, He would never have said that. (Matthew 16:18-19)”

These statements, though, signify a lack of trust in Christ - and is it not our trust in Christ that saves us, ultimately?

 

[Truth_Seeker17]

Both Jews and Muslims believe in God, which is the first step of the Christian faith. They have crossed over the threshold into the house of faith, by means of their faith in God. It is possible, then, that they could come the rest of the way into the house of faith.

Just as Protestants, although they don’t have membership in the Church that Christ established on earth, are still connected by means of their faith in God, their trust in Jesus, and their baptism. They obviously have more than the Jews and the Muslims have, but at the same time, all three groups are still just standing in the doorway, and not coming all the way into the house. Yet, in a mystical way, they are all connected to the Church, even though they aren’t physically members of it.

And of course, an important element of believing Christ, is to actually think that the things He said are true, including the things He said about His Church, and expecially the promises that He made to our first Pope and Bishops.

But when a Protestant says, "Oh, well, Jesus was only speaking in a metaphor when He told Peter to be the Shepherd of the Church (John 21:15-19) or “Well, Jesus didn’t know that there were going to be bad Popes when He told Peter that He was going to build His Church on the Rock of Peter; obviously, if He had known, He would never have said that. (Matthew 16:18-19)”

These statements, though, signify a lack of trust in Christ - and is it not our trust in Christ that saves us, ultimately?

“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also” (1 John 2:22-23, KJV).

What else can this verse mean, other than what it explicitly says: ANYONE who does believe that Jesus is the Messiah - including Muslims and Orthodox Jews - is the “antichrist” and therefore will not be saved?

And with all due respect, Jmcrae, we Protestants do not have a lack of trust in Christ; rather, we have a lack of trust in the Roman Catholic Church’s interpretation of Christ.

God bless,
TS17

 

[jmcrae]

“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also” (1 John 2:22-23, KJV).

Nobody is saying that they “are saved” in their present state. Only that, with what they have, God has something to work with, to bring them to saving faith, and membership in the Church.

What else can this verse mean, other than what it explicitly says: ANYONE who does believe that Jesus is the Messiah - including Muslims and Orthodox Jews - is the “antichrist” and therefore will not be saved?

If they deny it to their dying breath, then obviously the odds are mightily against them. Just as those who cry out Lord, Lord, but continually disobey Him will also find themselves on the wrong side of the gate.

And with all due respect, Jmcrae, we Protestants do not have a lack of trust in Christ; rather, we have a lack of trust in the Roman Catholic Church’s interpretation of Christ.

If you knew the Scriptures, you would know that the Church speaks with Christ’s voice - and can He misinterpret Himself?

 

[glenconnor]

Don’t worry, no offense is taken dude! However, I really don’t see the connection of the verses you quoted. They only depict the fruit of one’s faith, which is good works. It doesn’t speak of Jesus looking at the hearts of unbelievers for salvation.

There is no salvation outside the Church of Christ. That is true. Everyone who believes and trusts in the saving work of Christ on the cross is a part of His mystical body, the Church. Anyone who does not, including Jews and Muslims, are outside the Church and hence, cannot be saved. For if we can be saved by our own good works and/or obedience to the law, then Christ did not need to suffer and die on the cross for us.

I see where you are coming from, but for me what stands out is the very beginning of Matthew 25 (where I quoted it anyway)

31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (Matthew 25:31-32)

All the nations. Not all of the Christians, not all of Israel, but ALL of the nations. That is what stuck out for me. That’s where I made the connection.

And I am glad that you have taken no offense. I really value that we can have open discussions here respectfully. I appreciate you sharing your point of view with me.

Joshua

 

[Masters_Servant]

Firstly, I will say that as Catholics we believe (or should believe in) Sacred Scripture AND tradition. So here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say on salvation:

CCC 1021: Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.

Nothing there says if you aren’t Catholic you aren’t able to be saved.

Rather than toss up dozens of notations, I sum it up with points from Dominus Iesus document (2000) written by then-Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI

Cardinal Ratzinger describes the status of non-Christian religions:
------- The Church of Christ is the instrument by which all humans are saved.
------- Salvation is accessible to some people who are not members of the “Church” – (i.e. not Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox Christians). It comes through grace which originates with Christ and “enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation.”
-----The prayers and rituals of other religions may help or hinder their believers. Some practices may prepare their membership to absorb the Gospel. However, those rituals which “depend on superstitions or other errors… constitute an obstacle to salvation.”
------ Members of other religions are “gravely deficient” relative to members of the Church of Christ who already have “the fullness of the means of salvation.”

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (Outside of the Catholic Church, there is no salvation) went out ages ago, and rightly so. I would rather trust in His judgment and mercy then to believe that so many people would be damned to eternal suffering. Before you bandy about such comments as how many people go to hell, think about what that really entails.

The Bible clearly states that a majority, yes the majority, who call themselves Christians are not going to be in heaven; so you chose this day who you will believe, the word of God or some human being. It is everyone’s freedom to make that decision; many or most make the wrong one according to God. - Matthew 7 and Luke 13.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Contraire, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is as true today as it was when it was first solemnly and infallibly proclaimed many centuries ago. It has NEVER gone “out” of Church teaching. It is an eternal teaching that can not be revoked - ever. What we have today is a greater exposition on that same divine truth that is re-expressed in the catechism in more positive language. What we have is a deeper teaching for what it means - and that is that all grace comes to humankind through Christ as head of The Catholic Church and like a river flows THROUGH the Church to its formal members and also in some cases to those who are not formal members. Baptised Protestants for example are joined to The Catholic Church by that baptismal rite (trinitarian formula). They just do not understand it - but that does not change the truth of the matter. What makes it exceedingly hard for non-Catholics so baptised in a deficient informal relationship to the Catholic Church is that they are very susceptible to grave post baptismal sins without the sacraments (principally Sacrament of Repentance and Eucharist). At death, anyone who is still in grace but not a formal member of The Catholic Church is brought into a full membership and is perfected (Including those who gain baptism by desire or by martyrdom/blood).

Then Cardinal Ratzinger was not kidding when he stated that non-Catholics are in a deficient faith. It is extremely risky to be anything other than Catholic. That said, we can all see by exterior behaviors and lack of pious attitude in mass by some “cultural Catholics” that many Catholics are also likely going to hell for not truly entering into the sacrament of The Church (e.g. in mass) to love God with all their heart, mind, body and soul. Therefor these are essentially “missing” their Sunday obligation and are only present in body but absent in mind, heart, soul. So being a Catholic in name only is not going to cut it either if one is not conforming to the disciplines and teachings.

Bottom Line: In all of history ONLY the Catholic Church has any evidence (post death miracles of its saints) that a single soul ever gained heaven. Not one single Protestant has ever come back to ratify the neo-Christian teachings of “sola fide” and the other reformer theories. Not one. We should not necessarily take utter silence as indicative that all are in hell but it should be clear that “invincible ignorance” is not the normative means to salvation nor is blatant disobedience to follow Jesus’ appointed ecclesial leaders going to gain anyone a shred of saving grace.

James

Infallibly claimed by fallible men; a contradiction in the use of language…LOL

 

[Masters_Servant]

James, although I respect your reasoning and your basis for it, I will continue to believe that He is working to save all of us and that His mercy is great. There are countless people throughout history who have had no opportunity to know Christ. Though I can only speculate as to what it is, I am nevertheless certain that there is a plan for such as those.

You are right, but you need not speculate, God told us in Romans 1 & 2 for about the 3rd time I have repeated this.

 

[Masters_Servant]

I guess that it could be that I am more than a little biased. We have few Christians in my family’s recent history. That is something that weighs heavily on me. Most of the time when I think of someone going to hell, I imagine that it is one of my loved ones, and it makes me very fervently hope in His Mercy.

Have you presented the gospel and given them the good news, which is predicated upon the bad news if they reject it? If you haven’t; your conscience will eat away at you. They may reject your message now, but the planter is not the one who is the converter. they may not even talk to you afterward, but you honored God and he who honors God will in turn be exalted by God.

I have family members that won’t speak to me anymore on the things of God, but i know I did what i was commanded and I now just pray god will remove the veil of unbelief. that is all you can do and it is what you need to do ASAP. Go for it; you will feel a weight lifted from you and be at peace.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Truthseeker and Bengoshi–

In short, because we as Catholics believe in Sacred Scripture and Tradition. A good bible quote for this would be:
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (John 21:25).

“The devil is in the details”; if everything that Jesus DID, key word DID; He practically banished all disease from Palestine and if every one of those cases were written down, there would not be a computer big enough to contain all the details.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Thank you for those very good points. I have made a small study of the Divine Mercy and have prayed the novena once so far. It helps me to remember to trust in the Mercy of God.

I am glad to be formally entering the Church 3 April (I was baptized when I was six months old but that was as far I got with religion until last year). I am just sorry that I lost so many years when everything I ever wanted in this life and more was with Him all along. I have so much to learn, and that to me means that the best is yet to come.

Peter did not reject Christ; Judas Iscariot rejected Christ. Peter sinned by denying Christ out of fear for his own life; this is far different than believing the message; which Peter always did; whereas Judas never did. Huge difference and huge implications.

 

[Masters_Servant]

(1) No one who knowingly and deliberately refuses to enter into visible communion with the Catholic Church before death can be saved [Denzinger catecheticsonline.com - ]247

, 423, 430, 468-469, 570b, 714].
(2) Some people who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Catholic Church and do not enter into visible communion with her during their lifetime can be saved if they at least implicitly desire baptism, sincerely seek truth, do the will of God to the best of their ability, are in good faith, and have perfect charity [Denzinger catecheticsonline.com - ]1647-1648, 1677-1678].

R U pre Vatican II or a hybrid? On point 2; I would like to see you demonstrate that assertion via the word of God; i don’t think you can because it is not in there even at an implicit level.

 

[CentralFLJames]

And with all due respect, Jmcrae, we Protestants do not have a lack of trust in Christ; rather, we have a lack of trust in the Roman Catholic Church’s interpretation of Christ.

God bless,
TS17

All heretical groups could make the same claim. But since when does lack of faithfulness or lack of trust become sufficient to invalidate the truth and the established norms? Just how does Protestantism differ from all the early heretics in the early Church who put their faith in their own ideas and personal interpretations about what it meant to be a Christian and refused to trust the apostles and their disciples teaching?

In the early Church there were: general independent rouge Christian groups of heretics/apostates, Gnostics, Simon Magnus sorts, various cults of Judizing Jews, Marcion, Nestorians, Arians etc.

Paul showed his frustration in the first century when he said"

Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Did Protestants receive their gospel teaching from a successor of Christ’s disciples or did they receive it from Martin Luther, or one of the other so called various “reformers”, or from their own private interpretation of scripture? It seems to me that the Protestant idea of “sola fide” is really “faith in the teachings of the reformers” - none of which had any linkage to the early church teaching traditions.

Why not the same “suspicion” and mistrust of the reformers who all admitted to being totally depraved sinners who were fallable? What makes a reformer more worthy of trust than the 2,000 year old Catholic Church when not one of these men worked a single miracle and who often persecuted each other?

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Infallibly claimed by fallible men; a contradiction in the use of language…LOL

That’s a non-sequitur. You follow the teachings of sinner and men who were all fallable in reading and taking to heart all their gospel readings. Just how is it that Peter the sinner, and Saul/Paul the murder and the others who were common men could become the instruments of God to write infallable inspired scripture? It is by grace that God works his infallable works through the frail instrumentation of defective men to make them infallable in the moments they teach and record official doctrine.

So please explain how the fallable reformers who all admitted to being totally depraved men who could do no good on their own merits were able to escape their defective reasoning to make a case that they were qualified to reform the church and make it perfect?

Talk about a fundamental contradiction against reason. The reformation is irrational from the getgo…

James

 

[Truth_Seeker17]

All heretical groups could make the same claim. But since when does lack of faithfulness or lack of trust become sufficient to invalidate the truth and the established norms? Just how does Protestantism differ from all the early heretics in the early Church who put their faith in their own ideas and personal interpretations about what it meant to be a Christian and refused to trust the apostles and their disciples teaching?

In the early Church there were: general independent rouge Christian groups of heretics/apostates, Gnostics, Simon Magnus sorts, various cults of Judizing Jews, Marcion, Nestorians, Arians etc.

Paul showed his frustration in the first century when he said"

Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Did Protestants receive their gospel teaching from a successor of Christ’s disciples or did they receive it from Martin Luther, or one of the other so called various “reformers”, or from their own private interpretation of scripture? It seems to me that the Protestant idea of “sola fide” is really “faith in the teachings of the reformers” - none of which had any linkage to the early church teaching traditions.

Why not the same “suspicion” and mistrust of the reformers who all admitted to being totally depraved sinners who were fallable? What makes a reformer more worthy of trust than the 2,000 year old Catholic Church when not one of these men worked a single miracle and who often persecuted each other?

James

First of all, let me say this: I do not consider myself a straight-up ‘Protestant.’ I am merely Christian. A believer. I follow Jesus and only Jesus. At the end of the day, while Luther, Calvin, Arminian, Wesley, etc. were ‘great’ people, none of those people were the Messiah. I will follow what the Bible says before any man’s fallible teachings. You mentioned the word ‘suspicion’. Well, I am suspicious of EVERYONE - Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Anglicans, etc etc.

That being said, the only reason I am not Catholic is simply because my interpretation of the Bible is different from theirs. That is all. You could call me a heretic; I could call you a heretic, but at the end of the day, what good would that do? We both believe in the Bible. Yes, the Protestant Bible and the Catholic Bible are slightly different, but the message is still the same.

And as far as Galatians 1:9 goes, I question its relevance to this conversation. I mean it’s one thing if someone were to argue that perhaps Jesus wasn’t really the divine Son of God (Deists, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Unitarians, for example). But this is certainly not the case between Catholics and Protestants. Do not we both believe we are saved by the grace of God (even though we disagree on the specifics)? Do we not agree that Jesus Christ died and rose on the cross the cleanse us from our sins, so that we may someday spend eternity in Heaven with Him?

God bless,
TS17

 

[CentralFLJames]

R U pre Vatican II or a hybrid? On point 2; I would like to see you demonstrate that assertion via the word of God; i don’t think you can because it is not in there even at an implicit level.

You are forgetting the most obvious case that God loves The Son and that Christ’s prayers reflect The Divine Will expressed through His human nature and that God surely listens to The Son. Can God the Father refuse a single thing that the Son would ask through the merits of His Human suffering? Here is your scriptural reference:
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

[note: The above ending is not unlike the reformers dividing the raiment of The Church to take chances on every small fragment of original apostolic teaching and ruining the whole cloth truth]

Luke 1:50 His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation.

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Deut. 1:39 'Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there “the good land” - OT topology for the Promised Land - Heaven], and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.
*

Mercy is always a possibility with God except for one who dies hardened in sin and unrepentant. This soul is lost since he commits the one unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit by blaspheming His incessant call to the conscience of man to love God.

God has given us a natural means to seek Him out. St. Augustine expressed it best when he said: *“Our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee, O Lord.” *

In addition to all the big clues about God seen in the splendor and metaphors present in the Created Universe (the uncountable bright stars contrasting the utter darkness of space - light vs darkness) our own human spiritual restlessness compels us to seek out God even without hearing the gospel. We are made for friendship with God and our souls naturally seek the peace of beatitude with God. We know we are incomplete and unsatisfied without God – though many try to cover over the pain of that deficiency with every manner of distraction (strong drink, gluttony, lust, vanity, power etc. ).

James

 

[Masters_Servant]

That’s a non-sequitur. You follow the teachings of sinner and men who were all fallable in reading and taking to heart all their gospel readings. Just how is it that Peter the sinner, and Saul/Paul the murder and the others who were common men could become the instruments of God to write infallable inspired scripture? It is by grace that God works his infallable works through the frail instrumentation of defective men to make them infallable in the moments they teach and record official doctrine.

So please explain how the fallable reformers who all admitted to being totally depraved men who could do no good on their own merits were able to escape their defective reasoning to make a case that they were qualified to reform the church and make it perfect?

Talk about a fundamental contradiction against reason. The reformation is irrational from the getgo…

James

They never made the claim to be infallible; but they were inspired by an infallible entity. That is different than your statement and the implication, not to mention the reality; that why I got a chuckle from it.

 

[CentralFLJames]

They never made the claim to be infallible; but they were inspired by an infallible entity.

They were inspired? Says who? The bible makes no assertions anywhere that the gospel writers are infallable and that the bible is the word of God. Paul does not even exempt himself when he rants about all men being sinners and that all men are liars and are deceived. The Catholic Church is the only one that has taught that the bible is inspired and the authentic word of God. No apostle ever saw anything remotely close to a full NT bible or ever imagined that what they were saying and writing would become the Bible. It is only by the authority of the Catholic Church that any Christian even knows that the bible is valid.

That is different than your statement and the implication, not to mention the reality; that why I got a chuckle from it.

The reality is that there are 800+ million non-Catholic Christians (Protestants) in the world divided into at least 35,000+ denominations all laughing or swearing at each other for their improper dividing of the Word of God. The implications are clear to me - the fruits of error are seen in the legion of divisions within the corpus of Protestantism. Soon it will be every man a bible his pope and there will be 800+ million ideas about what Christianity should be and the only agreeable thing among them will be their contempt for the pope and the only valid authority on the planet.

James