Ireland asks Israel to allow ship to Gaza

[tjm190]

Israel, or any other country for that matter, cannot operate a blocade that inflicts collective punishment on a civilian population.

That is why it is illegal.

All blockades inflict collective punishment.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

All blockades inflict collective punishment.

Theres a very real danger that that may be the case.

And that’s precisely why International Humanitarian Law has evolved to ensure that suffering is minimised.

Hence San Remo is very specific about the conduct of blockades, and aid ships, and why the ICRC said the following:

GENEVA: The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said on Monday Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip violates the Geneva Conventions and called for its lifting.

The neutral humanitarian agency also urged Hamas holding Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, captured nearly four years ago in a cross-border raid, to allow his family to have regular contact with him, in line with international law.

Israel’s raid on a Gaza aid flotilla two weeks ago, in which nine pro-Palestinian Turkish activists were killed, highlighted acute hardships faced by 1.5 million Gazans due to the closure since 2007, it said. They endure unemployment, poverty and warfare, and health care whose quality is at an “all time low”.

“The whole of Gaza’s civilian population is being punished for acts for which they bear no responsibility. The closure therefore constitutes a collective punishment imposed in clear violation of Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian law,” the ICRC said in a five-page statement.

It was the first time the ICRC has said explicitly that Israel’s blockade constitutes a violation of international humanitarian law embodied in the Geneva Conventions, an ICRC spokeswoman said. The Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, ratified by Israel, bans collective punishment of a civilian population.

While a blockade is a legitimate tool to be employed by beligerants in certain circumstances, the blockade will be illegal if it constitutes collective punishment - and numerous humanitarian agencys believe it does.

 

[Roy5]

The Catholic News Service put out a release posted June 1 on the web. Has this been mentioned already? It was written by Sarah Delaney and entitled: “Pope deplores Israeli assault, calls for improved conditions in Gaza.” The article also quotes Archbishop Tomasi, Fr. Jorge Henandez, etc., who also sharply condemned the Israel policy re Gaza and the flotilla.
I'm sure that you can get that story if you wish. I believe it can be reached at [email]cns@catholicnews.com[/email]. The story shows the Pope's strong opposition to the attack on the flotilla, describes miserable conditions in Gaza imposed by the embargo, and the statement by Fr. Hernandez of Gaza that the situation there included "the lack of nearly any product which made prices soar to the sky. Medicine and other necessary goods are extremely costly. The situation had been getting worse day by day."

 

[O_Duirnin]

Are you saying that Arab Christians in the West Bank are somehow treated more harshly by Isralis than are Arab Muslims, Druze or anybody else in the West Bank?

Christians are not treated too well by Muslims there either, and are leaving due to increasing Islamization.
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/christianme1.html

No, but I find that describing the state of the Palestinian Christians often disarms those whose beliefs are motivated by little more than a vague sense of Islamophobia. I’m emphasising that Israeli brutality in Palestine affects the Christian population too. I notice that you made no attempt to defend the IDF’s treatment of Palestinian Christians.

The article you quote comes from a website run by the ‘American-Israeli Co-operative Enterprise’ - I’m sure you wouldn’t argue that its a neutral source. The author provides no evidence for her claims that Christian emigration is a direct results of ‘Islamisation’. Everything I heard from Palestinian Christians directly contradicts the article. I mentioned the Anglican priest who attributed full blame for Christian emigration on ‘the occupation, the occupation!’ If you were unable to go to mass because you were trapped behind an Israeli checkpoint, if your parish priest was strip-searched while trying to visit you, if your Church was closed because of an IDF jeep parked on the front steps, would you want to live in such an environment? Fr Ibrahim suggested that the main reason for a slightly higher percentage of Christian emigration was the fact that Christians, who control a much larger section of the Palestinian economy than their community’s size would suggest, tend to have more contacts abroad.

I also mentioned there about how the only ‘attacks’ on Christians in the West Bank reported in the Western media in recent years were either a complete fraud or the actions of a few silly young hoodlums of whose ilk we see vandalising places of worship in our own countries.

 

[tjm190]

Theres a very real danger that that may be the case.

And that’s precisely why International Humanitarian Law has evolved to ensure that suffering is minimised.

Hence San Remo is very specific about the conduct of blockades, and aid ships, and why the ICRC said the following:

While a blockade is a legitimate tool to be employed by beligerants in certain circumstances, the blockade will be illegal if it constitutes collective punishment - and numerous humanitarian agencys believe it does.

It is impossible to impose a blockade without forcing hardships on all who make use of that trade route- this particular case is born of the desire to keep weapons out of the hands of those who would do Israel harm. If you believe it is feasible to do so without a blockade, I implore you to go public with your proposal.

 

[donsnow]

That’s a bit clearer - and quite different from what you said earlier:

So you agree that it is legitimate to criticize Israeli actions and to do so is not anti semitic. Which is also in line with this forums rules.

On the earlier post, I should have written “self defense” for “actions”.

 

[donsnow]

Israel, or any other country for that matter, cannot operate a blocade that inflicts collective punishment on a civilian population.

That is why it is illegal.

English Law forms the basis of the legal system of all previous colonies of the Crown. Including America. English law was never put aside by the States. It’s at the heart of the entire legal system.

And I hope the non violent actions of peace activists all over the world, and the worlds governments, will make Israel life it’s unjust and illegal impositions on the innocent civilians of Gaza.

I agree, Israels unjust and illegal activity in Gaza is a big part of the problem.

I agree.

But all defensive actions must be proportionate, and comply with international humanitarian law and rules of engagement.

No.

Israel does not have the right to forge foreign citizens passports, and murder a man in his hotel room, in a foreign country.

That is a clear breach of internation law, and a violation of the soverignty of other states.

Israel must be held accountable for that.

It cannot do as it pleases.

Furthermore, Israels actions do not comply with what the Catechism of the Catholic Church defines as Just:

From the Catechism of the Catholic church:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/just_war.htm

Your posts ignoring the worse crimes committed by Hamas, but harping on Israel’s faults and ignoring her good I find irritating, not instructive.

I favor Israel over the Palestinians. You aren’t going to change that, because the Palestinian Authority faces no risk of demolishment from Israel, but Israel is in grave risk of Hamas’ desire to eradicate her.

It’s not Israel’s fault that every Muslim nation except Jordan refuses to receive Palestinian refugees…Islam, not Israel, causes the ghetto in the Gaza strip.

Your side stepping the above issues, or white washing them, smacks of a disgusting hypocrisy.

 

[donsnow]

The Catholic News Service put out a release posted June 1 on the web. Has this been mentioned already? It was written by Sarah Delaney and entitled: “Pope deplores Israeli assault, calls for improved conditions in Gaza.” The article also quotes Archbishop Tomasi, Fr. Jorge Henandez, etc., who also sharply condemned the Israel policy re Gaza and the flotilla.

I'm sure that you can get that story if you wish. I believe it can be reached at [email]cns@catholicnews.com[/email]. The story shows the Pope's strong opposition to the attack on the flotilla, describes miserable conditions in Gaza imposed by the embargo, and the statement by Fr. Hernandez of Gaza that the situation there included "the lack of nearly any product which made prices soar to the sky. Medicine and other necessary goods are extremely costly. The situation had been getting worse day by day."

Since the link you provide produces an email window to write to cns@catholicnews.com rather than any documentation of your assertions, I am free to question the validity of your allegations about the Pope’s and others’ comments on the flotilla and conditions in Gaza.

 

[gnjsdad]

Since the link you provide produces an email window to write to cns@catholicnews.com rather than any documentation of your assertions, I am free to question the validity of your allegations about the Pope’s and others’ comments on the flotilla and conditions in Gaza.

Pope deplores Israeli assault, calls for improved conditions in Gaza[

](http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1002253.htm)By Sarah Delaney
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Pope Benedict XVI deplored an assault by Israeli commandos on a flotilla of ships taking aid to the Gaza Strip, calling the series of events “tragic” and “very painful,” as well as a cause concern for all those who long for peace in the region.

*He also called on world leaders and local politicians to do all they could to improve the living conditions in Gaza, which Israel has blockaded since 2007, when the Islamic militant group Hamas took control of the territory. *

“Once again I repeat with a heavy heart that violence does not resolve controversies, but rather it augments the dramatic consequences and spawns more violence,” he said at the end of his general audience talk in St. Peter’s Square June 2.

 

[bekalc]

I favor Israel over the Palestinians. You aren’t going to change that, because the Palestinian Authority faces no risk of demolishment from Israel, but Israel is in grave risk of Hamas’ desire to eradicate her.

Really? Well I think I could point out that I think the Israelis absolutely are trying to wipe out the Palestinians as a society out of existence. How many times do we hear there is no such thing as Palestinians. Towns with Arabic names have been wiped out of Israel proper. Many Palestnians will tell you that a lot of libraries have been wiped out. Do you think that Arab Israelis learn much about their culture prior to 1948, nope.

Then there are other things like building over the main Islamic cemetary in East Jerusalem. In general the fact that Palestinian homes have been demolished in favor of Jewish ones.

 

[Darryl1958]

I offer that Israel does have a right to blockade the Gaza strip. As far as the legalities go, legalities of Crown over Colonies sparked the American Revolution, and English law was put aside when we won. Legalities added fuel to the fire that roared into the American Civil War, and unjust slavery laws were cast aside when we won it. Legalities inspired the 1960’s Civil Rights Movement in America, and the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr led blacks and whites alike in non-violent civil disobedience to have those unjust laws struck down.

So, don’t tell me how lawful this or that is, when unjust laws are the problem. And, International and Sharia law are full of unjust laws when compared to our 1792 Constitution, and compared to a godly government.

Israel has the right to defend itself and it’s people. Anywhere.

Laws created and interpreted by people who are disposed to the dismantlement of Israel as a Jewish state are merely political tools. Israelis governments first obligation is to defend her own interests and her own soliders, just like any other nation is.

Genocide as a method of defense is of course unjustified. So is much of sharia law, actually. a fair and impartial criticism of odious and ‘illegal’ impositions against the Palestinian people therefore ought to start with, or at least include, the illegal impositions that a police state like Hamas is imposing on the Palestinians. elections in which any opposition is brutally put down, as is the case with both Fatah and Hamas, are in effect not free and therefore illegal too.

Palestinian rule of Palestinans is what is illegal and most oppressive here.

 

[donsnow]

Pope deplores Israeli assault, calls for improved conditions in Gaza[

](http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1002253.htm)By Sarah Delaney
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Pope Benedict XVI deplored an assault by Israeli commandos on a flotilla of ships taking aid to the Gaza Strip, calling the series of events “tragic” and “very painful,” as well as a cause concern for all those who long for peace in the region.

*He also called on world leaders and local politicians to do all they could to improve the living conditions in Gaza, which Israel has blockaded since 2007, when the Islamic militant group Hamas took control of the territory. *

“Once again I repeat with a heavy heart that violence does not resolve controversies, but rather it augments the dramatic consequences and spawns more violence,” he said at the end of his general audience talk in St. Peter’s Square June 2.

The thing is, he does not say it’s illegal.

My point is that unjust laws have sparked Revolutions, Civil War and the civil disobedience of the 20th century. Implied, of course, is that just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s right.

 

[donsnow]

Really? Well I think I could point out that I think the Israelis absolutely are trying to wipe out the Palestinians as a society out of existence. How many times do we hear there is no such thing as Palestinians. Towns with Arabic names have been wiped out of Israel proper. Many Palestnians will tell you that a lot of libraries have been wiped out. Do you think that Arab Israelis learn much about their culture prior to 1948, nope.

Then there are other things like building over the main Islamic cemetary in East Jerusalem. In general the fact that Palestinian homes have been demolished in favor of Jewish ones.

I sense extreme exaggeration in your claim that Israel is trying to wipe out the Palestinians. I don’t believe it.
What you iterate after that happens all over the world, especially in USofA and our Native Americans. Public schools don’t have Amerind history. Why single out Israel?

Like I said, I favor Israel. Maybe if the Palestinians weren’t so prone to terrorist acts, they’d get a better deal from Israel.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Since the link you provide produces an email window to write to cns@catholicnews.com rather than any documentation of your assertions, I am free to question the validity of your allegations about the Pope’s and others’ comments on the flotilla and conditions in Gaza.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1002253.htm

In a statement, the Jerusalem Inter-Church Center condemned “in the strongest language possible the irresponsible actions perpetrated by the Israeli forces against civilian participants of the Freedom Flotilla.” It called on people to take action that would see Israel adhere to international norms by ending the siege on Gaza and as well as its military occupation of the Palestinian territories.

Father Hernandez told the Italian bishops’ news agency, SIR, that it was a tragedy that the attacks occurred during the May 29-June 4 World Week for Peace in Palestine and Israel, promoted by the World Council of Churches.

“I do not know how to express our disappointment in such a thing, which should have and could have been avoided,” the priest said. “Israel said that it would block every attempt to reach Gaza. Israel has the means to prevent and control these situations. It was not necessary to arrive at the point of killing, and now the risk is that the violence will lead to more violence. There already are people talking about vengeance and reprisals.”

Speaking at an emergency U.N. debate June 1 in Geneva concerning the Israeli raid, Archbishop Tomasi said it was “clear that the humanitarian needs of the people of Gaza” were not being met.

“All parties involved and the international community have a responsibility to cooperate so that the fundamental human rights of those persons are implemented,” he said.

Yes - the Pope did indeed deplore the IDF assault.

It’s a great shame that more catholics don’t enjoin the Pope’s condemnation.

It’s also interesting for me to note the Catholic priest in Gaza has said something that I said earlier ie Israel has means and methods to ensure killing could have been avoided.

It chose means and methods that would almost certainly ensure the IDF could resort to lethal violence.

And it did.

I pray more people will listen to the Pope and his Bishops.

 

[Darryl1958]

“Once again I repeat with a heavy heart that violence does not resolve controversies, but rather it augments the dramatic consequences and spawns more violence,” he said at the end of his general audience talk in St. Peter’s Square June 2.

That wasn’t the case for WWII. Winning the war with violence was about the only way to ‘spawn’ peace actually. It wasn’t all it took of course. It was part of the solution though for sure.

Lose the war in Vietnam, and the next thing that you know you have a full-blown genocide in Cambodia. Signing a peace accord along the dotted line was insufficient to bring peace.

Very sweet of the pope to say so, but it doesn’t much jive with the segment of modern history that has spanned his own lifetime.

 

[Darryl1958]

I pray more people will listen to the Pope and his Bishops.

what about when it comes to abortion and condoms?
It is a bad thing when people listen to them then, right? It made Ireland into a nightmarish land, until women’s libbers came along and saved the day, right?

 

[Darryl1958]

Fair enough Jharek. The other poster had left me with the impression (in another thread) that that had 'all admittedly changed now" in the very Catholic state of Ireland, and was “grotesquely unfair”, fully comparable to living under dhimmitude in a Muslim country even.

It seemed like a fair response then to query as to whether or not the argument is to only be selectively listening to our popes and bishops—to their views on politics, but not their teachings on sin.

I seriously doubt those living there are ‘‘getting off’’ on being subjugated!!

Could the same then be said of Ireland in the 70’s - a very catholic state, where abortion was illegal, condoms were illegal, where you had to go abroad to buy them, and risked being fined and imprisoned if caught bringing them into the country.

Admittedly that’s all changed now, but only after major upheaval and the action of numerous womens interests groups.

But if the catholic church and catholic politicians had had their way, it would still be illegal to buy or import condoms there.

And there wouldn’t be one single catholic person here in uproar that such policies are grotesquely unfair on those living in Ireland that are not catholic.

 

[donsnow]

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1002253.htm

Yes - the Pope did indeed deplore the IDF assault.

It’s a great shame that more catholics don’t enjoin the Pope’s condemnation.

It’s also interesting for me to note the Catholic priest in Gaza has said something that I said earlier ie Israel has means and methods to ensure killing could have been avoided.

It chose means and methods that would almost certainly ensure the IDF could resort to lethal violence.

And it did.

I pray more people will listen to the Pope and his Bishops.

In my mind, before the Church can make a just statement, it should also condemn in the strongest terms those who provoke the IDF by scorning the blockade.

 

[Roy5]

Apparently the flotilla was effective. The news media are full of reports that Israel is loosening its blockade, allowing just about everything but arms in. That does several things: (1) it affirms the effectiveness of the flotilla, as suggested already; (2) it’s an Israeli admission that the embargo kept out many important imports badly needed to have a decent life in Gaza; (3) it indicates that Israel lies regularly when it reports on many different things. It’s sad that 11 people (was it?) aboard the flotilla had to sacrifice their lives for all this to happen, that Israel incurred increased bitterness worldwide because of its night-time attack, and that its friend Turkey may become its enemy as a result.

Until Israel stops treating the Palestinians like dirt, stops building more and more settlements on the West Bank, using in effect our dollars to so, and begins to abide my international law and demonstrate some interest in justice for the Palestinians, Israel will be insecure. Those of us who criticize Israel's iron-fist, arrogant policies are its best friends, as much as we come under savage attack. The Israelis should remember their own modern history and how oppression of the Jews led to the destruction of Germany.

 Besides all this, Israel gave strong support to Hamas at first, to counter Arafat and Fatah. The lesson: watch out whom you're supporting!

 

[Guyonthestreet]

In my mind, before the Church can make a just statement, it should also condemn in the strongest terms those who provoke the IDF by scorning the blockade.

Perhaps the Church is a bit more clued in and through it’s contacts knows what some of us already knew, and some of us chose to ignore:

McClatchy obtained the government’s written statement from Gisha, the Legal Center for Freedom of Movement, which sued the government for information about the blockade. The Israeli high court upheld the suit, and the government delivered its statement earlier this year.

Sari Bashi, the director of Gisha, said the documents prove that Israel isn’t imposing its blockade for its stated reasons, but rather as collective punishment for the Palestinian population of Gaza.

Read more: mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html#ixzz0rWSZnUiy