Invisable Church

[Montie_Claunch]

My Aunt is one of those Hard-Core Christs’ Church is an invisable church and totally rejects the idea of Christ having a vidsable Church as really an attempt by an “Institustion” to put themshelves on par with God. I am compiling scripture with regard to there being only One Holy Chatholic Church but, I am trying to figure out how to properly say it without pushing the wrong buttons and the gaurd goes up for good? How would you talk to a Mid-aged Protestant Housewife about this? Thanks and God bless.

 

[LittleDeb]

I struggle with how to present this one too. When you figure it out, please let me know. My friend even has a guy he refers to as “invisible church dude.” They have lots of talks and have yet to come to a consensus.

 

[LittleDeb]

You know after thinking on it… John Marignoni’s talk on One Church was helpful for me to listen to. It’s free but support him if you can. biblechristiansociety.com/account/download?return=%2Fdownload%2Fmp3%2Fone_church.mp3

The only thing I don’t recommend is to do the flipping through the Protestant’s Bible looking for the list of essentials and non-essential doctrines. It gets a laugh, but it would probably close the door here. My Evangelical friend was open to listening to it, but not all are ready for it.

Listen to it about ten times yourself, then decide if your aunt might be open to it.

 

[elvisman]

My Aunt is one of those Hard-Core Christs’ Church is an invisable church and totally rejects the idea of Christ having a vidsable Church as really an attempt by an “Institustion” to put themshelves on par with God. I am compiling scripture with regard to there being only One Holy Chatholic Church but, I am trying to figure out how to properly say it without pushing the wrong buttons and the gaurd goes up for good? How would you talk to a Mid-aged Protestant Housewife about this? Thanks and God bless.

Montie -
I would remind her what Jesus said in Matt. 5:14-16:

***"You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. ******Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house. ***
Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father. "

This “invisible Church” nonsense is the only way to rationalize Protestantism.

 

[RCCDefender]

If the Church is an invisible body of believers then where does she suggest that someone turns in regards to Mat 18:16-17 “If he does not listen take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.” I think she’d be hard pressed to tell an invisible church of believers - she’d have to know how to contact every single one and they’d all have to be in agreement as to what to do about it. I’m pretty sure that in all the world the ‘invisible church of believers’ won’t be able to come to an agreement. I’m sure you’ve already thought of this. I don’t know of a good way to just bring it up, so I’m probably of no help…

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

As a middle age protestant housewife who believe’s the same way, your probably wasting your time. Just like it is difficult to talk with the CC about the whole body of believers being the church not an institution. I think this is an argument neither one of you will win. I think this will be frustrating and fruitless unless she is open to what you have to say. Why do you want to have this conversation with her anyway? If she is just as passionate as you on her beliefs this will be a topic not worth fighting over.

Just for the record Im not looking to debate any one on this just some friendly advice from someone who sides with your aunt.

God Speed

AFH

 

[ALLFORHIM]

If the Church is an invisible body of believers then where does she suggest that someone turns in regards to Mat 18:16-17 “If he does not listen take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.” I think she’d be hard pressed to tell an invisible church of believers - she’d have to know how to contact every single one and they’d all have to be in agreement as to what to do about it. I’m pretty sure that in all the world the ‘invisible church of believers’ won’t be able to come to an agreement. I’m sure you’ve already thought of this. I don’t know of a good way to just bring it up, so I’m probably of no help…

Hi,
That piece of Scripture you are referring to is for church discipline for someone who is openly sinning and needs to be rebuked. Im not sure why this would defend this particular topic.

 

[jemfinch]

Hi,
That piece of Scripture you are referring to is for church discipline for someone who is openly sinning and needs to be rebuked. Im not sure why this would defend this particular topic.

If the Church is invisible, how can it discipline?

Montie: I’d ask your friend how an invisible church can function as the pillar and foundation of truth. If she says it can’t, then the concept violates 1 Timothy 3:15; if she says it can, then ask her to explain the mechanism, and whether it involves all members of the invisible church being correct (and in agreement, it goes without saying) on all matters of essential doctrine.

Jeremy

 

[VociMike]

What good is an invisible Church? What would be the point?

 

[momstheword]

I’m smack in the middle of the same discussion. The protestant thesis being presented to me is that each individual church is self-governing, and if doctrines of one church go astray then the other autonomous churches are protected since they are not being “controlled” by the church in error. She asserts that this is how it was from apostolic times.
Where are the papers and records in support of this? Funny, she also says we are not bound by the 10 Commandments, so what I would like to know how early Christians who didn’t have a Bible, and were not required to go to church were EVER to learn the Word of God?
I wish I had the time to go through early church documents and create an undisputed timeline of the evolution into (what we now call) the Catholic Church.
What was the need for the Council of Jerusalem, or the other early church councils if there was no need for unity? My protestant likes to say the subject of these councils was the one necessary doctrine, the Divinity of Christ, and that no other doctrines matter.

 

[scylla]

The concept of an invisible Church is a way of denying that truth matters for Christians.

It is necessary if you are going to reject a unified Church with Authority. Either that or an apostacy theory like the Mormons.

If truth does matter then it should be known and unified as a belief system that is not invisible. (if it was invisible you wouldn’t know it was there)

So if I am to start up my own personal Church, (ala Chuck Smith) either I have to say it is the new true Church, or it is somehow part of an invisible Church which is unified in its belief of Jesus, everything else is non-essential except what I define as essential.

I am not sure if someone who investigates the origin of their Church believes this in their heart, but defends it to gain respect and maintain their belief. Usually people will admit that their system is flawed, but they say, so is everyone else. So it is good enough to get them to Heaven, so why worry.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[ALLFORHIM]

What good is an invisible Church? What would be the point?

Hi,

Well technically the body of believer’s is not invisable. The body is anyone who believes in Jesus Christ. We are to be a visable light of Christ. When people see us they should be able to see that we are followers of Christ by our actions and our words. Unfortunately that does not always happen. So anyway, discipline is done to believers by believers in a church(any building that follows Christ and His teachings)As we know, not all churches do that very well. The churches who follow biblical principles are the ones in my opinion are the ones who follow Christ.
All churches,including the CC, have people who are not believers (including mine). The believers that are in those churches are the ones that need to STAND OUT for Christ and be a good role model.
Im not sure if I explained it well enough. Maybe another will come along and do a better job.
So, to sum it up, we(believer’s) are not invisable unless we choose to be.

 

[Erich]

You might find some of the verses at ScriptureCatholic.com’s The Church is Visible and One to be convincing.

 

[RCCDefender]

So, if say, I’m a Baptist, I know the infant baptism is wrong. My friend “Tim” is Presbyterian and was baptised as a baby. My Baptist friends and I tell him he is wrong, that baptizing babies is a sin. He won’t listen. So where is the church we are supposed to take him to in accordance with Mat 18:16-17? Both the Presbyterian and Baptist churches follow Christ and his teachings, so which one is right? They can’t both be right…there is only one truth. Which one is the church that Paul called the Pillar and Bulwark of truth??

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You might find some of the verses at ScriptureCatholic.com’s The Church is Visible and One to be convincing.

Hi,
Thank you for the link. I could counter all of those Scripture but Im not because honestly I dont have time and it would be pointless. Im sure it is all the same ones we have all heard before anyway. Really what we are then debating is intrepretation. I will not try to convince you of what I believe because you believe the CC intrepretations and that is fine with me.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

So, if say, I’m a Baptist, I know the infant baptism is wrong. My friend “Tim” is Presbyterian and was baptised as a baby. My Baptist friends and I tell him he is wrong, that baptizing babies is a sin. He won’t listen. So where is the church we are supposed to take him to in accordance with Mat 18:16-17? Both the Presbyterian and Baptist churches follow Christ and his teachings, so which one is right? They can’t both be right…there is only one truth. Which one is the church that Paul called the Pillar and Bulwark of truth??

Hi,
I would simply say take it to the Scriptures and what do they say. There are no Scriptures that directly say anything about baby baptism. We are off topic and I dont like to hijack threads. So, my answer is study out the Scriptures. That is my Final answer.

 

[VociMike]

Hi,

Well technically the body of believer’s is not invisable. The body is anyone who believes in Jesus Christ. We are to be a visable light of Christ. When people see us they should be able to see that we are followers of Christ by our actions and our words.

But what you say applies to individual believers, not to a single entity, The Church. In the Protestant view, it seems to me, the body of believers is invisible, as a body. Instead, in that view we see disconnected hands here, and feet there, and eyes and ears over there, all acting independently. I’m sure that doesn’t strike anybody looking on from the outside as “The Church”.

So again I ask, what good is an invisible Church (a term coined by Protestants, not Catholics), even with visible members?

 

[momstheword]

So if we have an invisible church then, no one is to blame, no one is accountable, and nothing anyone decides or does is unto a loss of salvation. How very Protestant.

 

[LittleDeb]

But what you say applies to individual believers, not to a single entity, The Church. In the Protestant view, it seems to me, the body of believers is invisible, as a body. Instead, in that view we see disconnected hands here, and feet there, and eyes and ears over there, all acting independently. I’m sure that doesn’t strike anybody looking on from the outside as “The Church”.

So again I ask, what good is an invisible Church (a term coined by Protestants, not Catholics), even with visible members?

I agree with this assessment. This has been what non-Christians have brought up to me, as a Catholic, is that The Catholic Church is the only one they can see. All of the others look like random groups with no unity. To be a teaching authority it must have some sort of structure, some sort of order. It must be visible and tangible.

This idea of invisible church is undermining all of Christianity to non-Christians. I have been told more often than not, “You guys don’t agree with each other so how can I believe any of you are right?” I counter with, “The Catholic Church agrees with Her authority.” The first question after that is usually, “HER?” That opens a big door to introduce them to THE Bride of Christ, His Church.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

But what you say applies to individual believers, not to a single entity, The Church. In the Protestant view, it seems to me, the body of believers is invisible, as a body. Instead, in that view we see disconnected hands here, and feet there, and eyes and ears over there, all acting independently. I’m sure that doesn’t strike anybody looking on from the outside as “The Church”.

So again I ask, what good is an invisible Church (a term coined by Protestants, not Catholics), even with visible members?

Hi,

Yes I totally understand where you are coming from. IMHO I think God sees us(believers) as a spiritual unity. As for what you are talking about-- that is why it is important for us to come together as christians not to debate each other over who is right and who is wrong. We should all focus on Jesus not on a church institution and I include protestants in this. Yes a church is important to belong to so we can fellowship with other believers. Dont get me wrong, belonging to a church body is very important. I just dont believe the RCC is the one and only church. However, I do not minimize its importance as an institution to teach Christ to people. I also think protestant churches are equally important to get the message out about Jesus Christ. I think both do a good job. I think as a society we could all do a better job. But that’s America for ya–unfortunately we are driven by our selfish ambitions. That is why believer’s(from all denoms) need to put themselves out there as a beacon of light for Christ–so the lost souls can see Jesus in us.