Iraqi Archbishop Sends Message to Muslim Leaders for Ramadan

[thedavidwilson]

It is an orthodox Catholic position to call Ramadan a blessed month and the Quran holy? If the quran is holy does that mean it is from God? If so should we all be muslims then?

“not eating in public and dressing properly.”
As Catholics do we have obligations to obey sharia law? It seems according to the Archbishop we do…

ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=90733

2-September-2008 – Catholic News Agency

Iraqi Archbishop Sends Message to Muslim Leaders for Ramadan
Rome, Sep 2, 2008 (CNA).- The Archbishop of Kirkuk, Iraq, Louis Sako, addressed the city’s Islamic leaders yesterday on the occasion of the beginning Ramadan. During his speech, the prelate prayed for goodness, brotherhood and peace between Christians and Muslims around the world.

According to the Italian Bishops’ news agency, Servizio Informazione Religiosa, the archbishop opened his address by sending, “my beloved Muslim brothers and sisters, my most heart-felt congratulations and best wishes for the beginning of the blessed month of Ramadan.”

He continued, “As you know, Ramadan is an extended time of prayers, fasting and charity. It is a month of sacrifices and good deeds. As the ***holy Koran ***says, ‘Then shall anyone who has done an ounce of good see it! And anyone who has done an ounce of evil, shall see it’ (99:7-8).”

The prelate encouraged the leaders to “invoke God the Almighty that He may accept your devout obedience and ensure for the Iraqi nation the peace that is the foundation of goodness and brotherhood between us, and that He may remove violence, hostility and conflict from us.” He also called on Christians to “join their Muslim brothers, so that God will ensure peace and stability to all of us.”

The archbishop finished his statement by asking Christians to respect the Muslim devotions of fasting during this time by “not eating in public and dressing properly.”

“May God the Almighty bless us all, each other’s brothers and sisters,” the archbishop said.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

It is an orthodox Catholic position to call Ramadan a blessed month and the Quran holy? If the quran is holy does that mean it is from God? If so should we all be muslims then?

“not eating in public and dressing properly.”
As Catholics do we have obligations to obey sharia law? It seems according to the Archbishop we do…

It kind of seems you think that part of Christianity is to be mean to muslims. That eating in front of people who are fasting is okay, and being friendly and respectful to them is somehow wrong. Sorry, you’re wrong. Do as your bishop says. Love others and show them how Jesus taught us to act to our enemies.

Your contempt for muslims really has no place in Christianity.

 

[thedavidwilson]

It kind of seems you think that part of Christianity is to be mean to muslims. That eating in front of people who are fasting is okay, and being friendly and respectful to them is somehow wrong. Sorry, you’re wrong. Do as your bishop says. Love others and show them how Jesus taught us to act to our enemies.

Your contempt for muslims really has no place in Christianity.

We do not love them by encouraging them in a belief system that is not from God. Islam and Catholicism are not the same and cannot be reconciled. While we should allow them to practice their faith freely we should not call their fasts blessed and thier books holy. By doing this we are only reinforcing the lie that they believe in. If you believe it is not a lie then you are participating in a heresy called differentism. The bishop mentioned in your signature would know about that.

It is a work of mercy to admonish sinners. I do not see admonishment in this article but encouragement in their sin.

 

[b_justb]

Maybe there is a middle ground?

Sense this is from the Archbishop of Iraq, there is cultural context here. Sense the themes of Ramadan are not antithetical to Christianity, there is a chance at inter faith dialogue based upon similarities in faith traditions. Aren’t the ideas of “an extended time of prayers, fasting and charity” for Ramadan the same as for Great Lent? Can’t we use those good similarities to broker good will?

As far as not eating in public, it’s Iraq where the vast majorities are Muslims and will be fasting. Can’t this just be like a pastor reminding his flock in Israel not to be eating BLT’s in public so we don’t make others take offense unnecessarily?

I think this same message coming out of Denver CO about not eating in public would be off, but not coming out of Iraq.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Maybe there is a middle ground?

Sense this is from the Archbishop of Iraq, there is cultural context here. Sense the themes of Ramadan are not antithetical to Christianity, there is a chance at inter faith dialogue based upon similarities in faith traditions. Aren’t the ideas of “an extended time of prayers, fasting and charity” for Ramadan the same as for Great Lent? Can’t we use those good similarities to broker good will?

As far as not eating in public, it’s Iraq where the vast majorities are Muslims and will be fasting. Can’t this just be like a pastor reminding his flock in Israel not to be eating BLT’s in public so we don’t make others take offense unnecessarily?

I think this same message coming out of Denver CO about not eating in public would be off, but not coming out of Iraq.

I was really picking up on the fact that explicitly called the month of Ramadan a blessed month not the activties during that month. Also the fact that he calls the quran a holy book. I can’t see any middle ground there. Now he is in Iraq where his life the the lives of his flock are threatened daily by muslims so that circumstance might mitigate the sin but we should not propagate and encourage other false belief systems. Should I attend a satanic Mass to show solidarity and not to offend the sensibilities of the Satanists? No. They should be allowed to practice their “religion”, as long as they are not harming anyone, but as a Catholic I cannot attend or enable their activities lest I give creadbility to their false belief system.

What is this denver public eating thing?

Is there a big issue in Isreal about BLT’s? Is there violence and rioting and there is in muslim countries when they are not fully accomodated and other relgions are subjugated under Islam?

 

[Dale_M]

It is an orthodox Catholic position to call Ramadan a blessed month and the Quran holy? If the quran is holy does that mean it is from God? If so should we all be muslims then?

Yes, I think we Catholics can refer to Ramadan as a blessed month and to call the Quran holy.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

As the Catechism makes clear, Muslims are our brothers and sisters. They worship the same God that we do. They do not have the fullness of truth, however, so we shouldn’t become Muslims.

The bishop asking his followers not to eat in public during Ramadan is a courtesy extended to fellow Iraqis who are fasting during the daytime and don’t need extra temptation. He is being polite, which is not a bad thing

 

[thedavidwilson]

Yes, I think we Catholics can refer to Ramadan as a blessed month and to call the Quran holy.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

As the Catechism makes clear, Muslims are our brothers and sisters. They worship the same God that we do. They do not have the fullness of truth, however, so we shouldn’t become Muslims.

The bishop asking his followers not to eat in public during Ramadan is a courtesy extended to fellow Iraqis who are fasting during the daytime and don’t need extra temptation. He is being polite, which is not a bad thing

You should have quoted a little bit further:

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together *into his Son’s Church. * The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, *which alone saves *from the flood.334

Yes we must be compasionate to others. Every human being is our brother and sister. But the Catholic Church is the salvation. We will not encourage muslims to discover the fullness of the Truth in the Catholic Church by validating their belief system.

If you think the quran is holy, i.e. from God, you should read it sometime. Is the book of Mormon religion holy? What is I wrote a book that recycled parts the bible and mixed in a lot of lies, would that be holy? Holy things are from God. Asside from the fact that the quran copies parts of the bible how is it from God? Is it another testament?

 

[cathgal]

I agree that the Bishop shouldn’t add ‘holy’ to Quran. Just say ‘…the Quran says…’

Is this offensive to them putting it this way?

We know it ain’t holy so why mislead.

It’s enough that theirs is a false religion, no need to encourage it.

 

[Dale_M]

We will not encourage muslims to discover the fullness of the Truth in the Catholic Church by validating their belief system.

Okay, fair enough.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Didn’t Pope John Paul II visit a Mosque and he even knelt down and kissed the Koran?

He wasn’t embracing Islam, but respecting it, for the goodness it teaches, not the evil.

BTW, when it comes to violence against others, there isn’t a lot of difference between the Old Testament of the Bible and the Koran and over the course of history, there have been Christians who took the Old Testament literally and violently persecuted people.

Jim

 

[thedavidwilson]

Didn’t Pope John Paul II visit a Mosque and he even knelt down and kissed the Koran?

He wasn’t embracing Islam, but respecting it, for the goodness it teaches, not the evil.

BTW, when it comes to violence against others, there isn’t a lot of difference between the Old Testament of the Bible and the Koran and over the course of history, there have been Christians who took the Old Testament literally and violently persecuted people.

Jim

That was his personal actions. I believe they were wrong and not in line with orthodox Catholic teachings. The moral and theological teachings of the Church are infallible not its members, unless the pope is speaking ex cathedra.

Why not kiss and venerate hindu or budhist texts as well? We have something special in the Catholic Church and we should diminish that be telling people that their religions are just as good as Catholicism. They are not and we would not be looking out for thier eternal soul if we did so.

Your example of violence from the bible is a tu quoque fallacy and that is not the teachings of the Catholic Church. Whereas violence against non-muslims (until they convert or submit to islam) is an integral part of islam. This is evident in the quran, hadith, syrah, 4 schools of islamic jurisprudence, actions of muhammed and every islamic regime in existance today or in history.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

thedavidwilson;

That was his personal actions. I believe they were wrong and not in line with orthodox Catholic teachings.

Pope John Paul II was not orthodox Catholic?

The moral and theological teachings of the Church are infallible not its members, unless the pope is speaking ex cathedra.

True, and the Church also teaches that there are truths in other religions, and we should not reject them, just because they’re not Catholic. Truth is truth, regardless of which religion embraces it.

Why not kiss and venerate hindu or budhist texts as well?

Pope John Paul II met and prayed with the Dalai Lama and Hindu’s.

We have something special in the Catholic Church and we should diminish that be telling people that their religions are just as good as Catholicism.

Telling other people their religion is junk, does more harm than good. You will never draw people of other religions to even listen to what the Church teaches, with your attitude.

Your example of violence from the bible is a tu quoque fallacy and that is not the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Actually the Old Testament calls for stoning of adulterers and homosexuals. It teaches that we are not to sit with sinners or be among them. Various so-called Christians have used their literal interpretation to persecute people. The KKK is only one example.

Whereas violence against non-muslims (until they convert or submit to islam) is an integral part of islam.
This is evident in the quran, hadith, syrah, 4 schools of islamic jurisprudence, actions of muhammed and every islamic regime in existance today or in history.

This is the fundamentalist members of Islam teach, but not progressive Muslims who do not interpret the Koran literally.

Either way, Jesus calls us to love our neighbors and forgive our enemies. He didn’t place conditions on this.

The Archbishop of Iraq, lives among the good and bad of Islam. He’s trying to build a bridge so that Christians and Muslims can live in peace with each other, and unite in their efforts to stop hatred and violence.

Jim

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Why not kiss and venerate hindu or budhist texts as well? We have something special in the Catholic Church and we should diminish that be telling people that their religions are just as good as Catholicism. They are not and we would not be looking out for thier eternal soul if we did so.

No one here is saying that Islam is as good as Catholicism. I can’t even begin to imagine whats going on in your brain that would translate “show respect for others” to “all religions are equal”.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

From:

DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

1. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

Jim

 

[thedavidwilson]

No one here is saying that Islam is as good as Catholicism. I can’t even begin to imagine whats going on in your brain that would translate “show respect for others” to “all religions are equal”.

Calling the quran holy. What is your definition of holy? You can show respect to those individuals while not supporting thier false religion. What you are suggesting is akin to giving meth to a drug addict becasue you respect his choices. What you should do is point out in a charitable manner what he is doing is wrong and not enable his addiction.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Pope John Paul II was not orthodox Catholic?

His action of kissing/venerating the quran was not orthodox.

True, and the Church also teaches that there are truths in other religions, and we should not reject them, just because they’re not Catholic. Truth is truth, regardless of which religion embraces it.

The Church teached that there are aspects of THE Truth in other religions. When an archbishop calls the quran holy he venerates the whole book which is mostly lies. That is harmful to those muslims becasue it gives them the idea that islam and catholicism are compatible and you get the same place,heavan, by each religion. Folks in islam can be saved not BY that religion but IN that religion. Which is an important distinction.

Pope John Paul II met and prayed with the Dalai Lama and Hindu’s.

Was he saying budhist and hindu prayer? Did he call their religious texts holy? If so then he was not in line with catholic teaching.

Telling other people their religion is junk, does more harm than good. You will never draw people of other religions to even listen to what the Church teaches, with your attitude.

You should tell them their religion is junk in a charitable way. Just as you would tell an alcoholic his mis-use of alcohol is junk and is harmful. You do not tell him that his drinking is holy. That is a lie and Catholicism is the Truth.
You tell the muslims the Truth. It is up to God to draw them to it and open their hearts. The Bishop is not telling them the Truth but enabling the lie of islam.

Actually the Old Testament calls for stoning of adulterers and homosexuals. It teaches that we are not to sit with sinners or be among them. Various so-called Christians have used their literal interpretation to persecute people. The KKK is only one example.

Again a tu quoque fallacy. The KKK are just as wrong as muslims for using religion for violence. Last I checked they were not Catholic. The Catholic Church teaches that the OT was fullfilled by the NT. While the OT still contains the Truth it is a narrative and law for a particular time in our salvation history. As Catholics we live under the new convenant outlined in the NT. While the quran does preach this violence to non muslims and it is mainstream islamic thought that muslims must fight until islam reigns supreme.

This is the fundamentalist members of Islam teach, but not progressive Muslims who do not interpret the Koran literally.

That is excellent. That still does not negate what mainstream and classical islam teaches which is not moderate. Even if all of islam was moderate we should not call it holy becasue it is not from God. Or is it?

Either way, Jesus calls us to love our neighbors and forgive our enemies. He didn’t place conditions on this.

You do not love your neigbor or enemy by being complicit or supportive of thier sin. We are called to admonish (look up the catholic definition of this word) sinners in a charitable way and share the Truth with them. Not propagate their lies. That is what the bishop is doing when he calls the quran holy.

Again he might have a gun to his back when he said this. A silimar thing happened in Gaza when hamas forced christian leaders to voice support for them.

The Archbishop of Iraq, lives among the good and bad of Islam. He’s trying to build a bridge so that Christians and Muslims can live in peace with each other, and unite in their efforts to stop hatred and violence.

True. He needs to build a bridge to the Truth for these muslims. Regardless of whether they are peaceful or violent muslims their religion is a lie. He is jepardizing their souls by showing support for the lies.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II
ON THE OCCASION OF THE MEETING WITH THE EXPONENTS
OF NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS

Madras, (India)
Wednesday, 5 February 1986

Distinguished Friends,

1. I have been longing to visit India, the land of many religions and of a rich cultural heritage, and I have looked forward to this meeting. I am very happy to have this occasion of spiritual fellowship with you.

India is indeed the cradle of ancient religious traditions. The belief in a reality within man which is beyond the material and biological, the belief in the Supreme Being which explains, justifies, and makes possible man’s rising above all aspects of his material self – these beliefs are deeply experienced in India. Your meditations on things unseen and spiritual have made a deep impression on the world. Your overwhelming sense of the primacy of religion and of the greatness of the Supreme Being has been a powerful witness against a materialistic and atheistic view of life.

The Indian rightly thinks that religion has a profound meaning for him. His very being experiences impulses, instincts, questions, longings and aspirations which testify to the greatest of all human quests: the quest for the Absolute, the quest for God. In my first Encyclical after being elected Pope, I made reference to the fact that the Second Vatican Council’s Declaration on non-Christian Religions “is filled with deep esteem for the great spiritual values, indeed for the primacy of the spiritual, which in the life of mankind finds expression in religion and then in morality, with direct effects on the whole of culture” .

1. The Catholic Church recognises the truths that are contained in the religious traditions of India. This recognition makes true dialogue possible. Here today the Church wishes to voice again her true appreciation of the great heritage of the religious spirit that is manifested in your cultural tradition. The Church’s approach to other religions is one of genuine respect; with them she seeks mutual collaboration. This respect is twofold: respect for man in his quest for answers to the deepest questions of his life, and respect for the action of the Spirit in man.
   vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1986/february/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19860205_religioni-non-cristiane_en.html

Much more and worth reading.

Jim

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Calling the quran holy. What is your definition of holy? You can show respect to those individuals while not supporting thier false religion. What you are suggesting is akin to giving meth to a drug addict becasue you respect his choices. What you should do is point out in a charitable manner what he is doing is wrong and not enable his addiction.

What’s important is what the Archbishop meant by holy. My dictionary gives seven definitions:

1. specially recognized as or declared sacred by religious use or authority; consecrated: holy ground.
2. dedicated or devoted to the service of God, the church, or religion: a holy man.
3. saintly; godly; pious; devout: a holy life.
4. having a spiritually pure quality: a holy love.
5. entitled to worship or veneration as or as if sacred: a holy relic.
   6. religious: holy rites.
6. inspiring fear, awe, or grave distress: The director, when angry, is a holy terror.

My guess would be that he meant number 6 or possibly 1 or 2. The Koran is religious. It is dedicated to God. It has been declared sacred by millions of people.

You say you’re worried we’re feeding the Muslims drug habit by not arguing with them. Have you ever converted a muslim with your attitude? Maybe we need a count of who has converted more muslims, you or the Archbishop.

 

[thedavidwilson]

From:

Jim

hmmm…nothing about promoting the islamic relgion there. All it talks about is promoting The Truth of the Catholic Church regardless of what islam teaches (e.g. Jesus is a prophet). Calling the quran holy is a lie.

How is calling the quran holy the Truth?

 

[thedavidwilson]

What’s important is what the Archbishop meant by holy. My dictionary gives seven definitions:

My guess would be that he meant number 6 or possibly 1 or 2. The Koran is religious. It is dedicated to God. It has been declared sacred by millions of people.

You say you’re worried we’re feeding the Muslims drug habit by not arguing with them. Have you ever converted a muslim with your attitude? Maybe we need a count of who has converted more muslims, you or the Archbishop.

Perhaps you should stick with the Catholic definition. Its literal translation is ‘other than’. More commonly it refers to something from God. Is the quran from God?

You have another logical fallacy there canne ad populum. No matter how many muslims there are it has no bearing on the validity of islam.

Argueing and presenting the Truth (at least not promoting lies) is not the same thing.