'Invincible ignorance' inquires

[Polycarp1]

Roman Catholics believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the only church founded and commissioned by Christ. We believe that of all Faiths that the Roman Catholic faith holds the “fullness of truth” That is to say that it possesses the most complete and accurate interpretation of what has been revealed by God to man. Other faiths possess varying degrees of the truth and many of these have sufficient truth, necessary for salvation, to be considered to be in communion with and by the Catholic Church, whether or not these faiths would describe themselves that way.

There are those who through no fault of their own have never heard enough of the Truth to be able to make a true freewill decision to either embrace it or to reject it based on the facts. Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory. Most of the world has heard of Jesus, but many not to the extent where they could make a full and informed decision to accept or reject Him.

Conversely merely being a member of the Roman Catholic Church is no guarantee of getting into heaven and in fact many Catholics won’t. In fact having had access to the “fullness of truth” there is a greater onus on them to live according to the faith and to be judged on how they lived it. As a Catholic I have to say that the Roman Catholic Church is full of sinners, but as that was whom Christ came to call, that shouldn’t surprise anybody. We all have the obligation to seek out more and more truth and to try and be better people. Once we think we know it all and stop seeking we are really in trouble.

 

[allcingi]

Hello all,

I would like to confirm my understanding of the Catholic Church’s view on salvation and to clarify some points. From what I’ve gathered reading bits and pieces of the CCC, there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. However, that does not mean that only Catholics will go to heaven (although that is the surest route to take). Those who believe in, love and follow a monotheistic God - such as Protestants, Jews and Muslims - will probably still receive salvation because they are indirectly and unofficially members of the Church.

Furthermore, those who have never heard the Gospel and thus do not believe - such as native tribes in Africa, infants, mentally disabled people, etc - will still go to heaven because of their invincible ignorance. Finally, those who live ‘good’ lives but not within a monotheistic religion - such as Hindus, Buddhists and Mormons - might also have invincible ignorance and go to heaven in spite, not because, of their faith.

All the religions teach the same basic truths, but yet they argue over who does a better job worshipping an “idea of God.” Like humans have the mental capacity to fathom God much less argue over who worships it better. Disgusting arrogance. The old testament states that God will write the laws in the hearts of all flesh, and the new testament says Jesus will draw all flesh to him. Sounds like all religion does is keep the masses divided so those whom know the Truth can prosper from the labors of the scared, angry, and ignorant masses. Divide and conquor. Religion, politics, media it always has been and always will be.

Does this represent what the Church teaches? If not, then where am I wrong? Any helpful links with information on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, and God bless,

TS 17

 

[usemelord]

I have a serious problem with the earlier assertion made by thistle that “Nobody outside the Catholic Church will be saved.” Thankfully, MervinBunter came to the rescue and quoted pertinent sections of the CCC in order to set things straight. I am a convert to the Catholic faith celebrating my fifth “birthday” into the church this upcoming Easter. During my RCIA journey we occasionally had a priest attend our weekly sessions and he would invite questions of us. I distinctly recall asking the priest if Catholics were elitists; that is to say, do Catholics think that heaven is exclusively for them? After a long pause and reflection, the priest responded by answering, “Well, if Billy Graham isn’t going to heaven, I don’t know who is.” Of course, I already knew the correct answer, but needed confirmation from the priest to dispel any doubts I had about Catholic claims concerning exclusivity to heaven. Now (tongue in cheek) in know I will be reunited with my mother and father who I will not find in “Protestant heaven.”

 

[thistle]

I have a serious problem with the earlier assertion made by thistle that “Nobody outside the Catholic Church will be saved.” Thankfully, MervinBunter came to the rescue and quoted pertinent sections of the CCC in order to set things straight. I am a convert to the Catholic faith celebrating my fifth “birthday” into the church this upcoming Easter. During my RCIA journey we occasionally had a priest attend our weekly sessions and he would invite questions of us. I distinctly recall asking the priest if Catholics were elitists; that is to say, do Catholics think that heaven is exclusively for them? After a long pause and reflection, the priest responded by answering, “Well, if Billy Graham isn’t going to heaven, I don’t know who is.” Of course, I already knew the correct answer, but needed confirmation from the priest to dispel any doubts I had about Catholic claims concerning exclusivity to heaven. Now (tongue in cheek) in know I will be reunited with my mother and father who I will not find in “Protestant heaven.”

It is a teaching that nobody outside the Catholic Church can be saved.

There are NO non-Catholics in Heaven.

We can argue that mainstream Protestants are separated brethern but as long as they remain separated and don’t come home to the Catholic Church how can they be saved.
There is no Church teaching that says a birth to death Methodist, Anglican, Lutheran etc will be saved.

 

[Bengoshi]

Nobody outside the Catholic Church will be saved. Of course that does not mean all Catholics will be saved (only those dying in a state of grace will be saved).

Baptism is necessary for salvation. Anyone who is not an official member of the Church may be saved through Baptism of Blood or Baptism of Desire. Those in that situation would be deemed to be members of the Church.

Hi there!

I don’t think that is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, especially if we take into account the Second Vatican Council. Evangelicals (Protestants) are also members of the catholic (universal) church of Christ. As a priest friend of mine, who is the pastor of the Nuestra Senora de Guia Parish Church, said to me through SMS the other day, it is not membership in any organization which saves us but our obedience to Christ in love.

So Protestants who, because of their genuine faith in Christ, obey God’s commands and does His work, are saved. Likewise, for us Evangelicals, we are saved by grace through faith in Christ, which manifests itself in good works and obedience to the precepts of God.

 

[thistle]

Hi there!

I don’t think that is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, especially if we take into account the Second Vatican Council. Evangelicals (Protestants) are also members of the catholic (universal) church of Christ. As a priest friend of mine, who is the pastor of the Nuestra Senora de Guia Parish Church, said to me through SMS the other day, it is not membership in any organization which saves us but our obedience to Christ in love.

So Protestants who, because of their genuine faith in Christ, obey God’s commands and does His work, are saved. Likewise, for us Evangelicals, we are saved by grace through faith in Christ, which manifests itself in good works and obedience to the precepts of God.

No they are not saved. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (the only Church established by Christ).
Rejecting his Church is rejecting Christ and his teachings and does not lead to salvation.

 

[Bengoshi]

It is a teaching that nobody outside the Catholic Church can be saved.

There are NO non-Catholics in Heaven.

We can argue that mainstream Protestants are separated brethern but as long as they remain separated and don’t come home to the Catholic Church how can they be saved.
There is no Church teaching that says a birth to death Methodist, Anglican, Lutheran etc will be saved.

Hi there!

So you’re in a way saying that Billy Graham and all the people who gave their lives to Christ because of his preaching and ministry will definitely go to Hell. I’m sorry, but I really think that is a very arrogant statement. You are not God and I don’t think that is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, especially if we take into account the Second Vatican Council. Read the posts made by others above as they have quoted the CCC and certain priests. Evangelicals (Protestants) are also members of the catholic (universal) church of Christ. As a famous priest friend of mine, who is the pastor of the Nuestra Senora de Guia Parish Church, said to me through SMS the other day, it is not membership in any organization which saves us but our obedience to Christ in love.

So Protestants who, because of their genuine faith in Christ, obey God’s commands and do His work, are saved. Likewise, for us Evangelicals, we are saved by grace through faith in Christ, which manifests itself in good works and obedience to the precepts of God (Eph. 1:4-14, 2:8-10; Rom. 6:23, 10:9-10, John 3:16).

 

[thistle]

Hi there!

So you’re in a way saying that Billy Graham and all the people who gave their lives to Christ because of his preaching and ministry will definitely go to Hell. I’m sorry, but I really think that is a very arrogant statement. You are not God and I don’t think that is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, especially if we take into account the Second Vatican Council. Read the posts made by others above as they have quoted the CCC and certain priests. Evangelicals (Protestants) are also members of the catholic (universal) church of Christ. As a famous priest friend of mine, who is the pastor of the Nuestra Senora de Guia Parish Church, said to me through SMS the other day, it is not membership in any organization which saves us but our obedience to Christ in love.

So Protestants who, because of their genuine faith in Christ, obey God’s commands and do His work, are saved. Likewise, for us Evangelicals, we are saved by grace through faith in Christ, which manifests itself in good works and obedience to the precepts of God (Eph. 1:4-14, 2:8-10; Rom. 6:23, 10:9-10, John 3:16).

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

CCC 848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

 

[long215]

There are those who are invincibly ignorant who will die in grace. Check out Romans 2:12-16. In today’s connected world (television, internet) it would seem hard to be invincibly ignorant. The passage below is from newadvent.org.
12 For whosoever have sinned without the law shall perish without the law: and whosoever have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. 13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God: but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these, having not the law, are a law to themselves. 15 Who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them: and their thoughts between themselves accusing or also defending one another, 16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

[joanofarc143130]

Nobody outside the Catholic Church will be saved. Of course that does not mean all Catholics will be saved (only those dying in a state of grace will be saved).

Baptism is necessary for salvation. Anyone who is not an official member of the Church may be saved through Baptism of Blood or Baptism of Desire. Those in that situation would be deemed to be members of the Church.

You are right that this is the normal way of salvation, through a full participation in the sacramental life in accordance with the Church that Christ founded. However, Jesus can save whoever He chooses to save and since He made the rules, He has control. I was reading the Diary of St. Faustina this summer and I came across a passage in which St. Faustina begged Jesus to save all the souls of those who had died that day. He replied that it was too difficult a thing that she was asking, but she continued to ask for it in full confidence of His love and divine mercy, and soon Jesus consented to her request. All the souls who had died that day must have included people of all religions, atheists, agnostics, people who had never heard of Christianity before, etc. In view of this Divine Mercy I have to say, Jesus can make pretty powerful exceptions. According to this (Church-approved) devotion, faith-filled recitation of the Divine Mercy Chaplet can save souls who do not otherwise “merit” salvation.

 

[thistle]

You are right that this is the normal way of salvation, through a full participation in the sacramental life in accordance with the Church that Christ founded. However, Jesus can save whoever He chooses to save and since He made the rules, He has control. I was reading the Diary of St. Faustina this summer and I came across a passage in which St. Faustina begged Jesus to save all the souls of those who had died that day. He replied that it was too difficult a thing that she was asking, but she continued to ask for it in full confidence of His love and divine mercy, and soon Jesus consented to her request. All the souls who had died that day must have included people of all religions, atheists, agnostics, people who had never heard of Christianity before, etc. In view of this Divine Mercy I have to say, Jesus can make pretty powerful exceptions. According to this (Church-approved) devotion, faith-filled recitation of the Divine Mercy Chaplet can save souls who do not otherwise “merit” salvation.

The Divine Mercy is one of the private revelations I do believe. Of course the chance of non-Catholic being able to pray the Divine Mercy if near to death I would imagine is pretty remote. I even know Catholics who know little about it.

 

[joanofarc143130]

The Divine Mercy is one of the private revelations I do believe. Of course the chance of non-Catholic being able to pray the Divine Mercy if near to death I would imagine is pretty remote. I even know Catholics who know little about it.

That is true – but I meant that we, the faithful, those who are Catholic, can pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet on behalf of those who know nothing about it, and if we appeal to Jesus’ Mercy He may do a miracle of grace at the hour of their death (either a deathbed conversion or otherwise).

 

[jmcrae]

The Divine Mercy is one of the private revelations I do believe. Of course the chance of non-Catholic being able to pray the Divine Mercy if near to death I would imagine is pretty remote. I even know Catholics who know little about it.

The Second Sunday of Easter is Divine Mercy Sunday, so it’s also part of our Liturgical calendar.

 

[thistle]

The Second Sunday of Easter is Divine Mercy Sunday, so it’s also part of our Liturgical calendar.

That does not mean that all Catholics have heard of Sister Faustina and what the Divine Mercy is all about. They simply know when that Sunday comes round its Divine Mercy Sunday without knowing what it actually means.

 

[joanofarc143130]

That does not mean that all Catholics have heard of Sister Faustina and what the Divine Mercy is all about. They simply know when that Sunday comes round its Divine Mercy Sunday without knowing what it actually means.

You’re right – so spread the word!! This devotion can save thousands of souls! Let’s all try to pray at least one Divine Mercy Chaplet daily and meditate on Our Lord’s Passion at 3:00. It’s a good Lent idea too.

 

[thistle]

You’re right – so spread the word!! This devotion can save thousands of souls! Let’s all try to pray at least one Divine Mercy Chaplet daily and meditate on Our Lord’s Passion at 3:00. It’s a good Lent idea too.

I totally agree.

 

[HappyRevert]

That’s why God is God and we’re not!

1260… "we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God"

This is an extremely important point which seems to be missed by many who dogmatically proclaim that outside of The Church, none will be saved. We are not God. We don’t know the obstacles in each person’s path to Him and we therefore trust that His Mercy and Grace offers the possibility of salvation to all, by means known only to Him.

Thanks for that statement ATL Granny. I think it takes a certain narrowness of life experience to roundly condemn people and make the assertion that

"I doubt very much if many people on this planet are really invincibly ignorant. "

I have adopted children from overseas and they had NO knowledge of God AT ALL. In Russia alone since the Russian Revolution (the one in1917), that country did a good job of wiping out religion for the common people. In many other countries, I’m sure it is the same. I know that God has granted mercy to me in my sinfulness and I know he offers it to all. It may not be in a way that I understand, but that’s God job not mine.

I think Catholics get a bad reputation when we assert things as if we know what “ignorance” exactly means. With God’s grace I will get to heaven, because I know for a fact I can’t do it. I also know that as much as he loves me, he loves each and every person that has been born and will be born just as much so his mercy is infinite.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Thanks for that statement ATL Granny. I think it takes a certain narrowness of life experience to roundly condemn people and make the assertion that

"I doubt very much if many people on this planet are really invincibly ignorant. "

I see no condemnation in this person’s stating the obvious truth that “invincible ignorance” can not possibly be the normative means for salvation. If this were true then why would Christ have commissiond the apostles to teach the good news to all peoples?? Clearly ignorance saves no one and no grace comes from ignorance. Ignorance is not a new sacrament.

Clearly Jesus had to die for a greater good so that by faith the grace so won would be available to those who availed themselves of it. Ignorance never saved anyone. All ignorance does is mitigate guilt – less severe chastisement. But we are all born into a deficit of grace and ignorance and will go to hell if we do not acquire grace and at least follow the natural God given moral conscience that compels us all to seek out the divine truths. Being lazy and electing of free will to remain"ignorant" is a sin against the natural moral conscience and a capital sin of Sloth (being deadly it adds personal culpability to the base condition of Original sin). All humans know from the age of consent that they are a higher ordered creature set above the unreasoning animals. To take refuge in ignorance is to take refuge in a lower nature that is beneath the dignity of our race. There is no sure hope to be found in ignorance but rather in reason illumined by faith and in the acquisition of the virtues of charity, love and hope. This is why all humans have a natural thirst for knowledge and truth.

I think you owe the man an apology for automatically in assuming that his reasonable assertion that ignorance can not be the norm is the equivalent to condeming most of the planet. He never condemned anyone - he only asserted a logical truth that ignorance can not be the normative path to salvation. That does not deny God’s ability to save outside of the Catholic sacraments. Now let me ask – how is your condemnation of him any different from what you wrongly and unjustly subscribe to him as judgement of others?

I think Catholics get a bad reputation when we assert things as if we know what “ignorance” exactly means.

But we do know a thing or two about the one true faith - have you not read the catechism? It is full to the brim with truth. Ignorance is of two varieties - invincible and vincible. We Catholics are called to educate the ignorant to the truth without presuming to know which are invincible or vincible. Christ never made the distinction and told his disciples to simply shake the dust from their feet from the company of men who rejected the good news. Was that rejection invincible ignorance or just pigheaded stubbornness? I think the latter - these all had an opportunity to hear the good news, repent and be saved. But they rejected it.

Some number, who I also believe are “few” in the western society are of the invincible ignorant variety (esp. mentally handicapped or those suffering mental injuries). Again, if man were largely (51% or more) saved by ignorance why did Jesus even have to teach and suffer and die? No - it just doesn’t make a shred of sense. The urgency in Christ’s teachings on hell suggest the exact opposite - FEW pass through the narrow gate that leads to salvation and MANY go by the wide gate toward the path of destruction. Only God knows how many He pulls out before they go over the cliff like lemmings to their own destruction. Nothing is impossible for God - but that was why Christ came in the first place - to make it possible to hear the good news and be saved through faith & life long repentance.

Only God can transform a person - but it is our job to be instruments for that transformation - to let the Holy Spirit speak and educate through our lives. Rather than presuming a condition of invincible ignorance as a default we should assume a condition of simple depravity from the fullness of truth that is aching and thirsting to be filled and illumined by Catholic teaching. Indifferentism and pluralism are not necessarily the same things as invincible ignorance - rather hubris and pride are clearly at work in many of these cases. There is never an excuse for the root of all evil - pride.

We both agree that God predestines no one to hell. But salvation is not at all a function of head smarts. Rather it mostly a function of faith and love and charity (by definition love of both God and man that Christ so intimately identified with). These are things that are taught and infused by God and by man cooperating with Him through the instrumentality of His created beings - both in heaven and on earth.

If we Catholics don’t have full confidence that we have the truth then there is no reason to be Catholic and we should go take the next best bet - which is to take refuge in the theory that some are insensibly ignorant; and then go put our heads in the sand and don’t listen to a thing anyone tells us and hope we are saved by ignorance. Fat chance. I must ask a question - ‘is malicious ignorance the same thing as invincible ignorance?’ I think not - the first implies a cowardly fear of being wrong and fear of the burden of the truth. But the latter comes from an utter naivety that suggests child like innocence - exactly what we see in those under age and those who are mentally handicapped. There are only 2 lanes on the path to heaven - by innocence and by holiness (the latter are most of us who have lost their innocence but regained purity in Christ and stay in good grace). That is there are only - Justice and Mercy - both converge at the same narrow gate - Christ. Both are what permit God to open the door to eternal beatitude or to send those He does not recognize as His to “their own place”.

James

 

[glenconnor]

Yes, that’s a very wise statement. I totally agree - God, not man, is the Judge.

I have a question for both you and Julian: When you say that Catholicism ‘is not the only way to Christ’, what exactly is/are the other way(s) to Christ? Are Protestants, who reject Jesus’ Church but still follow Him, on the right path? Are Jews and Muslims, who deny the divinity of Jesus but still follow a monotheistic God, on the right path? Are Buddhists and Hindus, who do not believe in one God but still live good and moral lives, on the right path?

I have heard it said that God can make good out of any choice we make. I do not believe that only Catholics find salvation. People who didn’t know about Christ but instinctively followed His path I believe can find salvation. A person who does the best with the truths that he/she is given, who follows the corporeal and spiritual acts of mercy I would think will also find salvation. Remember, that Christ did not come to condemn us but to save us. His mercy is great.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Again, I completely agree with you, Julian, when you say we can’t understand God or His intentions. We shouldn’t question His actions. All I’m asking for, though, is just some general parameters regarding what you think the Bible and the Church says about salvation.

If we, as Christians, are unable to understand God’s ways, then why did He bother to give us the Scripture so we can not only know Him, but know salvation’s path, which is Christ?

Please answer that…thanks.

MS

Romans 8:28