Those in favour of Israel’s actions seem to find it somewhat inconvenient that there hasn’t been a Hamas-linked suicide bombing since February 2005, and that since the Gaza conflict, only one person has been killed by a rocket from Gaza - that rocket being fired by Ansar al-Sunna, a small jihadist group who oppose Hamas’s rule.Ah, we’re talking about the blockade again, finally.
What gets me, is how all ya’ll who criticize only Israel without equally condemnatory statements for Hamas, enable the hatred of Hamas. The international community also enables the hatred of Hamas, by not continually protesting the rockets fired into Israel.
However, you probably won’t agree with me, on this.
I haven't read all the postings, but here goes.
(1) I admire Rachel Corrie. As you may all know by now, she was a young college students who stood in front of a Palestinian home, about to be demolished, and was run over and killed by an Israel bulldozer. She was a heroine who laid down her life for an innocent family. It was appropriate that a ship filled with humanitarian aid for the beleagured Palestinians was named after her.
(2) Israel is there and needs to be protected generally. However, that is difficult to do when Israel has for years ignored American requests and has continued to build more and more settlements on Palestinian territory - 'facts on the ground'. Now roughly 400,000 Israeli Jews live on West Bank, where there are Jewish-only roads for them to travel to and fro.
(3) Israeli aggressiveness has been at the root of Islamic terrorism. Hatred of the US in the Muslim world first was kindled by America's generous financing (maybe 100 billion by now) of Israel over the years, and our military and diplomatic backing. We showed no compassion for Palestinians who were driven from their land, their homes seized, their orchards destroyed, etc. If the Palestinian refugees had been generously compensated for the injustices against them this whole terrorist mess of today might have been avoided. But the Israel Lobby is powerful and runs Congress and most administrations. I had hoped that Obama might be different, but with Emanuel and Axelrod his top-level advisers I have come to doubt it. I doubt if 9-11 would have happened if we had pursued a fair and balanced policy in Israel/Palestine.
(4) I have visited the Holy Land four times - on pilgrimages. I found the Christian Palestinians as critical of Israel as the Muslims. Sadly, because of the US favoritism of Israel Muslim nationalism has grown and some of it has been directed against Christians who often are misidentified with the USA.
(5) General Patraeus stated not long ago that Israel's 'intransigence' is a key enemy of American interests, that it is a major recruiting motif of al Qaeda and its allies. So, ironically, our 'great ally' in the Middle East actually is aiding our enemy. Israel first nourished Hamas so that it would balance Fatah and see what happened? Is Israel a helpful ally? I don't think so. It's a case of the tail controlling the cashcow.
(6) One possible positive outgrowth of the flotilla of ships bound for Gaza. The bitterness toward Israel worldwide (probably then most despised nation in the world?) has forced it to open up Gaza to more generous humanitarian supplies. Previously, Israel had been trying to cripple Gaza and Hamas by keeping Gazans in poverty and undernourished.
(7) Everyone ought to read the important book "The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy" (exact title?) by two professors, one named Walt and the other I forget. The media permit very little balanced information to get through, but this book gives the whole story in a reasonable, balanced fashion.
(8) Many Jews are opposed to Israel's iron-fist policies. Among them are Rabbi Michael Lerner (Tukkun), J Street, etc. Check them out on the web.
God bless the Israelis, the Palestinians and those of every color and country. May peace and justice come to the Holy Land.If justice and peace ever come to the Holy Land, it will be at the hands of the sensible people there, of whom there are a good number. It’s a poorly kept secret over there that Israelis and Arabs deal with each other all the time, and the ones of moderate instincts know one another well. It’s a very small place, in actuality, and the combined populations of Israel, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza would not be as large as the populations of the great majority of U.S. states. But Iran is up to its elbows in the region, and to ill effect, and there are some very severe tribal animosities and just plain criminal gangs. Most of the killing in the area is Arab-on-Arab.A few points
Code:I haven't read all the postings, but here goes. (1) I admire Rachel Corrie. As you may all know by now, she was a young college students who stood in front of a Palestinian home, about to be demolished, and was run over and killed by an Israel bulldozer. She was a heroine who laid down her life for an innocent family. ** Her death was indeed tragic. But from what I read she did not "lay down her life" for anyone. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time; rather like what happens to victims of fatal industrial accidents. We don't call them heroes or heroines. ** (2) Israel is there and needs to be protected generally. However, that is difficult to do when Israel has for years ignored American requests and has continued to build more and more settlements on Palestinian territory - 'facts on the ground'. Now roughly 400,000 Israeli Jews live on West Bank, where there are Jewish-only roads for them to travel to and fro. ** Arabs live in Israel. What is your argument for the proposition that Jews cannot live in the West Bank? Arabs in Israel do not need to barricade themselves into walled settlements to stay alive. Jews in the West Bank do.** (3) Israeli aggressiveness has been at the root of Islamic terrorism. Hatred of the US in the Muslim world first was kindled by America's generous financing (maybe 100 billion by now) of Israel over the years, and our military and diplomatic backing. ** The Arabs who stayed in Israel in 1948 kept their land. The Arab governments encouraged (and in some cases forced) others to leave, then kept them in camps, promising them the land the Jews already owned. In the West Bank, Israelis acquire property by buying it.** (4) I have visited the Holy Land four times - on pilgrimages. I found the Christian Palestinians as critical of Israel as the Muslims. Sadly, because of the US favoritism of Israel Muslim nationalism has grown and some of it has been directed against Christians who often are misidentified with the USA. ** Muslim hostility toward, and oppression of Christians is as old as Mohammed.** (5) General Patraeus stated not long ago that Israel's 'intransigence' is a key enemy of American interests, that it is a major recruiting motif of al Qaeda and its allies. **Sources? If Petraeus really believes this, perhaps he, and others, should be chided for taking on the frankly chauvinistic notion that somehow every motivation on earth is born in the U.S. Bin Ladin has his own agenda. We're just in the way of it at present. There are many competing interests in the middle east, and they won't quit fighting if we left and Israel disappeared. Israel never was in Iraq in any way. We're leaving. Yet the bombs still go off there, and they will long after the last American soldier is gone. ** (6) One possible positive outgrowth of the flotilla of ships bound for Gaza. The bitterness toward Israel worldwide (probably then most despised nation in the world?) has forced it to open up Gaza to more generous humanitarian supplies. Previously, Israel had been trying to cripple Gaza and Hamas by keeping Gazans in poverty and undernourished. **Food has always been able to be shipped into Gaza. How many people do you think Israel, with its limited citizenry, needs to dedicate to searching every shipment anybody wants to send to Gaza? The U.S. government can't seem to find the resources or the manpower to guard the Mexican border; in either direction. The only thing that keeps Gazans in poverty is their violence toward Israel. Not so very long ago, Gazans could work in Israel. But too many terrorists killed too many Israeli civilians. So Israel put an end to it. That hurt both of them. Keep in mind that Egypt won't let Gazans into Egypt either, despite the fact that Gaza was part of Egypt until 1967.** (7) Everyone ought to read the important book "The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy" (exact title?) by two professors, one named Walt and the other I forget. The media permit very little balanced information to get through, but this book gives the whole story in a reasonable, balanced fashion. ** The U.S. media is hardly pro-Israel, as Helen Thomas, being old, revealed in a moment of candor.** (8) Many Jews are opposed to Israel's iron-fist policies. Among them are Rabbi Michael Lerner (Tukkun), J Street, etc. Check them out on the web. ** And Ron Paul opposes U.S. policies, pretty much carte-blanche. So does Pat Buchanan and lots of leftists. So what? ** God bless the Israelis, the Palestinians and those of every color and country. May peace and justice come to the Holy Land.
(1) Rachel Corrie is a heroine of mind. Period.
(2) Fine, Jews can live on the West Bank if they are willing to live under a Palestinian state. But we know that they won't do this, and that colonizing the West Bank is an open attempt to gradually incorporate it into Israel and drive the Palestinians out.
(3) There were various atrocities by Israelis in 1948. I know a family well who fled because of relatives being killed in a neighboring village by Israeli troops. The mother had the key to her home but could not even return to pick up her possessions. Most people don't know that Israel launched wars in 1956, 1967,1982 and more recently. The only war launched against Israel was in 1973 when Egypt wanted to win back the Sinai. This pushed Israel into giving back the Sinai.
(4) Check the web for Christian organizations in the Middle East - not imports, but the authentic ones. They have been critical of the Israeli policies for years.
(5) The comments of Gen. Patraeus were in the public press. You can probably google them. As for Iraq, AIPAC and other pro-Israel groups helped push us into war there. Now many of them want us to attack Iran. Will this craziness ever cease? I'm hoping that Obama has the good sense not to get us into a third war. Read magazines like Commentary (Jewish neocon) where bombing Iran is strongly urged.
(6) It's absolutely ludicrous to cite Helen Thomas as though she represents the media. She is the only Arab (Christian Lebanese, I've read) that I know of in the media. Much of the media would probably criticize Israel but don't dare. When the area paper here took mild issue with Sharon's deep invasion into Lebanon in 1982, the local rabbi threatened to get his merchant members to withdraw their ads and bankrupt the paper.
(7) All objective reports indicated that Israel was punishing Gaza by blockading all sorts of important materials. Now they seem to be relenting somewhat because of the world outcry. Did you read the Goldstone report (Goldstone is a South African Jew)? It condemned Israel for disproportionate force in invading Gaza. What was it - something like 1400 Gazas killed as against maybe 30 Israelis? Our planes and tanks used in many cases. Outrageous.
(8) You name the only two political figures (of hundreds) who have had the guts to speak up publicly against some of Israel's policies. Ron Paul. Pat Buchanan. I've been amazed and gratified that Ron had been returned to Congress and Pat has remained on TV - and wonder how long. In fact, I've missed him recently from "Morning Joe".
(9) Please read the book I mentioned in fairness to both sides. I once was uncritical of Israel, also, until 1956 when it invaded Egypt. Then I began to read both sides, and found that there are two sides. I am not anti-Israel and want to safe it, but it seems intent upon commiting suicide.
(10) Israel's only hope in the long haul is to achieve peace with justice in the Holy Land. Otherise, eventually the Muslim world will be ready to take it on. Time is on the side of Muslim fanatics, who are strengthened by Israel's policies. Our best hope is to convince the vast majority of Muslims - moderates - that we are fair-minded and that we are not waging war against Islam. Netanyahu and his crowd do all they can to keep us at odds with the Muslims. I admire those Jews here and in Israel who believe in negotiation, compromise, and reconciliation. They often are slandered as 'self-hating Jews'. One of my rabbi friends suffers from such libel. He is strongly pro-Israel, an ardent Zionist, but he knows that Israel's welfare is being undermined by its arrogant iron-fist stance.
Keep smiling. And kindly inform yourself by reading both sides. 98% of what we hear is slanted toward Israel and it's sad for our future and for peace in our war-weary world. Oh, and by the way, the Popes have been critical of Israeli policies, also. Benedict XVI, for example, criticized the manner in which Israel boarded the Turkish ship - dropping aboard in the middle of the night with guns, grenades, etc. How to lose friends and not influence people! I'm sure you think Israel was justified. How do we possibly get through to those who haven't read/heard both sides? Apparently they've been successflly brainwashed. Once again I challenge you to read *The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy*. It should be in your library, though when it came out, important as it is, it received scant coverage. And probably many libraries didn't order it as a result.
God bless Israelis, Palestinians, and all God's children.Now, here’s an example of what I mean. The wall the Israeli’s built, the world’s protests notwithstanding, has drastically reduced suicide bombers, not any Hamas goodwill.Those in favour of Israel’s actions seem to find it somewhat inconvenient that there hasn’t been a Hamas-linked suicide bombing since February 2005, and that since the Gaza conflict, only one person has been killed by a rocket from Gaza - that rocket being fired by Ansar al-Sunna, a small jihadist group who oppose Hamas’s rule.
It is not inconvenient to support successful strategies against Hamas methods of terror…Those in favour of Israel’s actions seem to find it somewhat inconvenient that there hasn’t been a Hamas-linked suicide bombing since February 2005, and that since the Gaza conflict, only one person has been killed by a rocket from Gaza - that rocket being fired by Ansar al-Sunna, a small jihadist group who oppose Hamas’s rule.
It’s just not possible to engage in a contructive conversation or debate in which any form of legitmate criticism is construed as ‘‘hate’’.O Duirnin’s post is a good example of enabling NGOs and governments to hate Israel.
Pragmatically, the USofA needed the allies.Technically, you’re right.
Pragmatically, without the USofA military, the other 29 nations in the Coalition could not have saved Kuwait. Pragmatically, I’m right.
I don’t think you’re right.I bet I did a better job of admitting where you’re right, than you’ll do of admitting where I’m right.
Yes, and the very best thing westerners could do to promote peace over there is to NOT swallow the anti-Israeli red herrings the bad guys serve up.A few quick replies
Code:(1) Rachel Corrie is a heroine of mind. Period. **Very well, but it's the cause, not the person you are admiring. She, herself, was simply a victim of an accident, like a pedestrian at a busy crosswalk.** (2) Fine, Jews can live on the West Bank if they are willing to live under a Palestinian state. ** So, because Jordan once owned the West Bank, you feel it should be Judenrein which, as a practical matter, it will be as a Palestinian state. ** (3) There were various atrocities by Israelis in 1948. ** I also know a family (tribe, really), some of whose property in Israel became Israeli property. It also owns property in the West Bank. Sure, there is some resentment of Israel in it, but some people over there actually realize that it's up to people to make it on their own and let ancient grievances go.Jews have been dispossessed all over the M.E.** (4) Check the web for Christian organizations in the Middle East - not imports, but the authentic ones. They have been critical of the Israeli policies for years. **And if you lived under Muslim control, as they do, so would you. ** (5) The comments of Gen. Patraeus were in the public press. You can probably google them. As for Iraq, AIPAC and other pro-Israel groups helped push us into war there. Now many of them want us to attack Iran. Will this craziness ever cease? I'm hoping that Obama has the good sense not to get us into a third war. **Obama won't, and he has made that very clear.** (6) It's absolutely ludicrous to cite Helen Thomas as though she represents the media. Much of the media would probably criticize Israel but don't dare. **'Nuff said. We agree on your second sentence.** (7) All objective reports indicated that Israel was punishing Gaza by blockading all sorts of important materials. Now they seem to be relenting somewhat because of the world outcry. Did you read the Goldstone report (Goldstone is a South African Jew)? It condemned Israel for disproportionate force in invading Gaza. What was it - something like 1400 Gazas killed as against maybe 30 Israelis? Our planes and tanks used in many cases. Outrageous. **When is "disproportionate force" not desired in war?** (8) You name the only two political figures (of hundreds) who have had the guts to speak up publicly against some of Israel's policies. **We can stipulate that there are more.** (9) Please read the book I mentioned in fairness to both sides. I once was uncritical of Israel, also, until 1956 when it invaded Egypt. Then I began to read both sides, and found that there are two sides. I am not anti-Israel and want to safe it, but it seems intent upon commiting suicide. ** No offense, but I prefer my own sources of information.** (10) Israel's only hope in the long haul is to achieve peace with justice in the Holy Land. Otherise, eventually the Muslim world will be ready to take it on. Time is on the side of Muslim fanatics, who are strengthened by Israel's policies. Our best hope is to convince the vast majority of Muslims - moderates - that we are fair-minded and that we are not waging war against Islam. Netanyahu and his crowd do all they can to keep us at odds with the Muslims. I admire those Jews here and in Israel who believe in negotiation, compromise, and reconciliation. They often are slandered as 'self-hating Jews'. One of my rabbi friends suffers from such libel. He is strongly pro-Israel, an ardent Zionist, but he knows that Israel's welfare is being undermined by its arrogant iron-fist stance. **This is all wrong. I prefer to talk to responsible Arabs I know; people who actually deal with the situation there; know who's who and what's what. For one thing, most of the conflict in the area really has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with money, wealth, and the fact that the place is like "Gangs of New York"; fundamentally lawless. There actually are people over there, both Arabs and Israelis who are trying to create a lawful, mutually beneficial arrangement. But a lot of things stand in the way; among them Iran and its gunmen, but also including Mafia-like criminal organizations that clothe themselves in any guise that comes handy. Sometimes, those are the "official, political" organizations, or branches thereof. Do you know how close peace came during Clinton's administration? It was almost a certainty until Arafat stole the money donated by the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and started the Intifada to cover it up. Lots of crooks involved in all of that over there.** Oh, and by the way, the Popes have been critical of Israeli policies, also. Benedict XVI, for example, criticized the manner in which Israel boarded the Turkish ship - dropping aboard in the middle of the night with guns, grenades, etc. How to lose friends and not influence people! I'm sure you think Israel was justified. How do we possibly get through to those who haven't read/heard both sides? Apparently they've been successflly brainwashed. Once again I challenge you to read *The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy*. It should be in your library, though when it came out, important as it is, it received scant coverage. And probably many libraries didn't order it as a result. **When did the Popes ever endorse any kind of violent confrontation? They didn't even endorse the Allied side in WWII. That's not their mission. Again, I don't care to read anybody's partisan account. I prefer the information I receive from the Palestinians I know. ** God bless Israelis, Palestinians, and all God's children.
There are really a couple of things here. The first is some border arrangement that would provide a reasonable degree of defensibility to Israel. Hard to do in that tiny place, but a 12 mile width for Israel (pre-1967) in some places is hardly defensible.Interesting exchanges. Two points are particularly interesting. The one is the idea of Jews settling in lands that ultimately may not be under Israeli control. These are sort of like the canaries in the mine. As long as they are not secure to live without constant guard, then peace is not a real proposition, and a two-state solution is not presently a realistic solution, but only a proposition for the future.
I have recommended just one book, *The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy*, by two professors, one at Harvard and other at Chicago U. If you choose to avoid reading both sides I am wasting my time, so will sign off. We have been so subjected to pro-Israel propaganda for so long that millions of minds have been closed to the reality. What is that reality? There are two sides, both partly right and both partly wrong. The Jews needed a refuge after WWII. The Palestinians have been treated like dirt. If the USA had been genuinely sympathetic to both, this could and should have been worked out years and years ago. We likely could have escaped 9-11, as Muslim bitterness toward the USA was first triggered by our total support of Israel and the demonization of the Palestinian people.
On four occasions I have been to the Holy Land as a pilgrim. On each occasion I was subjected to guides who talked of Palestinians as bigoted Americans once spoke of Blacks. Some people didn't mind. They were convinced that God was deep into the real estate business and all of greater Israel belonged to the Jews. There are many reasons given in the Bible why this is not true, but my main reasons are two: (1) God believes in justice, mercy and peace, and Israel has not advanced these; and (2) Israel keeps shooting itself in the foot by alienating more and more of the world.
A daughter of mine spent time in Europe, especially England. She reported back that the media there were far-more balanced, She also reported that the people over there were alienated from Israel because for decades it has planted more and more settlements on land that needs to be a refuge for the Palestinians. But who cares about the Palestinians in this country? I think more and more people do, and Israel needs to adjust accordingly before the American people no longer give them billions a year of our tax money and have our national interests undermined by our continual kowtowing to the Israeli state.
To be wisely pro-Israel we must be also pro-Palestinian.
Meanwhile, if you refuse to read material that presents the case of the Palestinians I have little respect for your opinion. You haven't been fair-minded in your asessment.This country’s political Administration does that all the time. Do you complain to them?It’s just not possible to engage in a contructive conversation or debate in which any form of legitmate criticism is construed as ‘‘hate’’.
In the spirit of retuning to the OP, I won’t rebutt your arrogance.Pragmatically, the USofA needed the allies.
They needed to work from their bases for one thing.
For another, there was no appetite for war at the time, and in the States it was very much viewed as an Arab affair. The USofA also needed the allies because Bush was terrified of the US appearing to be a lone cowboy going guns ablaze into Arab territory on it’s own. It also didnt want to have to bear the costs of a war and the losses that entails, given there was little public stomach for such a war in August of '90.
Pragmatically, the USofA needed the Coalition.
It could have gone solo under Article 51, after all!
But it didn’t.
When Kuwait was liberated, there were those in the US military that wanted to finish Saddam off - even though this would have been in contravention to our mandate.
But we had fulfilled our UN Mandate and satisfied the relevant resolutions.
We, the Coalition, were having none of it.
And the USofA wouldn’t move without us.
Anyhow, this has nothing to do with the flotilla of the OP and the thread author has already said he/she would like this thread to stay on topic.
If you want to discuss America’s role in the gulf further Im happy to do so in another thread.
I don’t think you’re right.
When I do, I’ll have no problem saying so.
Tell you what, Roy,Until one is willing to read both sides, it’s futile to engage in dialogue. I once was very pro-Israel as I go back many years and have followed this part of the world closely. However, in 1956 my deep faith in Israel was shaken, and I admired Ike when he told Israel to ‘get out’ once it had invaded Egypt. Wish we had a courageous president like Eisenhower now. They all have been afraid of AIPAC and its vengeance (and campaign money).
Code:I have recommended just one book, *The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy*, by two professors, one at Harvard and other at Chicago U. If you choose to avoid reading both sides I am wasting my time, so will sign off. We have been so subjected to pro-Israel propaganda for so long that millions of minds have been closed to the reality. What is that reality? There are two sides, both partly right and both partly wrong. The Jews needed a refuge after WWII. The Palestinians have been treated like dirt. If the USA had been genuinely sympathetic to both, this could and should have been worked out years and years ago. We likely could have escaped 9-11, as Muslim bitterness toward the USA was first triggered by our total support of Israel and the demonization of the Palestinian people. On four occasions I have been to the Holy Land as a pilgrim. On each occasion I was subjected to guides who talked of Palestinians as bigoted Americans once spoke of Blacks. Some people didn't mind. They were convinced that God was deep into the real estate business and all of greater Israel belonged to the Jews. There are many reasons given in the Bible why this is not true, but my main reasons are two: (1) God believes in justice, mercy and peace, and Israel has not advanced these; and (2) Israel keeps shooting itself in the foot by alienating more and more of the world. A daughter of mine spent time in Europe, especially England. She reported back that the media there were far-more balanced, She also reported that the people over there were alienated from Israel because for decades it has planted more and more settlements on land that needs to be a refuge for the Palestinians. But who cares about the Palestinians in this country? I think more and more people do, and Israel needs to adjust accordingly before the American people no longer give them billions a year of our tax money and have our national interests undermined by our continual kowtowing to the Israeli state. To be wisely pro-Israel we must be also pro-Palestinian. Meanwhile, if you refuse to read material that presents the case of the Palestinians I have little respect for your opinion. You haven't been fair-minded in your asessment.
I would also add that the whole “Jews…I mean AIPAC runs the WORLD” harkens back to a screed supposedly overheard in a Basel cemetery, or a tendency to drink the prison planet koolaid, at least.Tell you what, Roy,
I hear the Palestinians’ side of it over and over. I can fathom Israel’s side of it from Israeli news sources and all the world’s hate Jews propaganda.
Nobody is out to push the Palestinians into the sea. Palestinians have not for millenia been subject to Pogroms and other attempts at genocide. As long as you let “both sides” presentation by two professors who never got shot at by either side (read disconnect from reality) obscure the dire straits of Israel and the unthreatened state of the Palestinians, then have little respect for your opinions which choose to ignore that imbalance of justice.
Have you read books by Palestinians? Have you read books by Israelis? Those would be the authoritative texts, I would think, not some safe think tank’s professors.
Kindly refrain from making personal insults and discuss the topic, not the poster.In the spirit of retuning to the OP, I won’t rebutt your arrogance.
Fatah had just been voted out in what was universally recognised as a free and fair election, yet they refused to accept the result and leave office. What’s ‘lawful’ about that?The Palestinians brought grief upon themselves when they let Hamas take the government in Gaza, and ignored the lawful Fatah government.
They were also universaly known as incompetent and corrupt from head to toe.Fatah had just been voted out in what was universally recognised as a free and fair election, yet they refused to accept the result and leave office. What’s ‘lawful’ about that?