Irish abuse report is 'shocking'

[Nandarani]

Although sexual abuse is obviously, in any form at all, completely abhorrent and inexcusable I would like to make a little point here.

These claims, as I have heard them today on UK news, date back to the 1920’s. I don’t know what it was like in the US but here up until, I believe, the 1970’s corporal punishment was the done thing in schools. Children were caned, hit with a leather strap, had blackboard chalk and sometimes even the erasers (wooden ones!) thrown at them. Parents routinely disciplined their own with slippers and belts and it was a completely acceptable way of dealing with a errant child.

The claims I have heard today are unacceptable by today’s standards, and quite rightly so, but to make out that the Catholic Church was the ONLY authority to be doing this is disingenuous. (And I realise ‘2 wrongs don’t make a right’ but the point is that that was the way that society at that time expected you to discipline your child.)

Our news reports here have lead almost all day with this - although important it is not the only important thing going on. And I’d bet that many Church of England orphanages had the same problem, only its not as ‘sexy’ (for want of a better word) to report those - say the words ‘Catholic Church’ and ‘abuse’ together and watch your ratings soar.

Thank you. … from someone approaching the Church who this drives nuts considering my experience in Hinduism, which isn’t subject to these kinds of stories and pressure, ever. For reasons that could be the subject of an entire book in my view. Also appreciate the person who spoke of the Church shooting itself in the foot given the amount and type of pressure on it these days. It was good to see Douthat’s review of Dan Brown’s latest book, prominently placed on www.nytimes.com yesterday 5/19/09. He gave Catholicism some defense. I responded with comment number 6.

 

[ckempston]

I am not denying that such things happened. If you read my post there, I said that they did occur. And I condemn the Bishops who either did this or allowed it to happen.

It should be recognized, though, that those Bishops acted against the Church’s teachings and without the consent of the Vatican. Had the Vatican known of what was happening, it would have been dealt with immediately. Indeed, the Vatican took the matter very seriously once it came to light.

Baloney. For one, you can’t separate Bishops from the Vatican. The Vatican has proven where its loyalty lies at every turn during these events: with protecting the priests.

 

[ckempston]

No you are deliberately taking me out of context - I was merely trying to point out that you cannot use today’s ethics and moral arguments to put down what people did years ago. When I was young if I had done anything wrong at school and got the strap from the Headmaster I would have gone home and been given a hiding as well from my parents - because I had ‘obviously deserved it’. This is certainly not the way I raise my children and I am glad they no longer have this punishment in state schools. But that was the way it was done then and it is unfair to look back and judge harshly, looking through today’s eyes.

We’re not just talking about strappings. We’re talking about abuse, humiliation, and sexual impropriety from people who are suppose to represent God. I was merely pointing out the irony that the church is supposed to be “set apart” from the world, but history has proven that it does what the world does at every turn.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

“Many of those who are alleged to have carried out the abuse are now dead”

Funny how this is always the case.

 

[Detales]

Speaking as one who narrowly escaped being the object of such sexual perversion, and knowing a few who were not so fortunate, even to the point of forgeting until their daughter faced the same situation with the same priest, I feel I have something to say about the matter. And I did, if you have read my post #12 above, as well as comments in other threads. I feel, however, that I have there more correctly taken the consideration of this problem beyond its relative confinement as a strictly Catholic issue to a much larger one. Catholics, despite the efforts of some to make such a portrayal, do not exist in a vacuum.

It is very disengenuous to say that “all to (sic) often these “official” reports are nothing but fluff to throw around.” While it is the propensity of the media these days to emotionally embellish, the substance of these stories exists, however old or fresh the inititial incidents may be. And that even if they are old does not absolve them from consideration, as they bear on conditions and attitudes existing today.

It is also a good point to remember that standards are now different, and that laxity of standards is as well dangerous. But what about the eternal standards claimed to be the foundation of the lives of the perpatrators of actual sexual and other abuse?

And yes, of course there are those who would take advantage of the ability to accuse and attempt to work that to their advantage. But please, that is clearly an ancilliary issue, and bears no degree or kind of mitigation for actual acts committed that are in examination here. These attempts to extort should in no way be brought in to appear to alleviate existing guilt of individuals or of the church as an institution. Fraud and extortion are not a solely Catholic province either.

At www.freethinker.co.uk/2009/05/20/a-story-of-revelation-and-rebirth-but-not-as-christians-would-like-it there is a review of of a book written by someone who gained a strong faith at a time of crisis and turned his talent as a journalist to reportage in the religious arena. His comments are eye openers on several fronts, and are worth perusal.

I further submit for everyone’s consideration that, while in the minds of many the world always and only exists in a Catholic context, the church, in fact, is a recent phenomenon and has considerations applicable to it that are not “solely” in the context of its own theological framework. In fact, the current consideratons are just the most recent of a long line of such questionable matters common to religions in general, as well as other arenas. Once again, goodness and religious affiliation and practice, or lack thereof, have little to do with one another.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Personally, I will take this report with a pinch-of-salt… all to often these “official” reports are nothing but fluff to throw around.

Does every child that has had a cane taken to their backside the sufferer of abuse? Hell… most people will tell you giving an inerrant child a good talking-to is abuse. This report claims over 20,000 – some reports of which are coming from second-hand sources – persons suffered physical and sexual abuse. How many cases were sexual, and how many were physical, and what was the nature of this pshyical abuse?

By todays standards, most of what was going on in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s was abusive. Personally, I believe it is todays standards that are a little off base. And this is coming from a seventeen-year old.

I want to know more about what is actually in this report and how much we can take as fact.

i heard that some of these schools were open as late as 1998. this is very sad and will be another scandal for the Church to deal with. after awhile, you have to ask yourself how all of these abuses whether in ireland or priest sex abuse cases in america and around the world were able to go on and the Church seemed complicit in trying to cover them up.

 

[HolySpirit08]

All of these abusers and their superiors who simply moved them around only to abuse again and again and again should be turned over to the law for their just punishment and excommunicated. I certainly don’t want any of them in my parish nor do I want to have to support them in any way, shape or form now or during their retirement. I am so disgusted even if “only” one out of ten complaints are truthful. That is still too many. Repulsive.

 

[Norminha]

Mrs Miggins

I believe, the 1970’s corporal punishment was the done thing in schools. Children were caned, hit with a leather strap, had blackboard chalk and sometimes even the erasers (wooden ones!) thrown at them. Parents routinely disciplined their own with slippers and belts and it was a completely acceptable way of dealing with a errant child.

I was educated in Catholic institutions, my teachers were sisters, priests and female teachers. I also was physically “abused” once by one of my teachers. It was called discipline. Because it was the norm, I accepted it but I was angry for a long time. Later, with the help of God, I learned to forgive and forget. Today, I can discuss the matter without taking sides, one, because I know it was the grace of God that descended upon me and gave me a forgiving heart, learning that I need to forgive if I wanted to be forgiven by Almighty God, Who has the ultimate judgment. Two, because by releasing the baggage of resentment, I could be a free person as God intended me to be. I understood that I must forgive, otherwise I’ll live the rest of my life miserably.

The claims I have heard today are unacceptable by today’s standards, and quite rightly so, but to make out that the Catholic Church was the ONLY authority to be doing this is disingenuous. (And I realise ‘2 wrongs don’t make a right’ but the point is that that was the way that society at that time expected you to discipline your child.)

My parents used to address to me: If you misbehave outside home, anyone will take the place of your father and mother. An insulting statement these days, but I lived those days and thanks God I never had to confront other parents besides than my real mom and dad but I saw this ruling applied to other kids. My parents used to say “every adult is responsible for a child without discipline.” Where they got these ideas, I don’t know. I think, out of love for God, you are responsible to let a misbehaving child know that a certain type of conduct is expected. All those kids whom I witnessed to be disciplined by strangers, turned out to be good citizens. I guess, for the mentalities of those days, it worked -I’m glad.

Our news reports here have lead almost all day with this - although important it is not the only important thing going on. And I’d bet that many Church of England orphanages had the same problem, only its not as ‘sexy’ (for want of a better word) to report those - say the words ‘Catholic Church’ and ‘abuse’ together and watch your ratings soar.

Oh, yes! the eyes of the media are fixed on the Catholic Church. At the minimum mistake, it strikes her mercilessly. Here in America, I’ve witnessed cases where an uncle has sexually abused his niece. The parents of the victims never reported to the authorities, never let an outsiders know their secret. Or, what about when a certain mega church pastor sexually abuse x amount of children? Maybe a short report and go to the next assignment. In certain way, this makes us understand the role of the universal church plays, therefore, we must be good role models as we suppose to be since we are the Body of Christ.

I want to leave clearly expressed here that in any way, I agree with any type of abuse to anyone, specially sexual abuse from our priests. Our Holy Father when visited USA said, those abuses will not be tolerated anymore.

 

[St_Francis]

Although sexual abuse is obviously, in any form at all, completely abhorrent and inexcusable I would like to make a little point here.

These claims, as I have heard them today on UK news, date back to the 1920’s. I don’t know what it was like in the US but here up until, I believe, the 1970’s corporal punishment was the done thing in schools. Children were caned, hit with a leather strap, had blackboard chalk and sometimes even the erasers (wooden ones!) thrown at them. Parents routinely disciplined their own with slippers and belts and it was a completely acceptable way of dealing with a errant child.

The claims I have heard today are unacceptable by today’s standards, and quite rightly so, but to make out that the Catholic Church was the ONLY authority to be doing this is disingenuous. (And I realise ‘2 wrongs don’t make a right’ but the point is that that was the way that society at that time expected you to discipline your child.)

Our news reports here have lead almost all day with this - although important it is not the only important thing going on. And I’d bet that many Church of England orphanages had the same problem, only its not as ‘sexy’ (for want of a better word) to report those - say the words ‘Catholic Church’ and ‘abuse’ together and watch your ratings soar.

I was going to make this same point. Sexual abuse, obviously, is beyond the pale, but
physical discipline of the type now considered abusive was common even in the States back then. We have also had other scandals, which haven’t made the news to the point that the Church scandals have: the Native American children taken from their parents and put into boarding schools (who were physically disciplined if they spoke their native language); state reform schools; orphanages… And currently we have the same situation existing in our public school system: teachers sexually abuse students–“their contracts are not renewed,” and they go off to another school system… foster homes where abuse occurs.

I think that all these problems did in fact exist, and I feel terrible about what happened, esp in the cases of sexual abuse of children, but I also see that the media and society is focusing on the Catholic Church.

However! another point that I would like to make, in the cases of institutions for neglected, abandoned, or orphaned children, I have been reading about problems people have when they adopt older children, and some of these children are really out of control, and we are just now beginning to get an idea of what to do about it. Remember that quite a lot of this abuse occurred before or to children from before our understanding the need that babies have to bond with their caretakers. An institution overwhelmed by babies would have produced a number of children who were incapable of the level of human relating that is necessary to behave in accord with the rules. I am not “blaming the victims” but trying to clarify the situation the religious found themselves in with too few resources including knowledge of how to handle this.

 

[Steeltemplar]

All of these abusers and their superiors who simply moved them around only to abuse again and again and again should be turned over to the law for their just punishment and excommunicated. I certainly don’t want any of them in my parish nor do I want to have to support them in any way, shape or form now or during their retirement. I am so disgusted even if “only” one out of ten complaints are truthful. That is still too many. Repulsive.

Indeed, any incident of this, no matter how few, is too many.

 

[Detales]

St Francis,

I agree with much of what you said. One of our difficulties, and I have attempted to point to it in my two prvious posts in this thread, is that we often make the mistake of labeling a problem as solely the fault of the institiution in which it occurs. This is reasonable up to a point, but ultimately we are dealing with human nature itself, and the cultivation of its potentials in individuals, or the lack thereof.

Certainly we had different public standards at one time. But we have the option now of looking at matters in a broader context. It is because, I think, of the alleged high spiritual standars of the perpatrators in religious institutions of any kind, that we find those offenses particularly abhorent. Some offenses might happen in more “ordianary” familial or other situations that never had a claim of deific sanction as their cheif reason for being and therefore appear to have a less far reaching implication.

Insofar as it was an act of complicity of the institution to hide or mitigate claims of abuse by whatever means, those institutions are also at fault. But this is why it is necessary to take such behabviors away from the labeling of them in terms of only the institutions. It must be seen as a human problem occuring irrespective of a particular institution. We can litanize other churches than our own, and private institutions or public as well. But what are the common factors in these behaviors? Where do they stem from? how does the structure of an institution or a social unit faciltate of prevent such abuse? We could behoove ourselves to look at a larger, more inclusive picture, as could the press, in order to get to the root of this continuing drama and stem it where it starts.

 

[Steeltemplar]

And yes, of course there are those who would take advantage of the ability to accuse and attempt to work that to their advantage. But please, that is clearly an ancilliary issue, and bears no degree or kind of mitigation for actual acts committed that are in examination here.

I agree with you - fraudulent cases do not mitigate actual acts committed. In fact, I would say that those who do bring fraudulent accusations are actually offending the real victims by trying to use their suffering for gain.

My real worry is that if care is not taken, then a mentality will prevail which will allow innocent people to be wrongly accused of very grave crimes.

I am sorry if that was unclear.

 

[lwest]

That honestly does not make any sense. The good of the Church is served by making sure that abusive Priests (who do exist) are removed.

But I’m sure some kept quiet because there was/is a mindset of protecting a priest NO MATTER WHAT. I think it’s a formula for disaster. This scandal makes the Church look so bad, makes us look so bad (even if we would never hurt a child). How can we as a Church speak out against abortion or gay marriage when pedophilia, abuse, and blatant disrespect for children is so rampant. And then there’s the scandal with the Legionnaires of Christ and their manipulative recruiting tactics. What’s going on??? How many people have left the Church because of things like this? How can it be fixed? IMHO, the Church needs to get it together if we’re going to truly live as Christ wants and bring people to Him.

 

[Steeltemplar]

But I’m sure some kept quiet because there was/is a mindset of protecting a priest NO MATTER WHAT. I think it’s a formula for disaster. This scandal makes the Church look so bad, makes us look so bad (even if we would never hurt a child). How can we as a Church speak out against abortion or gay marriage when pedophilia, abuse, and blatant disrespect for children is so rampant. And then there’s the scandal with the Legionnaires of Christ and their manipulative recruiting tactics. What’s going on??? How many people have left the Church because of things like this? How can it be fixed? IMHO, the Church needs to get it together if we’re going to truly live as Christ wants and bring people to Him.

I will be honest - I am a convert and young (28 in a couple days), so I wonder if for that reason I never encountered that mindset of, as you say, protecting a Priest no matter what.

I agree with you, of course. The Church must make sure that these abuses stop and never happen again. Thankfully, Pope Benedict is very serious about protecting the innocent from such evils.

 

[lwest]

I will be honest - I am a convert and young (28 in a couple days), so I wonder if for that reason I never encountered that mindset of, as you say, protecting a Priest no matter what.

I agree with you, of course. The Church must make sure that these abuses stop and never happen again. Thankfully, Pope Benedict is very serious about protecting the innocent from such evils.

A Happy 'Pre" Birthday to you!! (I remember 28…sigh…) I hope Pope Benedict cleans house and shakes up all the religious so maybe they’ll start practicing the virtues that they preach. These scandals (Sisters of Mercy, Legionnaires, Christian Brothers, and others)sure make us lose credibility. And think of the cycle that’s created…many abused grow up to be abusers and so on, and so on, and so on (not all, of course).

When I tried talking about the 1st scandal a few years ago, ya know the solution that was given to me? “Teach the children virtue”…that makes no sense to me. I said the priests are the ones who need to be taught virtue. Of course, that didn’t go over well.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

nytimes.com/2009/05/21/world/europe/21ireland.html?ref=global-home

 

[Snerticus]

This isn’t shocking at all. Catholics often made these abuses out to be a mostly “American” problem, but everybody knows better. This sickness is going on in every country, whether first, second, or third world; it’s just a matter of the truth being revealed. I imagine most families are like one very close to me in which a Catholic priest acted improperly toward a boy several decades ago, but the family never made it public or confronted the matter, and the priest is, of course, still a priest. Even if the matter was confronted, the Bishop would have just moved the priest to another unsuspecting parish where he could prey on more boys.

“By their fruits will you know them.”

The devil in the last days will be attacking the Church and the sheep will scatter. You seem as if you are one of those scattering sheep I’m afraid. I pray for you and for myself that I cling to the Shepherd. We all need prayer in these times. We all need Christ.

 

[Alethiaphile]

“Many of those who are alleged to have carried out the abuse are now dead”
Funny how this is always the case.

Nothing funny, or suspect, about it. It’s the result of bishops deliberately using their considerable resources to cover up this abuse for decades.

 

[Detales]

Snerticus, how will you even know Christ if you practice in association with a belief system that can not only allow but foster such things? How Christ like is such a horror as is reported? Yet I still maintain that it is a problem endimic with the anthropomorphic perception of God, and therefor of the Abrahamic religions as a whole, not just Catholicism. Maybe the sheep are scattering toward the refuges of sanity. If we can get over and through this one, maybe we can address the genital mutilations practiced on young girls in the Middle East and African countries. After all that, we might have the courage to examine our own ways of worshiping a thought up “god” and stop worshiping God in ignorance.

How many of us have spent the same amount of time or sincere effort on determining the origins of our religious beliefs from without the church doctrins, or outside of our habitual “thinking,” as we have spent in buying a car, selecting a university, or a mate? Perhaps the scattering sheep are the first signs of an awakening to a genuine self generated and sincere devotion to God as God IS, and the cessation of our worship of our habitual bowing to external, materialistic, and false defamers and userpers of God’s Love in the form of religious institiutions. Those who worship in sinecerity and innocence deserve far better. Perhaps only the smart ones who are waking up run.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Nothing funny, or suspect, about it. It’s the result of bishops deliberately using their considerable resources to cover up this abuse for decades.

It’s easy to suppose when the deceased can’t offer an explanation or any form of defense.

Things like having dogs turned on them or being hung by hooks and beat are just too hard to believe and cast the pall of doubt over the rest of the accusations.