IRA say 'Armed campaign is over'

[vern_humphrey]

Pondero:

No Vern, I mean a referendum of the six counties only.( I realize that you are getting in a dig against the British government who originally allowed six Northern counties to be part of the UK ) That is OK we all have our biases.

Kind of like you and I voting to on your fate – with only people living in my house being allowed to vote. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Pondero:

But, as a believer in democracy, if at any time any distinct group with a majority within a country which distinguishes itself by separate and distinct culture, language, religion or race wishes to break off from the mother country, then a referendum should in the interest of fairness be held and the vote respected.

If you believe in democracy, why is it you allow only those living in a gerrymandered area to vote?

Or, if that’s okay, why not allow a vote county-by-county? And city-by-city?

Two of the counties of Northern Ireland (Fermanagh and Tyrone) are majority Catholic, as is one of the two large cities (Derry.)

Why can’t they vote on joining the Republic?

Pondero:

I could point to Quebec in Canada as an example of that. The last referendum was very, very close and we could have lost them…( Seeing they get a very good deal from the federal government they want it both ways, for the goodies to continue coming **and **separation… but, that is another story.)

You see? Canada will allow one area to vote on its fate – why can’t Northern Ireland? Fermanagh and Tyrone, and Derry are like Quebec. Let them hold their own referendum.

 

[vern_humphrey]

3) Ireland has been given the dubious pleasure of being the only occupied European nation. Vern has already listed the various methods of oppressing Catholics. Job descrimination. Language discrimination. Disenfranchisement (up to 6 votes per person if you’re a Protestant).

I see I have left a misconception – the 6 vote limit is by district. While a property owner cannot have more than 6 votes in any one district, he can have up to 6 votes in every districts where he owns property.

In addition, corporations were given votes based on the book value of the corporation. These votes were cast by the Board of Directors.

Sir Basil Brooke could cast over 80 votes in any election.

And three generations of Catholics living in the same squalid hovel had to split a single vote between them.

In fact the triggering incident that led to the formation of NICRA came when a Catholic family was assigned an apartment by the local Housing Authority – allowing them to move out of a multi-generation household.

They moved some of their goods into the new apartment, went back for another load and when they returned found the RUC had thrown their goods out into the street. It appeared a “mistake” had been made and the apartment had been re-assigned to a single Protestant woman.

 

[vern_humphrey]

vern humphrey:

I see I have left a misconception – the 6 vote limit is by district. While a property owner cannot have more than 6 votes in any one district, he can have up to 6 votes in every district where he owns property.

In addition, corporations were given votes based on the book value of the corporation. These votes were cast by the Board of Directors.

Sir Basil Brooke could cast over 80 votes in any election.

And three generations of Catholics living in the same squalid hovel had to split a single vote between them.

In fact the triggering incident that led to the formation of NICRA came when a Catholic family was assigned an apartment by the local Housing Authority – allowing them to move out of a multi-generation household.

They moved some of their goods into the new apartment, went back for another load and when they returned found the RUC had thrown their goods out into the street. It appeared a “mistake” had been made and the apartment had been re-assigned to a single Protestant woman.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

rjs1:

nationalism of any sort can be destructive if it is not ballanced with a genuine love

of our fellow man… We have to stop excusing violence by blaming the other side.

Emphasis mine. Yes, as Catholics, we are called to temper the struggle for justice with mercy; truth with charity. But we are not called to decline the struggle for justice and truth outright. Pope Benedict has said that “Truth and charity coincide in Christ…Charity without truth would be blind; truth without charity… a clanging cymbal."

rjs1:

By supporting Franze’s desire for peace I am not “trying to start a fight”. That is very volatile language and not helpful.

I am willing to consider the possibility that I may have misunderstood your post. It seemed to me that Franze apologized and that Stiofan accepted his apology. It also seemed to me that you resurrected the disagreement. In any case, I apologize. Let’s move on.

RJS1:

I made no attempt to suggest that the Irish were English were freckles or that they should become part of one nation with England.

Becoming one nation with England was one – only one – of the possible interpretations of what Franze originally said. As I pointed out, part of the disagreement was a result of Franze’s non-nuanced way of writing. Franze and Stiofan resolved the issue between themselves. Now that’s cleared up. Let’s move on.

I also raised the possibility of England and Ireland collaborating within the EU – without unifying politically. Stiofan raised some cautions against any kind of collaboration; I remembered the incident involving the English requesting Irish ports during one of the World Wars and I retracted my suggestion. Now that’s cleared up. Let’s move on.

rjs1:

I was very careful NOT to say that one side or the other was wrong. Rather I made a point of saying that both sides had made mistakes and that we as Catholics should be sorry for our part in the conflict and aim for a better way.

Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Thou shalt not covet. As Catholics we are required to struggle for justice as well as repent for having broken a commandment as well as balancing justice with charity. The commandment which we may have broken – thou shalt not murder – must be understood in terms of the Church’s teaching on ‘just war.’

rjs1:

Have I told Ireland what to do?

Well, I think you have. I think you have given your preference without having walked in the other’s shoes. I think a consideration of ‘just war’ doctrine would be useful.

rjs1:

All I have said is that the ways of violence are not the best ways; particularly the ways of bombings, kneecappings and assassinations.

I agree. Violence is not the best way. How often in life do we actually get to take the best way,? We can only do the best we can, given what is in front of us to do. What were the possible ways? What was in front of us to do?

 

[Pondero]

Ani and Vern:

This topic has generated a lot of heat,and passion. I think we should all cool down, and try to look at what can be done now logically and practically to remedy the injustices of the past .

In the referendum I propose to be held every five years, to determine the fate of Northern Ireland, I envisage one vote per adult person. It is the only fair way to do it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Pondero:

Ani and Vern:

This topic has generated a lot of heat,and passion. I think we should all cool down, and try to look at what can be done now logically and practically to remedy the injustices of the past .

If you look back through this thread, I’ve already advanced a proposal.

The crux of the problem is the “Loyalist Guarentee.” That is the statement by the British government that “Northern Ireland will remain affiliated with Great Britain as long as the majority of the people of Northern Ireland want to be affiliated.” (My emphasis.)

It is this “guarentee” that gave the carte blanche to all the discriminatory practices employed by the Loyalists to ensure they would remain the “majority.” It is the root of the whole problem.

Note that Northern Ireland was gerrymandered to create a loyalist majority. Of course, in the process, the richest farmland was also kept (which is why Fermanagh and Tyrone, which are Catholic majority counties wound up in Northern Ireland) and to keep all the heavy industry (which is why Derry, with its Catholic majority wound up in Northern Ireland.)

Revoking the Loyalist Guarentee would go a long way toward solving the problem, putting the loyalists on notice that they must create a state where a minority can live comfortably while they are still in the majority.

If they want Northern Ireland to remain separate, they must create a government that is so fair no one wants to change it.

Pondero:

In the referendum I propose to be held every five years, to determine the fate of Northern Ireland, I envisage one vote per adult person. It is the only fair way to do it.

But why not county-by-county voting? What’s sacred about the artificial boundaries created in 1922?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pondero:

Ani and Vern:

This topic has generated a lot of heat,and passion. I think we should all cool down, and try to look at what can be done now logically and practically to remedy the injustices of the past .

In the referendum I propose to be held every five years, to determine the fate of Northern Ireland, I envisage one vote per adult person. It is the only fair way to do it.

1. Replace Gen de Chastelain with Lt Gen Dallaire on the Monitoring Committee for Disarming the IRA.
2. Disarm all paramilitary groups.
3. Repeal the Loyalist Guarantee.
4. Reform the Voting regulations.
5. Draft a new constitution.
6. Return Fermanagh, Tyrone, and Derry to the south.
7. Unify the north and south while allowing both to have their independent parliaments.
8. Draft strong anti-hate, anti-terrorist legislation.
9. Ban the parades.
10. Stir well and review every seven years.

 

[Pondero]

I think I would be content if every adult person in Northern Ireland could vote in a referendum to see if they wished to remain part of the UK or join Eire. After some thought I have no objection to it being done on a county by county vote and not in total of all the six county’s votes added together.

A simple majority would prevail. In practice this means that one or two counties would probably return to Eire after the first vote. This referendum should take place within a short time.
This like all suggestions is purely theoretical, but it should be aimed at by the British who currently have control.

I lack faith in negotiators or mediators. This struggle as gone on far too long for mediators to have any effect. The success or failure of the Northern Ireland peace process depends on the parties involved. the UK and the people of Northern Ireland.

Has anyone contemplated what would happen if Dublin said they didn’t want any part of the six countieshttp://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

[vern_humphrey]

Pondero:

Has anyone contemplated what would happen if Dublin said they didn’t want any part of the six countieshttp://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

That’s why the referendum should encompass the whole of Ireland.

The whole problem in modern times is that no one asked Ireland if Ireland wanted to be partitioned. It’s time to go to Ireland as a whole and ask what all the people want.

 

[STIOFAN]

Anyway somethings going on thats for sure, today with the anouncement of futher troop reductions.
Paisley is furious, and the rest of the Unionist population, it’s the RIR that are going, many of whom are made up of the old UDR.
One unionists today could only talk about job the “job loses” :crying: as for me Stiofan my heart is breaking, :bounce: 3,500 being scaled down.
And the army is taking down it’s watch towers in Divis flats Belfast, south Armagh (bandit country) and Derry, and in my own Fermanagh, but don’t hold your breath.
Let me know if you can watch the news on these links. rte.ie/news/

news.google.co.uk/news?q=bbc+news+northern+ireland&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=nn&oi=newsr

 

[vern_humphrey]

STIOFÁN:

Anyway somethings going on thats for sure, today with the anouncement of futher troop reductions.
Paisley is furious, and the rest of the Unionist population, it’s the RIR that are going, many of whom are made up of the old UDR.
One unionists today could only talk about job the “job loses” :crying: as for me Stiofan my heart is breaking, :bounce: 3,500 being scaled down.
And the army is taking down it’s watch towers in Divis flats Belfast, south Armagh (bandit country) and Derry, and in my own Fermanagh, but don’t hold your breath.
Let me know if you can watch the news on these links. rte.ie/news/

news.google.co.uk/news?q=bbc+news+northern+ireland&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=nn&oi=newsr

I’ll bet Paisley’s foaming at the mouth.

But I long ago said, “The Irish problem is an Irish problem. It can’t be solved in the United States or Great Britain.”

We have to set up conditions so the Irish can solve it – and that means without Big Brother backing up the Loyalists.

 

[Pondero]

I asked that question about Dublin not wanting the six counties with tongue in cheek. Of course they would want them.
vern humphrey:

That’s why the referendum should encompass the whole of Ireland.

The whole problem in modern times is that no one asked Ireland if Ireland wanted to be partitioned. It’s time to go to Ireland as a whole and ask what all the people want.

I don’t agree Vern. The referendum should be held for Northern Ireland only, county by county…

 

[vern_humphrey]

Pondero:

I don’t agree Vern. The referendum should be held for Northern Ireland only, county by county…

Why?

As I noted, nobody asked all the Irish if they wanted their island partitioned in 1922 – they just went ahead and did it.

If we want the Irish Problem solved, we need to empower the Irish to solve it.

 

[STIOFAN]

Pondero:

I think I would be content if every adult person in Northern Ireland could vote in a referendum to see if they wished to remain part of the UK or join Eire.

That has been seen to with the Good Friday agreement. cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/agreement.htm

 

[STIOFAN]

vern humphrey:

I’ll bet Paisley’s foaming at the mouth.

But I long ago said, “The Irish problem is an Irish problem. It can’t be solved in the United States or Great Britain.”

We have to set up conditions so the Irish can solve it – and that means without Big Brother backing up the Loyalists.

True and it was Bill Clinton that helped kick start it,and Senator George Mitchell needs a medal for his time here, along with many others.
Clinton went against the UK government of the day in granting Gerry Adams a visa to the USA, not surprising that Bill didn’t listen, the UK government wanted him to lose, so there was no love lost between him and John Major.
I often said although it’s up to the Irish to solve this, we did and do need an (name removed by moderator)ut from the US.
Why ? because I’ve seen talks after talks fail, people walking out, loyalist protests at Stormont changing government decisoins.
But not now, the government is doing what a government should do, and thats govern.
What I mean about outside help is, like someone chairing the discussion, and that is exactly what happened.
Oh well it’s too early to tell, but if everything goes according to plan, then Ireland is at a turning point, and I hope the point of no return in the right direction.

Slán leat

 

[vern_humphrey]

STIOFÁN:

I often said although it’s up to the Irish to solve this, we did and do need an (name removed by moderator)ut from the US.
Why ? because I’ve seen talks after talks fail, people walking out, loyalist protests at Stormont changing government decisoins.
But not now, the government is doing what a government should do, and thats govern.
What I mean about outside help is, like someone chairing the discussion, and that is exactly what happened.
Oh well it’s too early to tell, but if everything goes according to plan, then Ireland is at a turning point, and I hope the point of no return in the right direction.

Slán leat

It’s kind of like making a baby – the obstitrician can help, but most of the real work has to be done by someone else.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

I have to say I long ago – when Bill Clinton was still Attorney General of Arkansas – came to the realization that the strategy of blocking Sinn Fein from the political process was a loser.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pondero:

IThis like all suggestions is purely theoretical, but it should be aimed at by the British who currently have control.

On this we disagree.

Pondero:

The success or failure of the Northern Ireland peace process depends on the parties involved. the UK and the people of Northern Ireland.

The UK is not a party. Tell me something. What makes this Irish situation any different from the relinguishment of any of the other Commonwealth countries?

Pondero:

Has anyone contemplated what would happen if Dublin said they didn’t want any part of the six countieshttp://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Not to my knowledge. Have you?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

STIOFÁN:

Anyway somethings going on thats for sure, today with the anouncement of futher troop reductions.

You must be over the moon.
STIOFÁN:

One unionists today could only talk about job the “job losses”

The shoe on the other foot?

 

[Pondero]

vern humphrey:

Why?

As I noted, nobody asked all the Irish if they wanted their island partitioned in 1922 – they just went ahead and did it.

If we want the Irish Problem solved, we need to empower the Irish to solve it.

I don’t think so.The people of Northern Ireland, should be the only ones consulted as they are the only ones involved directly. The fighting, the murders, the hatred, the clashes between various para-military groups are in Northern Ireland, not in Eire. The people of Northern Ireland, all 1.7 million of them are divided by religion, Protestant against Catholics, and in numbers taken as a whole, the Protestants would be in a majority at present.

However, as I stated earlier, a county by county referendum vote ( one vote per adult person) would be fine. It would give the predominantly Catholic counties an opportunity to opt out and join Eire.

 

[Pondero]

Ani Ibi:

The UK is not a party. Tell me something. What makes this Irish situation any different from the relinguishment of any of the other Commonwealth countries?

No, of course the UK is not a political party but it is in control, and Northern Ireland is legally part of the UK. The difference is this between other parts of the former British Empire and Northern Ireland. A majority of the people in Northern Ireland wish to remain with the UK

.