Iraqi Archbishop Sends Message to Muslim Leaders for Ramadan

[thedavidwilson]

Much more and worth reading.

Jim

You should stick to quoting Catholic teaching. What a Pope,or any Catholic, says, unless it is the pope speaking ex cathedra, is not necessarily orthodox.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

thedavidwilson;

His action of kissing/venerating the quran was not orthodox.

Being Christian is Orthodox

The Church teached that there are aspects of THE Truth in other religions. When an archbishop calls the quran holy he venerates the whole book which is mostly lies.

The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

That is harmful to those muslims becasue it gives them the idea that islam and catholicism are compatible and you get the same place,heavan, by each religion.

No, it gives them the example of what it is to respect people of different religions.

Folks in islam can be saved not BY that religion but IN that religion. Which is an important distinction.

We can’t be saved by being Catholic either, only through Jesus Christ are we saved.

Was he saying budhist and hindu prayer? Did he call their religious texts holy? If so then he was not in line with catholic teaching.

See above.

You should tell them their religion is junk in a charitable way.

No thanks. I’ll follow the example of Pope John Paul II.

He’s going to be canonized and we’ll pray to him.

I hope this won’t upset you.

Again a tu quoque fallacy. The KKK are just as wrong as muslims for using religion for violence. Last I checked they were not Catholic.

I didn’t say they were, but then, there was a time the Catholic Church allowed slavery, because it was in the OT, and not prohibited in the NT. The point is that just as the Koran calls for violence against non-believers so does the OT. But neigther should not be taken literally, but understood in the context they were written.

The Catholic Church teaches that the OT was fullfilled by the NT. While the OT still contains the Truth it is a narrative and law for a particular time in our salvation history. As Catholics we live under the new convenant outlined in the NT. While the quran does preach this violence to non muslims and it is mainstream islamic thought that muslims must fight until islam reigns supreme.

The Koran’s teaching had to do with nonMuslims who were persecuting Muslims, in the first days of Muhammed. Those who take it literally today, and cause violence to anyone is in error, and there are many Muslim clerics who teach this.

You do not love your neigbor or enemy by being complicit or supportive of thier sin.

They sin by being Muslim?

We are called to admonish (look up the catholic definition of this word) sinners in a charitable way and share the Truth with them. Not propagate their lies. That is what the bishop is doing when he calls the quran holy.

See above, on holiness in other religions.

Again he might have a gun to his back when he said this. A silimar thing happened in Gaza when hamas forced christian leaders to voice support for them.

No, he just following the example of Jesus Christ, to love our neighbors.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You should stick to quoting Catholic teaching. What a Pope,or any Catholic, says, unless it is the pope speaking ex cathedra, is not necessarily orthodox.

So according to you, the Pope was not providing Catholic teaching.

Jim

 

[Neil_Anthony]

You should stick to quoting Catholic teaching. What a Pope,or any Catholic, says, unless it is the pope speaking ex cathedra, is not necessarily orthodox.

But what YOU say, on the other hand, is ALWAYS orthodox :whacky:

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Perhaps you should stick with the Catholic definition.

So now the Catholic church is in the business of defining what English words mean? I suppose you have a special catholic dictionary with all the words defined differently

 

[thedavidwilson]

So now the Catholic church is in the business of defining what English words mean? I suppose you have a special catholic dictionary with all the words defined differently

Words have meanings on how they are used and from what our perspective is. Whether we are aligned with the Truth these meanings may or may not be correct. What the Catholic Church consider’s holy is not the same as what islam considers holy.

Another example is the word Love in english. Latin had 5-6 diferent words for Love each with a different definition

Before we make judgments on what is right or wrong, or holy and unholy we must order ourselves to the Truth. Conscience does not exist in vacuum. It must be properly ordered. The quran is not holy in the eyes of the Catholic Church since it distorts the Truth and is not from God.

You can check out Catholic encyclopedia for more of the Catholic perspective:

home.newadvent.org/cathen/

 

[thedavidwilson]

But what YOU say, on the other hand, is ALWAYS orthodox :whacky:

Never said that. I look to the teachings of the Catholic Church for what is Orthodox.

The Athanasian Creed, which is approved teaching of the Catholic Church (i.e. infallable teaching) states some things about salvation and beliefs:

*Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this,…

And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved. *

newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm

If this is wacky to you or contradicts any of your beliefs or any actions of any members of the Catholic Church then there is an issue. These statements cannot be contradicted by new Church teaching because the Church is guided by God (Holy Spirit) and God does not contradict. If there is a contradiction then what contradicts this is not incommunion with the Catholic Church.

 

[thedavidwilson]

So according to you, the Pope was not providing Catholic teaching.

Jim

Depends on what he says. We are not guaranteed that any pope will be orthodox. There were some pretty bad popes in the past.

What we are guaranteed is that the Holy Spirit will guide the Chruch so that any official (i.e. not his personal opinion) Catholic teching that comes from a pope will not contradict the will and revealed teaching of God or previous teachings of the Chruch. I don’t think you have posted anything that is an official theological or moral teaching of the Church. These things would come ex cathedral (which has only been used a couple of times I think) or conclusions from a council that is approved by the pope.

JPII kissing the quran was a bad move. In the article you posted you should look carefully on what words are used. As in the catechism things are usually worded very carefully so Catholic Church does not support islam but the teachings in islam that align with Catholic teaching. Islam is still not from God and we should not delude muslims or ourselves by calling the quran holy.

In any case the source of your faith should not be the personal remarks, actions, or letters of any person, even a pope, but the documented teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Never said that. I look to the teachings of the Catholic Church for what is Orthodox.

The Athanasian Creed, which is approved teaching of the Catholic Church (i.e. infallable teaching) states some things about salvation and beliefs:

So I guess you would like to be Bishop of Iraq and write your own address to the muslims. Doesn’t seem likely that you’ll get the promotion any time soon, but why don’t you try your hand at it. Show us what you would have said to the muslims:

 

[matt1985]

It is important for the safety of Christians in Iraq that the church shows reverence to Islam and to muslims. I don’t have a problem with this at all really.

 

[thedavidwilson]

So I guess you would like to be Bishop of Iraq and write your own address to the muslims. Doesn’t seem likely that you’ll get the promotion any time soon, but why don’t you try your hand at it. Show us what you would have said to the muslims:

Wow you modernists really have big chips on your shoulders. When did I say I could do a better job than the Bishop? According to you I guess he should have said:

“I testify that there is no true god (deity) but God (Allah), and that Muhammad is a Messenger (Prophet) of God.”

That would have made the muslims happy.

 

[b_justb]

David,

What is it that you want? Do you want other CAF posters to agree with you? Or, would you like to affect what you would consider a positive change? I tried finding contact info for Archbishop Sako but all I could find is a blurb that says “contact the Archbishop through the Archdiocese of Kerkuk.” I have not been able to get a mailing address.

I think gripping about the wording that this (in my opinion awesome) Bishop said isn’t doing anything positive.

You do remember that that the old Archbishop of Iraq was murdered in the spring of 2008? Did you know that Archbishop Sako demanded and obtained a face to face meeting with Saddam when the good Bishop was denied reentry home after completing his doctorate in Rome? Because he had the courage to speak with Saddam one on one he was granted re-entry and immediately began preaching.

If you really want to voice your concerns with his use of the word “holy” when referencing the Koran then; tell him, not us.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Wow you modernists really have big chips on your shoulders.

Well, if you go on a Catholic site and start bashing the leaders of the Catholic church, what do you expect?

 

[thedavidwilson]

Well, if you go on a Catholic site and start bashing the leaders of the Catholic church, what do you expect?

Pointing out error is not bashing. The best Catholic is fallible.

Why be Catholic then? If islam, hinduism and other religions are holy and have blessed things then why exert all this effort to follow the tenets of our Church? Why not just joint the religion that is the easiest to follow. There is an absolute Truth in this world and it is not the holiness of a book written by Muhammed. What you are expressing is cultural/religious relativism. That is not the Truth. If the Truth does not matter then what does?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Pointing out error is not bashing. The best Catholic is fallible.

Why be Catholic then? If islam, hinduism and other religions are holy and have blessed things then why exert all this effort to follow the tenets of our Church? Why not just joint the religion that is the easiest to follow.

Those other religions are WRONG. You won’t be saved if you knowingly leave the true religion and turn away from Christ.

It’s just SOME of the things they do that are good. Like praying to God the Father and fasting. No one is saying they are just as good.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Those other religions are WRONG. You won’t be saved if you knowingly leave the true religion and turn away from Christ.

It’s just SOME of the things they do that are good. Like praying to God the Father and fasting. No one is saying they are just as good.

If islam is wrong then why is the quran “holy”? Is it OK to call the quran “holy”? If the book of a “WRONG” religion is not “holy” would you not be misleading when you say this?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

If islam is wrong then why is the quran “holy”? Is it OK to call the quran “holy”? If the book of a “WRONG” religion is not “holy” would you not be misleading when you say this?

Well… apparently YOU were misled, so there must be some danger of misleading people. I don’t know why he called it that. Was he just recognizing that its the ‘holy book’ of muslims? Is that just what its called in arabic in Iraq? I have no idea, but I’m sure he isn’t recommending the book to Christians. I suspect he was trying to convey respect for the good in their beliefs to foster harmony between the two religions.

 

[thedavidwilson]

I have no idea, but I’m sure he isn’t recommending the book to Christians.

He called the book holy. How is that not recommending it to folks (Catholics) who are suppose to model themselves as holy. There are some very unholy things in that book.

I suspect he was trying to convey respect for the good in their beliefs to foster harmony between the two religions.

Respect does not mean validating what they believe. Validating what they believe is actually disrespectful since by calling that book holy he is showing his approval of it. If the quran is holy then what reason is there for a muslim to explore, or even allow, the Catholic Church in Iraq. That is very dangerous in islam since muslims are called to:
Sura (2:193) - “And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah.”

If the bishop positions himself and his flocks as dhimmis then muslims will expect them submit to the supremacy of other aspects of islam. I am afraid it will be a slippery slop that will actually endanger what little religious freedoms they have now.

I do not envy the position that the bishop is in. One of the 4 schools of islamic jurisprudence holds that anything that is not islamic (e.g. existence of Catholicism) is a direct attack on islam and therefore can be lawfully fought with violence. The other 3 have very loose definitions on what being attacked is and when you can fight back in “self-defense”.

I am sure he is desperate to foster peace between the Christians and Muslims in Iraq. There has never been peace between these two religions and there never will be until muslims acknowledge the violent, supremacist aspects in their religion and minimize them. This will never happen if everyone keeps telling them that their faith is “holy”. Our job as Catholics is to show them the Truth. Even if this is hard and the Truth is ugly to them.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

He called the book holy. How is that not recommending it to folks (Catholics) who are suppose to model themselves as holy. There are some very unholy things in that book.

Are you really so confused by what he meant? Or is this just a polemical technique of yours?

So you really think the Archbishop was encouraging his flock to convert to Islam and to accept the Koran as scripture?

Perhaps if you have so much trouble with things, you should avoid reading the news. Just do you work and pray the basic prayers and attend mass and forget about this stuff. Leave it to others. It’s just confusing you.

 

[Gail_OCDS]

thedavidwilson,

                   much of the Koran praises the God of Abraham, and therefor is holy, just as the Old Testament, is Holy, despite having some dreadful commandments to shun and kill sinners.

Jim