Invisable Church

[ALLFORHIM]

So if we have an invisible church then, no one is to blame, no one is accountable, and nothing anyone decides or does is unto a loss of salvation. How very Protestant.

Hi,
Oh NO. You should come to my church My minister holds each and every one of us acountable. Actually what I should say is that God holds each and every one of us accountable. To be honest, it really doesnt matter what a church says or does. God knows what is going on and NO ONE WILL GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING. As a protestant, I am fully aware that I may be able to run but I CANT HIDE from a HOLY GOD> I read the Scriptures. The point Im getting at is you dont need a church to hold you accountable, you have God that WILL hold you and I accountable.

 

[NotWorthy]

If the Church is an invisible body of believers then where does she suggest that someone turns in regards to Mat 18:16-17 “If he does not listen take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.”

All for Him,

Peace to you!!!

The only problem I have with your refutation of the above quote is, that the part where it includes 2 or 3 witnesses, is usually what other faiths refer to as the “Invisible Church”. “Where 2 or more are gathered in my name…”. So Matthew’s text shows that sometimes the invisible Church can not remedy a situation. What do you do when that applies? You must take it the Church that Christ left us (… and upon this rock, I will build My Church").

How about contraception? If I take it to some Churches, it’s OK. If I take it to the Catholic Church, uh-uh.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi,
Oh NO. You should come to my church My minister holds each and every one of us acountable. Actually what I should say is that God holds each and every one of us accountable. To be honest, it really doesnt matter what a church says or does. God knows what is going on and NO ONE WILL GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING. As a protestant, I am fully aware that I may be able to run but I CANT HIDE from a HOLY GOD> I read the Scriptures. The point Im getting at is you dont need a church to hold you accountable, you have God that WILL hold you and I accountable.

But the Church (at least our Church) says that to commit a mortal sin, you must KNOW that it is a mortal sin. If your preacher says that homosexuality is a sin, then can I just join the Lutheran Church if I’m gay, which I’m not (not that anything’s wrong with that…).

 

[Dale_M]

I recall, when I went through RCIA 30 years ago eek, that a distinction was made between the Church Visible and the Church Invisible.

Looking for this in the Catechism, I couldn’t find it. But I did find where a distinction is made between the Church as a visible body and as a spiritual body. They are in fact one in the same Church, but its possible to find distinct differences between those two elements.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

770
The Church is in history, but at the same time she transcends it. It is only "with the eyes of faith"183 that one can see her in her visible reality and at the same time in her spiritual reality as bearer of divine life.

The Church—both visible and spiritual

771
"The one mediator, Christ, established and ever sustains here on earth his holy Church, the community of faith, hope, and charity, as a visible organization through which he communicates truth and grace to all men."184 The Church is at the same time:

    * a "society structured with hierarchical organs and the mystical body of Christ;

    * the visible society and the spiritual community;

    * the earthly Church and the Church endowed with heavenly riches."

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9.htm#p1

So perhaps we shouldn’t be so hurried to dismiss the idea of the invisible church so long as well keep in mind that it can not be fully separated from the visible Church.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

All for Him,

Peace to you!!!

The only problem I have with your refutation of the above quote is, that the part where it includes 2 or 3 witnesses, is usually what other faiths refer to as the “Invisible Church”. “Where 2 or more are gathered in my name…”. So Matthew’s text shows that sometimes the invisible Church can not remedy a situation. What do you do when that applies? You must take it the Church that Christ left us (… and upon this rock, I will build My Church").

How about contraception? If I take it to some Churches, it’s OK. If I take it to the Catholic Church, uh-uh.

Hi Notworthy,
How are you? Its been awhile since weve talked. Anyway, in my church what that means(2 or 3 people)is that when you are rebuking someone and they do not listen then you take more people with you to further rebuke and then if they still wont listen then the church(governing body of the church)will discipline that person. This is usually done because someone is openly sinning and will not repent. So I guess I am agreeing with you( well except for the CC being the rock and foundation). But Im sure you already knew that

 

[LittleDeb]

I recall, when I went through RCIA 30 years ago eek, that a distinction was made between the Church Visible and the Church Invisible.

You might be remembering the distinctions of The Church Militant, The Church Suffering, and The Church Triumphant.

The only reference I know of using the term “invisible” is in The Creed. “…maker of Heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen…” Seen and unseen are a variation of visible and invisible.

I could be mistaken and maybe there are in fact others.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

But the Church (at least our Church) says that to commit a mortal sin, you must KNOW that it is a mortal sin. If your preacher says that homosexuality is a sin, then can I just join the Lutheran Church if I’m gay, which I’m not (not that anything’s wrong with that…).

Hi,
I know you know that I dont believe in mortal or venial sins. Sin is sin to me. Im sure everyone knows right from wrong. All they really have to do is read the bible and God will tell you what is sin. God is very clear what He does not approve of.
Sure in this day and age you can go to whatever church will accept you(meaning gay). God knows every man’s heart and motives. If a church is letting a person worship and be openly, actively gay then that church(the governing body) is allowing that person to sin. Im sure you agree we should not do that.

Peace
AFH

 

[havemercy]

Sin is sin to me. I

I’d really like someone to take a good shot at this kind of thinking. I hear it often from my Protestant friends and never know what to say. Does the Catechism treat this at all? I know St. Paul makes a distinction, but he doesn’t exactly go all-out in explaining why or how he makes that distinction (from what I remember).

Shalom,

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I’d really like someone to take a good shot at this kind of thinking. I hear it often from my Protestant friends and never know what to say. Does the Catechism treat this at all? I know St. Paul makes a distinction, but he doesn’t exactly go all-out in explaining why or how he makes that distinction (from what I remember).

Shalom,

Hi,
I know the CC doesnt believe this and I totally get where they do get the mortal sin. However, as I have been studying the bible, the only sin I can see that leads to death is total rejection of Jesus Christ. I am NOOO bible scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but when I read the Scriptures that catholics point out to me I just dont see it the same way. I pray about it and let the Holy Spirit teach me and to date I have been taught and lead by the Holy Spirit that all sin is unforgivable unless you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and that the work He did on the cross was enough to justify me of my sins and make me blameless before a Holy God. So, when I sin(which I do daily) I will be forgiven when I ask for forgiveness. I dont know if that really explains it all but that is the best I can do.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi Notworthy,
How are you? Its been awhile since weve talked. Anyway, in my church what that means(2 or 3 people)is that when you are rebuking someone and they do not listen then you take more people with you to further rebuke and then if they still wont listen then the church(governing body of the church)will discipline that person. This is usually done because someone is openly sinning and will not repent. So I guess I am agreeing with you( well except for the CC being the rock and foundation). But Im sure you already knew that

But what happens when the Truth changes, such as Contraception. Almost every faith condemned Contraception in the 1930’s. Now, nearly all of them feel it’s a private issue.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi,
I know you know that I dont believe in mortal or venial sins. Sin is sin to me. Im sure everyone knows right from wrong. All they really have to do is read the bible and God will tell you what is sin. God is very clear what He does not approve of.
Sure in this day and age you can go to whatever church will accept you(meaning gay). God knows every man’s heart and motives. If a church is letting a person worship and be openly, actively gay then that church(the governing body) is allowing that person to sin. Im sure you agree we should not do that.

Peace
AFH

Amen!!! But it sure sounds like the governing body of your Church is a Visible Church.

 

[NotWorthy]

I’d really like someone to take a good shot at this kind of thinking. I hear it often from my Protestant friends and never know what to say. Does the Catechism treat this at all? I know St. Paul makes a distinction, but he doesn’t exactly go all-out in explaining why or how he makes that distinction (from what I remember).

Shalom,

In Number 19, you see a difference in sins. Some of them can be forgiven, and some can’t.

In 1 John 5:16 tells us there is a deadly sin, and there is a non-deadly sin.

Sounds pretty consistent with Catholic Doctrine to me!!!

 

[momstheword]

Hi,
Oh NO. You should come to my church My minister holds each and every one of us acountable. Actually what I should say is that God holds each and every one of us accountable. To be honest, it really doesnt matter what a church says or does. God knows what is going on and NO ONE WILL GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING. As a protestant, I am fully aware that I may be able to run but I CANT HIDE from a HOLY GOD> I read the Scriptures. The point Im getting at is you dont need a church to hold you accountable, you have God that WILL hold you and I accountable.

So why can’t those protestants (I don’t know where you stand personally) who say the CC strayed into error in the Middle Ages (which it did in some practices, but not in doctrine) accept that God will hold those individuals responsible for their sins, for instance the sale of indulgences. Erasmus, Luther, Wycliffe, etc threw out the baby with the bathwater. If they tried to affect change and the church leaders didn’t listen, they will be punished and the faithful rewarded for persevering.
We will not abandoned the Bride of Christ because some priests have committed heinous crimes.

 

[Big_Dave]

So if we have an invisible church then, no one is to blame, no one is accountable, and nothing anyone decides or does is unto a loss of salvation. How very Protestant.

And if we don’t like the answer we can just change churches!!! I know, I have been a protestant all my life.

 

[Sabda]

Big_Dave,

Welcome home! :clapping:

What amazes me is how Protestants dance around the issue of doctrine. Contraceptive is a perfect example of this. In fact this was one of the first things that got Scott Hahn thinking about what was what in Christianity. There are so many issues that have come out since New Testament times that would have blown the apostle’s minds. Cloning, and IVF being two examples I can think of off the top of my head. It only makes since to have a visible unified authoritative Church to address these issues. Having an invisible unified authoritative Church is like having an invisible unified authoritative government. People have no problem excepting the fact that you need a visible unified government for authority but refuse to except the fact that you need a visible unified Church for authority.

 

[mdcpensive1]

The invisible church is not biblical. The Church that Christ started began with the calling of the decendants of Abraham to be His people through a series of Covenants. The Covenant with David was a “kingdom”, or a series of groups of nations as seen by the alliances and treaties by Solomon, David’s son. The Covenant was to show that Israel was the “first born” nation of all the nations and was to show all other nations what it meant to be the “Nation of Yahweh”. The other nations were to learn of God through observing Israel, the first born. This was the visible part of the plan. The new covenant is the same. It has a visible part. It is the New Jerusalem which has the Spiritual and Temporal side of it. The Spiritual side is where Christ reigns and the temporal side has the Church which is governed by the “Chair of Peter”, just as the Old Covenant had the “Chair of Moses”. Each Covenant had it’s governing body. Sanhedran and the Magesterium. If people want to know what God’s Church is, they can see it in the Catholic Church. It is the only one that is still here from the time of Christ and pronounced in the bible to not be defeated by the forces of evil.
Hope this helps
mdcpensive1

 

[NotWorthy]

The invisible church is not biblical. The Church that Christ started began with the calling of the decendants of Abraham to be His people through a series of Covenants. The Covenant with David was a “kingdom”, or a series of groups of nations as seen by the alliances and treaties by Solomon, David’s son. The Covenant was to show that Israel was the “first born” nation of all the nations and was to show all other nations what it meant to be the “Nation of Yahweh”. The other nations were to learn of God through observing Israel, the first born. This was the visible part of the plan. The new covenant is the same. It has a visible part. It is the New Jerusalem which has the Spiritual and Temporal side of it. The Spiritual side is where Christ reigns and the temporal side has the Church which is governed by the “Chair of Peter”, just as the Old Covenant had the “Chair of Moses”. Each Covenant had it’s governing body. Sanhedran and the Magesterium. If people want to know what God’s Church is, they can see it in the Catholic Church. It is the only one that is still here from the time of Christ and pronounced in the bible to not be defeated by the forces of evil.
Hope this helps
mdcpensive1

That was very, VERY, GOOD!!! Very well said!

 

[Sabda]

The invisible church is not biblical. The Church that Christ started began with the calling of the decendants of Abraham to be His people through a series of Covenants. The Covenant with David was a “kingdom”, or a series of groups of nations as seen by the alliances and treaties by Solomon, David’s son. The Covenant was to show that Israel was the “first born” nation of all the nations and was to show all other nations what it meant to be the “Nation of Yahweh”. The other nations were to learn of God through observing Israel, the first born. This was the visible part of the plan. The new covenant is the same. It has a visible part. It is the New Jerusalem which has the Spiritual and Temporal side of it. The Spiritual side is where Christ reigns and the temporal side has the Church which is governed by the “Chair of Peter”, just as the Old Covenant had the “Chair of Moses”. Each Covenant had it’s governing body. Sanhedran and the Magesterium. If people want to know what God’s Church is, they can see it in the Catholic Church. It is the only one that is still here from the time of Christ and pronounced in the bible to not be defeated by the forces of evil.
Hope this helps
mdcpensive1

I second NOTWORTHY. This is what I see in the Old Testament also.

 

[momstheword]

The invisible church is not biblical. The Church that Christ started began with the calling of the decendants of Abraham to be His people through a series of Covenants. The Covenant with David was a “kingdom”, or a series of groups of nations as seen by the alliances and treaties by Solomon, David’s son. The Covenant was to show that Israel was the “first born” nation of all the nations and was to show all other nations what it meant to be the “Nation of Yahweh”. The other nations were to learn of God through observing Israel, the first born. This was the visible part of the plan. The new covenant is the same. It has a visible part. It is the New Jerusalem which has the Spiritual and Temporal side of it. The Spiritual side is where Christ reigns and the temporal side has the Church which is governed by the “Chair of Peter”, just as the Old Covenant had the “Chair of Moses”. Each Covenant had it’s governing body. Sanhedran and the Magesterium. If people want to know what God’s Church is, they can see it in the Catholic Church. It is the only one that is still here from the time of Christ and pronounced in the bible to not be defeated by the forces of evil.
Hope this helps
mdcpensive1

This is the kind of brilliant understanding of Scripture I do not have. Hope I can take this and use it in my discussion with my friendly neighborhood Protestant.

 

[RCCDefender]

Hi,
That piece of Scripture you are referring to is for church discipline for someone who is openly sinning and needs to be rebuked. Im not sure why this would defend this particular topic.

HI ALLFORHIM,
The reason why I used this Scripture is to show that there must be a visible church entity that is authoritative in matters pertaining to the faith and morals of believers.

Hi,
I would simply say take it to the Scriptures and what do they say. There are no Scriptures that directly say anything about baby baptism. We are off topic and I dont like to hijack threads. So, my answer is study out the Scriptures. That is my Final answer.

And what the Scriptures say is to take it to the church. Since what I’m talking about is a visible vs. invisible church it does stay on topic. I was really just using baptism as an example because there are really divided opinions about it in different churches.

You said the “invisible” body of believers consists of some believers in every church, right? So if two (or more) believers from different denominations can’t agree on a certain doctrine of faith to whose church do they take the issue? One church’s governing body will say one thing about the issue another church will say the complete opposite. Whose church is right? Whose is the church that has the truth? How do you determine which church has authority over the others on the issue? The Bible says to take it to the church, but all the Christian denominations (and Christian believers) disagree with one another on different doctrinal issues. They can’t all be right. There is only one truth.

I guess I sound really repetitive, don’t I? I just can’t wrap my head around this whole issue of an “invisible” church of individual believers. I’m really not trying to start an argument.