'Invincible ignorance' inquires

[Bengoshi]

I have no idea where you put that blanket out on Baptists; but I do not know any Christian that believes that you can just accept Christ and go on sinning willfully and continually, regardless of the denomination and I have never seen that taught in any Baptist church I have gone to. What you described is called “easy believism” and is not a Baptist concept that i have ever seen taught.

Maybe I stated it wrongly. What I read from Charles Stanley’s book, “Eternal Security” is that once a person truly accepts Christ as Lord and Savior at one point in his life, then that person is saved, regardless whether s/he totally abandons the Faith thereafter. That’s the part that I don’t totaly agree with. I was even surprised when I read that because that is not what we were taught in our church nor what I believein based on my studies, specifically, from Wayne Grudem’s and Louis Berkhoff’s books on Systematic Theology. I just assumed that all Baptists agree with the teachings of Dr. Charles Stanley. I like most of his teachings, in fact, he is my favorite preacher. However, that is just one area that I do not agree with him.

 

[JVD]

Maybe I stated it wrongly. What I read from Charles Stanley’s book, “Eternal Security” is that once a person truly accepts Christ as Lord and Savior at one point in his life, then that person is saved, regardless whether s/he totally abandons the Faith thereafter. That’s the part that I don’t totaly agree with. I was even surprised when I read that because that is not what we were taught in our church nor what I believein based on my studies, specifically, from Wayne Grudem’s and Louis Berkhoff’s books on Systematic Theology. I just assumed that all Baptists agree with the teachings of Dr. Charles Stanley. I like most of his teachings, in fact, he is my favorite preacher. However, that is just one area that I do not agree with him.

You are right not to agree with Charles Stanley’s books since he is peddling his own gospel and is not in possession of the full truth but rather only a portion of the true apostolic faith handed down to us through the Catholic Church and then added and subtracted according to his own defective reasoning. The doctrine of Eternal Security as it is called is a pure fabrication that was never taught in the early church nor in all of Christendom until after the 16th century. At that time the printing press made it possible for every fictional work known to man to be widely published and peddled to gullible minds - often by secular Kings eager to control their populace by putting out propaganda and by controlling the press to their ends. Protestantism was fabricated to be a “secular state religion” to control the masses and to bypass the ecclesial authority of the true Church to empower Kings and Monarchs. But it backfired and is why Protestantism fractured into 10’s of thousands of shards of fractional beliefs to accommodate every wild idea one could imagine. Trust no work that does not have the Catholic Church’s imprimatur hallmark.

Why is it that “bible only” Christians must seek out the books of snake-oil peddlers to tell them what the bible says? If the bible is self-teaching as such believe then it would be only necessary for them to read their bibles. But we see by the proliferation of such works and by the eagerness of such willing to buy these fictions that sola scriptura is a fabrication. So then, why not come hear the free & true teachings of those who wrote, assembled and taught the bible and the actual beliefs of the apostles for 2000 years (The Catholic Church) rather than purchase addendum’s to the bible by plausible but deluded Charlatans?

BTW - many Southern Baptists do in fact teach that once one professes their faith they are in fact “saved” and sin no longer exists in anything that they can do as a saved individual. Most of course do not try to test that theory by consciously sinning but there are quite a few who do not worry in the least if they do sin since they feel they are exempted from the penalty of sin since its all been foreseen and automatically forgiven one time for all time. This is of course one of the most deadly and vile lies ever to be propagated in the name of Christianity. We are called to repent - not just one time - but our entire lives - every day and every hour - and to request forgivness and God’s Mercy each and every time we do sin gravely.

James

 

[jmcrae]

Just a simple question: Assuming arguendo that we are also saved by good works in cooperation with grace, how much good works would be sufficient to merit us salvation?

All of the ones that God gives you to do. (In the case of a baby who dies after baptism, the number is 0. In the case of a healthy person who lives to be more than 100 years old, the number could be in the millions.)

 

[jmcrae]

I see that we could be in a difficult spot if we believe this Catholic doctrine that you espouse. Didn’t Christ die so that we could be asssured of our place in God’s Kingdom? That if we confess with our mouth that “Jesus is Lord” and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved? (Rom. 10:9)

Christ died to make it possible. He didn’t die to “assure” us of anything. If we obey His laws, then we are saved by His death on the Cross. If we disobey Him without ever repenting, confessing, and changing our lives, then no amount of Him dying on the Cross can do anything for us.

 

[Mark01]

Mark, I do not know if this helps or adds confusion, but I think of it in this manner. All mankind is on the south rim of the Grand Canyon and God is on the North rim of the grand Canyon. Only the ones without sin can come over to God because they were able to meet His standard for entrance or crossing if you will. So how many men will cross over to God, none. Why? because no one can meet His standard; therefore He is just in leaving all of them behind. But in His mercy and His kindness He provided a bridge or a way over to His side in the name of Christ. To some He chose to reveal Christ and to others He did not. Is He still just? Yes. Why? Because from the start no one was able to meet the standard and all were deserving of separation from God, which is hell.

It would be the same as asking was God justified in destroying all of the world except for 8 people? Yes. Why? The same reason all fell short, but in His Mercy He brought 8 through the waters of His judgment through the safety of His protection, which was the Ark.

In God’s own word; thi sis how He puts it through the Apostles Paul in the letter to the Romans

“What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

You see salvation of men is not about man, but about God displaying His glory to his creation, which is done by showing His righteous judgment or by His saving grace. He is glorified in either case, which is the reason for the creation, to put that glory on display.

Masters Servant I see you are quite fond of Romans and indeed it is one of my favorite Letter’s of Paul here are a few passages for everyone to reflect on at the end of chapter 11

32 God has imprisoned all human beings in their own disobedience only to show mercy to them all.
33 How rich and deep are the wisdom and the knowledge of God! We cannot reach to the root of his decisions or his ways.
34 Who has ever known the mind of the Lord? Who has ever been his adviser?
35 Who has given anything to him, so that his presents come only as a debt returned?
36 Everything there is comes from him and is caused by him and exists for him. To him be glory for ever! Amen.

And a few more from chapter 12

3 And through the grace that I have been given, I say this to every one of you: never pride yourself on being better than you really are, but think of yourself dispassionately, recognizing that God has given to each one his measure of faith.
4 Just as each of us has various parts in one body, and the parts do not all have the same function:
5 in the same way, all of us, though there are so many of us, make up one body in Christ, and as different parts we are all joined to one another.
6 Then since the gifts that we have differ according to the grace that was given to each of us:

All of Paul’s letters are great works of theology, inspired writings to different peoples for different purposes. When studied with the full contents of Holy Scripture and how they enhance and clarify other teachings found in the Gospels, they are absolutely priceless. Thank God they were preserved.

 

[CentralFLJames]

If you say so; I won’t argue more than on the topic, i should you the truth and you reject it…so we move onward.

But your personal “truth” is not self-evident and an argument from silence and a failure to address the rebuttal is not convincing. We move - but do not progress.

Back peddling, semi-admission I was correct.

You just killed your own position since God is the only supernatural deity and the only one with a capacity to impute anything onto man.

I dare say this is really specious reasoning and a strawman. Did you mean to imply that God imputed original sin and our fallen nature onto man?

While tis true that God creates and gives life it is also true that God builds on the original damaged template of our first parents. As such we are created in a context that is anchored to our ancestral transgressions and arrive into this world with a wounded nature. Part of our surviving God-given nature is an innate ability to choose habits and disciplines. Humility is one such chosen habit that becomes a natural virtue. While God can certainly enhance our humility supernaturally with various helps (e.g. actual grace) it is in general an elective virtue that is dormant in our human nature that requires self-discipline and focused will to bring forth. If this were not so it would be impossible for anyone to follow scripture and be humble of heart by an act of freewill. But this can’t be true since that implies that God creates some people to be proud and arrogant out of the womb and preordains some to sin. This is a violation of God’s nature. Ergo - my position remains very viable.

You don’t mean to imply that God imputes sin in a cooperative sort of participation do you?

James

 

[Masters_Servant]

Maybe I stated it wrongly. What I read from Charles Stanley’s book, “Eternal Security” is that once a person truly accepts Christ as Lord and Savior at one point in his life, then that person is saved, regardless whether s/he totally abandons the Faith thereafter. That’s the part that I don’t totaly agree with. I was even surprised when I read that because that is not what we were taught in our church nor what I believein based on my studies, specifically, from Wayne Grudem’s and Louis Berkhoff’s books on Systematic Theology. I just assumed that all Baptists agree with the teachings of Dr. Charles Stanley. I like most of his teachings, in fact, he is my favorite preacher. However, that is just one area that I do not agree with him.

Charles Stanley is “weak” in my opinion. He is the man that swore before his congregation that if he and his ex-wife were unable to reconcile their marriage that he would step down from the pulpit. Did he? No. Why? You will have to ask him that. His theology for the most part is good, but the preacher of God is held to a higher standard as written in Scripture, this man lied before his congregation and the world.

If I had to put a measure on his depth of teaching from low (I’ll get the basics) to medium (I’ll move beyond the basics and into more complexity of Gods character and attributes and the culture surrounding Jesus day) to deep (Way beyond basic, steeped into all aspects of NT teaching with relevant cultural and historical aspects embedded deeply into the Word of God), he would fit in the medium category, again in my opinion and I have listened to him many times; especially when I was new in Christ. I have not listened to him in at least 4 years and when I see him on TV I will tune him out.

He has obviously been a blessing to you and many others for that matter; so as long as Christ is preached, then that is great - just not for me.

 

[Masters_Servant]

BTW - many Southern Baptists do in fact teach that once one professes their faith they are in fact “saved” and sin no longer exists in anything that they can do as a saved individual. Most of course do not try to test that theory by consciously sinning but there are quite a few who do not worry in the least if they do sin since they feel they are exempted from the penalty of sin since its all been foreseen and automatically forgiven one time for all time. This is of course one of the most deadly and vile lies ever to be propagated in the name of Christianity. We are called to repent - not just one time - but our entire lives - every day and every hour - and to request forgivness and God’s Mercy each and every time we do sin gravely.

James

:tsktsk:

 

[Masters_Servant]

All of the ones that God gives you to do. (In the case of a baby who dies after baptism, the number is 0. In the case of a healthy person who lives to be more than 100 years old, the number could be in the millions.)

How many has God given you to do and how have you done with that? How far up the ladder have you gone so far? Is God pleased with your works and how do you know?

 

[Masters_Servant]

Christ died to make it possible. He didn’t die to “assure” us of anything. If we obey His laws, then we are saved by His death on the Cross. If we disobey Him without ever repenting, confessing, and changing our lives, then no amount of Him dying on the Cross can do anything for us.

John 3:16 contradicts your position, not to mention the entire gospel message.

1 john 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Think you know, hope you know, maybe you will know? Nope; so you WILL KNOW; if you do not know for sure, then what is the problem? Good question? hope everyone finds out the answer.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Masters Servant I see you are quite fond of Romans and indeed it is one of my favorite Letter’s of Paul here are a few passages for everyone to reflect on at the end of chapter 11

32 God has imprisoned all human beings in their own disobedience only to show mercy to them all.
33 How rich and deep are the wisdom and the knowledge of God! We cannot reach to the root of his decisions or his ways.
34 Who has ever known the mind of the Lord? Who has ever been his adviser?
35 Who has given anything to him, so that his presents come only as a debt returned?
36 Everything there is comes from him and is caused by him and exists for him. To him be glory for ever! Amen.

And a few more from chapter 12

3 And through the grace that I have been given, I say this to every one of you: never pride yourself on being better than you really are, but think of yourself dispassionately, recognizing that God has given to each one his measure of faith.
4 Just as each of us has various parts in one body, and the parts do not all have the same function:
5 in the same way, all of us, though there are so many of us, make up one body in Christ, and as different parts we are all joined to one another.
6 Then since the gifts that we have differ according to the grace that was given to each of us:

All of Paul’s letters are great works of theology, inspired writings to different peoples for different purposes. When studied with the full contents of Holy Scripture and how they enhance and clarify other teachings found in the Gospels, they are absolutely priceless. Thank God they were preserved.

I do not know or see that you were trying to make a specific point, but one of the primary issues within this text is the demonstration of God’s mercy and without allowing sin, then God would not be able to show that He is the God of Mercy and receive the glory that is due to His name.

 

[Masters_Servant]

But your personal “truth” is not self-evident and an argument from silence and a failure to address the rebuttal is not convincing. We move - but do not progress.

I dare say this is really specious reasoning and a strawman. Did you mean to imply that God imputed original sin and our fallen nature onto man?

While tis true that God creates and gives life it is also true that God builds on the original damaged template of our first parents. As such we are created in a context that is anchored to our ancestral transgressions and arrive into this world with a wounded nature. Part of our surviving God-given nature is an innate ability to choose habits and disciplines. Humility is one such chosen habit that becomes a natural virtue. While God can certainly enhance our humility supernaturally with various helps (e.g. actual grace) it is in general an elective virtue that is dormant in our human nature that requires self-discipline and focused will to bring forth. If this were not so it would be impossible for anyone to follow scripture and be humble of heart by an act of freewill. But this can’t be true since that implies that God creates some people to be proud and arrogant out of the womb and preordains some to sin. This is a violation of God’s nature. Ergo - my position remains very viable.

You don’t mean to imply that God imputes sin in a cooperative sort of participation do you?

James

Now you change the topic to imputation of original sin, which has nothing to do with the discussion and is actually a little offensive to me to imply that I would mischaracterize the nature of God.

But i agree we need to move on and apart; i can’t carry on a real discussion with you; no offense just some people cannot discuss issues together without getting personal in a negative way and you & I cannot seem to avoid this; so I believe it is best if we just part company, so to speak. I did enjoy talking with you at a more impersonal level. I wish you all the best in your walk.

MS

 

[Bengoshi]

All of the ones that God gives you to do. (In the case of a baby who dies after baptism, the number is 0. In the case of a healthy person who lives to be more than 100 years old, the number could be in the millions.)

How sad this is… I mean, a Catholic could live all his life in anxiety worrying if he has done enough good works to earn him his salvation. I wouldn’t call that living life to the full…

 

[Masters_Servant]

Mark01 & jmcrae

I am leaving this thread, so if you want to follow up on any comments or have any additional questions, then send me an email and I will respond to you there.

Thanks,

MS

 

[Bengoshi]

Christ died to make it possible. He didn’t die to “assure” us of anything. If we obey His laws, then we are saved by His death on the Cross. If we disobey Him without ever repenting, confessing, and changing our lives, then no amount of Him dying on the Cross can do anything for us.

Peter 2:24 - “He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness.”

Psalm 8:3-4 - “When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place, what is man that You are mindful of him, the son of man that You care for him?”

Ephesians 2:1,4-5 - “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins… But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved.”

2 Timothy 4:8 - “Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day — and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for His appearing.”

1 John 5:13 - “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

 

[CentralFLJames]

i clearly said i was not implying you were not a godly person, but your understanding of the Scripture is tainted by human understanding, we all have that issue it is just a matter to what extent. This is why the understanding of the Sovereignty of God in all things needs to be understood in detail to have a better understanding of the Scripture. We are all at different places i our walk; so take no offense and just continue to grow - that’s all. How do you grow; through His word.

Well MS, I see this as an admission that sola scripture, “by scripture alone” is defunct. Why should anyone trust their own fallable read of scripture when you just said that human understanding of scripture is tainted by human understanding? Am I understanding your logic or am I defective in presuming that line of reasoning can ever reach closure without also claiming we can’t possibly discuss anything and understand each other since we are all trained in our human reasoning? Is this an admission that you believe in the Protestants doctrine of Total Depravity? And if so - how do you know that you have escaped your depravity in this line of reasoning? Can you trust yourself with anything?

i
The more you speak on humility; the more the human perspective is showing. Mary was humble before God because God first revealed Himself to her, which she gladly denied herself in favor of God and His purpose, but it is God that purposed it in the first place.

The more you speak the more you convince me that you imagine that you have somehow escaped your own humanity and must also think you have greater insight that anyone else. How do you know that this is not just hubris raising its ugly head and that you are not just deluding yourself? Isn’t this the same thing that Protestants (non-catholics) rejected about the Catholic pope - that the pope is human and therefor unable to rightly divide scripture and teach it infallabily? By what line of reasoning can you convince us that you are more qualified than the pope to teach scripture? Don’t you think that scripture was written for human beings?

Mary was humble long before the Angel Gabriel approached her. You don’t think she got “full of grace” all of a sudden at the instant that the Angel visited her do you?

Mary was both “full of grace” and humble all her life.

i
Humility is so valued by God because it is the path to God; the proud will never see heaven. Christ is our example of the purest form of humility; He gave himself completely in obedience to the Father; true Christians have reached the point of denying self in favor of Christ and accepting the gift of salvation; exactly what Mary had done prior to any notion she would be the Christ bearer.

Bravo - we agree. But she was more than just the Arc of the New Covenant (as you say “Christ Bearer”). We title her “Mother of God” in recognition that Jesus was God in the flesh .

Here we agree that you do not believe God made her humble, but He did. cut No one ever choose God unless He first choose them. Likewise, you could not love god unless He first set His love on you. He is sovereign in ALL things.
cut

We don’t disagree that God is sovereign and loved us first. But you say too much in implying that God’s love is conditional.

1 John 4:19 We love because he first loved us,
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice there - God loved** the world** - that means EVERYONE - sinners all.

God draws all men to Himself - it is man who turns away and refuses to reciprocate due to His sins and His shame - which comes from pride in the recognition that a sinner can not dare approach such majesty with less than a pure heart or a desire to repent.

This is an error in theology; god desires all would be saved, but what He purposes always comes to pass. If He purposed all to be saved, then all would be saved - He is sovereign in ALL things. Again another misunderstanding of the nature of God; He does not harden the heart in the human thinking of the term hardened; we all have hardened hearts, which is why when one is received by God He gives them a heart of flesh. Pharaoh was hardened in the sense that He, God, did not reveal Himself to Pharoah and unless He reveals Himself, then no one would seek after God according to the Word of God.

I think you are creating false dichotomies by using your own semantics - the word “purposed” is not normally used in Catholic theology so I have to guess at what you mean. God’s will is that all men be saved without partiality. I think you are showing your calvinist double-predestiny errors in theology by suggesting that God not only wills but damns some souls a priori to hell. This is a very grave error in theology and not a thing that any apostle or Jesus ever taught.You can find some scripture support for it but there are plenty of other scripture verses which reject this bad theology. God forces no one to love Him. He wills that all do - but **does not **flood any soul with irresistible grace to force it.

You are also wrong about Pharaoh. God manifest Himself to Pharaoh by the conditional afflictions He visited upon him. By your line of reasoning all of the Jews except Moses could not love God since God did not appear to them in person viz the burning bush as He did with Moses. This is circular and specious reasoning.

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Free will is a topic that needs great depth in understanding of Gods nature, attributes, purpose of creation and relationship to humans coupled with a in-depth understanding on the nature of sin. It is not a topic we are ready to plunge into. I will say this much; in the sovereignty and purpose of His creation there are severe limits that humans have on free will because of man’s sin nature.

Fortunately Catholics have an extremely advanced and deep theology and do in fact understand much about God’s nature, and our relationship with God and the workings of grace etc. This is our legacy from a 2,000 year old people who God has blessed with large numbers of gifted men such as Aquinas, Bonaventure, Augustine and 33 (to date) doctors of the Church and thousands of saints. If you would like a good read on these topics I recommend reviewing them here: newadvent.org/

Permission to erase this from Scripture? “What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

God speaks for Himself on that topic.

Jesus also asked rhetorical questions like Paul does in Romans 9:22-29. Asking the question sets the context - the message is clear - “the creature is not to question God in matters that are God’s alone”. Notice that Paul does not anwer His own question but suggests that its a thing not for us to know - it is for God to know who is saved or not.

It is Protestants who have over read this scripture to try to speak for God on the matter of predestiny in their quest to find a way to circumvent the necessity for being a part of Christ’s Church. But this area of theology has always been sublime and a paradox - way over the heads and deapth of rebellious heretics’ capacity to fathom. It is a wild speculation of scripture to dare to answer Paul’s question in the affirmative when its not taught. Jesus did the same thing in the verse where Peter asks about the fate of the beloved apostle John. But Jesus rebukes him with a rhetorical question and gives no answer. And we know that John dies in old age and is not spared death as was rumored:

*John 21:22-23 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?” *

No comment.

Chicken?

*1 Peter 3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; *

James

 

[Bengoshi]

John 3:16 contradicts your position, not to mention the entire gospel message.

1 john 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Think you know, hope you know, maybe you will know? Nope; so you WILL KNOW; if you do not know for sure, then what is the problem? Good question? hope everyone finds out the answer.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Peter 2:24 - “He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness.”

Psalm 8:3-4 - “When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place, what is man that You are mindful of him, the son of man that You care for him?”

Ephesians 2:1,4-5 - “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins… But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved.”

2 Timothy 4:8 - “Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day — and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for His appearing.”

1 John 5:13 - “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

These are good verses but the NT ones are all addressed to Christians who are already baptised and received into the Catholic Church. Baptism removes the stain of sin so they are in fact on the narrow pathway to salvation. All of these who died in grace attained the salvation that was promised.

To backsliders and those not yet baptised into the Church the apostle warns us:
*
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Rev 2:16 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name
of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.

Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5 - again, this shows people confessing their sins before others as an historical practice (here to John the Baptist).

1 Tim. 6:12 - this verse also refers to the historical practice of confessing both faith and sins in the presence of many witnesses.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess are sins, God is faithful to us and forgives us and cleanse us. But we must confess our sins to one another.
Don’t make the mistake of thinking Repentance is a one time event. We are called to repent every day of our life so that we can strive to be perfect as commanded.

Matt 5:48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

James

 

[Bengoshi]

The more you speak the more you convince me that you imagine that you have somehow escaped your own humanity and must also think you have greater insight that anyone else. How do you know that this is not just hubris raising its ugly head and that you are not just deluding yourself? Isn’t this the same thing that Protestants (non-catholics) rejected about the Catholic pope - that the pope is human and therefor unable to rightly divide scripture and teach it infallabily? By what line of reasoning can you convince us that you are more qualified than the pope to teach scripture? Don’t you think that scripture was written for human beings?

This is a fallacious argument, appeal to authority.

[/quote]

• that means EVERYONE - sinners all.

I think you are creating false dichotomies by using your own semantics - the word “purposed” is not normally used in Catholic theology so I have to guess at what you mean. God’s will is that all men be saved without partiality. I think you are showing your calvinist double-predestiny errors in theology by suggesting that God not only wills but damns some souls a priori to hell. This is a very grave error in theology and not a thing that any apostle or Jesus ever taught.You can find some scripture support for it but there are plenty of other scripture verses which reject this bad theology. God forces no one to love Him. He wills that all do - but **does not **flood any soul with irresistible grace to force it.

Calvinist theology is valid. It is indeed supported by Scripture. It is hard to accept but nevertheless a very plausible position. Read Romans 9 and Ephesians 1:4-8 again.

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