Irish abuse report is 'shocking'

[benedictus2]

I am not suggesting that we stop all charity. I am only saying that stopping all charity is the only way to be sure we prevent any future abuse. My opinion is we accept the reality that abusers will exist among us. While we do what we can to screen people and see punishment is extended to criminal activity, we stop worrying about the hype surrounding every report.

Great point! The Catholic Church will always have her detractors (especially the secular press).

 

[benedictus2]

Until we extinguish behaviors, such as conspiracy of silence, in the church as a whole, these issues will continue to occur.

**These issues will always occur and if we get rid of this sort o problem something else take its place. The devil will never rest in trying to destroy Christ’s church. It is naive to think that we can stop that. Only God can. He has allowed it so far. If He wants to He can stop it with by just saying so. But He has not. Perhaps to teach us all humility. **

And pray, pray, pray. It is His Church and He knows what He is on about.

 

[benedictus2]

I’ve got news for you. They will continue to to occur anyway this side of heaven. Nothing will change that short of taking an extreme action like never helping anyone. Using large text doesn’t make your appear more correct. When one has something of value, they do not need to resort to such gimmicks.

Hmmm, I did not see your post when I made mine. Great minds think alike do you think? Okayl maybe piddly little minds, they also think alike

 

[benedictus2]

Priests are men and men need sex. Maybe if celibacy was an option instead of being an obligation, we would have less pedophilia.

So how do you account for the high incidence of sexual misconduct among protestant pastors who have wives?

As a matter of fact, how do you explain the fact that a lot of paedophiles have wives? How do you explain the swingers? How do you explain married men who rape their children?

 

[pnewton]

Priests are men and men need sex. Maybe if celibacy was an option instead of being an obligation,

This always is brought up and it flies in the face of two facts. One, celibacy is Biblical. Paul praised it as a superior mode of life. Jesus, who was the epitome of man, was celibate. If celibacy was not practical, then the Bible is false.

Second, sociological data shows this to be false. The vast majority of sexual abuse takes place within the family. Father-daughter is the most commonly reported case of child sexual abuse. Why would one open the priesthood to the largest demographic of pedophiles our there? There has never been any correlation between celibacy and sexual abuse.

 

[JosieElaine]

Dear benedictus 2 :
I don’t “explain” anything , God does . Man is sinful by nature : “And God saw that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was evil continually” Genesis 6 : %

 

[redrosetea]

Priests are men and men need sex. Maybe if celibacy was an option instead of being an obligation, we would have less pedophilia. And by the way, why is marriage for a priest more of a terrible thing than pedophilia ? It is my understanding that the Apostles were married, and even Paul said he could have taken a wife if he had wanted one .

Christ was a man and He seemed to do fine without it…so did St Joseph, and then please explain why Protestant married pastors are also pedophiles?

 

[benedictus2]

Dear benedictus 2 :
I don’t “explain” anything , God does . Man is sinful by nature : “And God saw that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was evil continually” Genesis 6 : %

Dear Josie,

Yes, you were trying to explain things by saying that the cause of paedophilia is enforced celibacy!

 

[cknick]

These were not just men engaging in sexual abuse. It was the nuns too. This was power taken to an extreme, not only with the perpetrators but with admins set up and response to the abuse.

Punishment logs…come on! There is no question when you set something like that up in the beginning it is going to get out of control!

**We can’t forget that God gives us free will. He gives us the power to turn away from sin.
That is why Christ told Peter when he was walking on water…“Don’t look down.”

We are not suppose to reach toward that which is evil to gain our courage strength and fortitude to not only make it to heaven ourselves, but to help others. We the church are to keep our gaze fixed on Christ. **

These priests and nuns reached below, no question! Now it’s up to them to ask for forgiveness, focusing on repentance and conversion.

 

[redrosetea]

I also think many of these abusers were also abused themselves…Ireland has a history of religious abuse, persecution and intolerance…The penal laws against Catholics were terrible

This isn’t an excuse but just an attempt to understand the workings in some peoples minds

We need to pray for these people both those that were abused , and those that were the abusers…God is the only one that will bring these people peace

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I do understand your asking this question - I’m sure such a question is running through other peoples’ head too. I suppose, as we have seen with abuse cases involving the clergy in both Ireland and abroad, it is all to easy to tar all clerics with the same brush - or to at least be more suspicious of them.

However, in relation to Blessed Ignatius Rice, with the small bit I have learned about his life over the years, I do believe that he was indeed a holy man who was dedicated to helping the marginalised in society.

But Maciel was thought to be holy too. If he hadn’t been exposed as what he was, the Church would probably be talking about “the Servant of God, Marcel Maciel”. Just how many of the people with S or B or V in front of the their names were secret womanisers, secret paederasts, secret lesbians ? Are you prepared to say “None at all ?” But how can we know that is any more than wishful thinking ?​

One must remember that the Ireland of the twentieth century was absolutely worlds apart from the Ireland that Rice grew up in in the eighteenth century. As you may know, in 1762 when Rice was born, Catholics were suffering greatly under the Penal Laws (imposed by a Protestant government).

And most of them soon to be removed, in 1778. That’s a lot of mythology about them which needs tobe shown up as what it is. But anyway…​

These laws affected the majority of Irish people as Catholicism remained the main religion - Catholics were not allowed to hold public office, they could not inherit property unless they “converted” to Protestantism.

IOW, there are similarities with the state of Protestants in Francoist Spain after 1953​

The so-called Hedge Schools became the main source of education for Catholics because instruction in the Catholic faith was illegal. This is how Rice himself was educated - this is the world he grew up in and these harsh laws were not repealed until Rice was twenty years old.

Rice was involved in business after his education and he married in 1785. His wife died tragically in an accident four years later. She was pregnant at the time and the baby was delivered on her deathbed - Rice’s daughter was born, but she was of fragile health. Following the tragedy, Rice devoted his life to charitable work - he sold his business and sought to train teachers who would dedicate their lives to prayer and who would be willing to teach children free of charge. These schools grew in popularity - despite the repeal of the Penal Laws, Catholics continued to suffer terrible hardship. This hardship became more pronounced shortly during Rice’s last years during the Great Famine of the 1840’s. The Famine was a catalyst for the formation of a number of religious orders - the order which educated me, the Patrician Brothers, came to my home city during the famine with the goal of firstly feeding the children and then educating them. I believe that Blessed Ignatius Rice in founding the Presentation Brothers and the Christian Brothers, Nano Nagle in founding the Presentation Sisters, Bishop Daniel Delaney in founding the Patrician Brothers and Sr Catherine McAuley in founding the Sisters of Mercy, did so out of genuine concern and love for the youth of Ireland.

Unfortunately, certain followers of Rice were not faithful to his ideals. While I know there is no excuse for what happened in the institutions - and indeed there are many different reasons for what happened - I believe that ultimately the abuse was symptomatic of a culture of greed which gradually grew (we know the institutions got money from the state which often funded lavish lifestyles for the brothers, rather than being used for the good of the children), and of course of a society which up until recently (1980’s) simply could not question anyone in the Church. Despite this, I think it is important to remember the religious who remained faithful to the Gospel and to the aims of their founders. I am personally of the view that Blessed Ignatius is most certainly worthy of the title “Blessed”.

Well, you know more of him than I do - I hope you’re right. I don’t see much in the post that clears him, but you know more of him.​

 

[AlexisLivia]

“Priests are men and men need sex. Maybe if celibacy was an option instead of being an obligation, we would have less pedophilia.”
Many priests would disagree (including both priests at my parish, who joined several other diocesan priests to write a letter to our bishop in praise of celibacy a few years ago). Besides, statistically speaking, most child abusers are MARRIED MEN. Pedophilia has nothing to do with whether or not one is married. Moreover, as another poster has stated, child abuse occurs in other religious denominations by MARRIED clergy…this includes Episcopalians, Baptists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Judaism, etc. Problem is, these stories are swept under the rug by the media, who are out to destroy the Catholic Church. Don’t take my word for it…google the subject yourself and see.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If this is true, then you certainly understand the complex relationship between Church and State during the Middle Ages, no? For example, I challenge you to tell me how the Spanish Inquisition came about, in detail.

hahaha… are you really an historian? If so, would you like to share with us how much abuse and torture the Catholics have suffered themselves? If you cannot name major events in history where Catholics were violently and mercilessly persecuted, I will not believe you are an historian, as you claim. Not for a second…

Bold claims. Now back it up with real evidence. Cite papal documents please, or you have no case.

As a professor of physics, and a Catholic, I can say that there have been mistakes made, but in general this is a false claim. During the Middle Ages, the Church actually founded and supported many universities which were explicitly given academic freedoms, including in natural sciences. Actually the educational system that we have today is FAR more oppressive than what existed in the Middle Ages. Today’s scientists who disagree with the agenda-driven leftist topics (e.g. global warming) are mercilessly attacked and black-listed in order to shut down debate on the topic. Furthermore, whereas academics during the Middle ages had the freedom to talk about physics and philosophy in the same lecture, today’s academics do not enjoy such freedom because of the over-compartementalization that has taken place through this arificially forced separation of science from religion. Classical education (going back to the Greeks) was always holistic. Modern education, on the other hand, is incapable of understanding humanity and our relationship to the rest of nature because it insists on isolating different aspects of it.

Odd… nothing I have read here casts doubt on the true victims of the abuses. There was a very rational reminder, however, that within these mass scandals there will ALWAYS be two types of victims: those who were geniuinely abused, and those who were falsely accused of abusing. Both types of victims need to be remembered in our prayers, don’t you think?

Funny, it doesn’t want to make me leave. Not at all. I love my Church.

The fact of the matter is that the Roman Catholic Church derives her holiness from Christ Himself, and He is able to act through the Church with the assistance of the faithful clergy and laity and *in spite of *scoundrels from within the Chruch. The scoundrels are not bigger than the Body of Christ. Thank the Lord…

I’m sure your comments are based on an unbiased assessment of both the good and the bad that has come from the Church, right?

Cite the “wrong dogmas” please. Clerical celibacy is a God-send to women who need to talk about complex spiritual issues with a priest. If priests were married, it would not be appropriate to have such conversations. And then where would we go for guidance? Oh… maybe to one of those secularist pop-psychologists who want us to get in touch with our feelings. lol.

And with regards to Papal infallibility, do you even understand what this means? Only the Bible is Divinely Inspired, meaning literally “God Breathed”. It is utterly and truly inerrant in everything that is contained within the Bible as the authors had intended to communicate. Papal infallibility refers to the Holy Spirit providing safety to the Pope when he comments on Christian Dogma as it has been transmitted to us in time and disseminated in space. If we did not have this, then our Church would be in a state of theological chaos, much like what we see today in Protestantism.

I thought the last straw was when you left the Church.

haha… obviously! You have your special knowledge now… enjoy your life, sir!

You know, this conversation may be a little more interesting if you were to actually back up some of your rants with real facts… but then again, that would perhaps interfere with your version of “the truth.”

At any rate, take heart my fellow Catholics… we have scoundrels in our midst, but Christ is stronger than the scoundrels. We must serve Christ and confront the scoundrels head-on. We must also acknowledge that we do not have perfect knowledge of every situation, and we must pray for wisdom and guidance at every step of the way. Most of all, we must pray for both the victims of clergical abuse and for those who have been falsely accused.

In Christ,
Shylah

Where was Christ while all those children were being abused ? ​

A very absent help in trouble, as usual. He’s useless - why not worship someone or something that will actually be some use ?

 

[redrosetea]

In the first place sex is not a need, it is a desire…Many desires go unmet by most of us…we might desire a rollys or a castle, it doesn’t mean we get it

A need is something that we must have to live…No one needs sex to live…they might desire it…but they can live without it

Many people are called to the single life and live as celibates, and have a completely happy life and they are not all clergy ,and many aren’t even catholic

I know many people who live singly and have a wonderful life filled with good friends, and laughter

 

[Joya]

Although sexual abuse is obviously, in any form at all, completely abhorrent and inexcusable I would like to make a little point here.

These claims, as I have heard them today on UK news, date back to the 1920’s. I don’t know what it was like in the US but here up until, I believe, the 1970’s corporal punishment was the done thing in schools. Children were caned, hit with a leather strap, had blackboard chalk and sometimes even the erasers (wooden ones!) thrown at them. Parents routinely disciplined their own with slippers and belts and it was a completely acceptable way of dealing with a errant child.

The claims I have heard today are unacceptable by today’s standards, and quite rightly so, but to make out that the Catholic Church was the ONLY authority to be doing this is disingenuous. (And I realise ‘2 wrongs don’t make a right’ but the point is that that was the way that society at that time expected you to discipline your child.)

Our news reports here have lead almost all day with this - although important it is not the only important thing going on. And I’d bet that many Church of England orphanages had the same problem, only its not as ‘sexy’ (for want of a better word) to report those - say the words ‘Catholic Church’ and ‘abuse’ together and watch your ratings soar.

Excellent post! This puts things into perspective.

 

[Shin]

It’s good to remember that moderate corporal discipline is not only moral, it is necessary for a virtuous life.

It was often done to excess in the past, but was common in all circles. Now it is neglected, commonly in all circles – and now, children grow up without the ability to restrain themselves from any pleasures, sinful or not.

The price of physical pain is worth the salvation of a soul. It is not a moral evil to discipline people physically. However, in these amoral times, it is viewed as such because in times when pleasure is the only moral law, what is immoral is pain.

 

[ckempston]

“Priests are men and men need sex. Maybe if celibacy was an option instead of being an obligation, we would have less pedophilia.”
Many priests would disagree (including both priests at my parish, who joined several other diocesan priests to write a letter to our bishop in praise of celibacy a few years ago). Besides, statistically speaking, most child abusers are MARRIED MEN. Pedophilia has nothing to do with whether or not one is married. Moreover, as another poster has stated, child abuse occurs in other religious denominations by MARRIED clergy…this includes Episcopalians, Baptists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Judaism, etc. Problem is, these stories are swept under the rug by the media, who are out to destroy the Catholic Church. Don’t take my word for it…google the subject yourself and see.

Any evidence to back this up? I’m not saying it doesn’t happen everywhere, but it doesn’t seem pandemic in any other church. I mean, “do a google search” is not exactly convincing proof. Based on my personal experience in which someone close to me was abused by a Catholic priest, but it was never, to this day, revealed, suggests to me that we’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg with the Catholic Priests abusing innocents. The other problem is that the Magesterium systematically covered it up with Bishops moving repeat offenders around on unsuspecting parishes. The Magesterium was complicit in this.

 

[redrosetea]

I have read statistics about the abuse of children in all religions the numbers are about the same around 2%…The Catholic church is so much bigger than other religions that it seems like more but it isn’t…there are a billion Catholics in the world

 

[Cinette]

The Dynamics of Celibacy

Some recent high-profile priest scandals have put celibacy back in the limelight as a topic for the pagan world to rage about, but rarely will you hear what the Catholic Church actually teaches about it. I hope that the following insights will be a short-course in the dynamics of a marvelous life of grace: namely, celibate chastity. The world needs to hear “the other side” of the story.

Number One: Celibacy is a gift to the world, not a rule imposed by the Church on a few seemingly-abnormal men. Celibacy initiates men into a life of spiritual fatherhood in a strikingly positive way for others. We are called “father” for a reason: we bring spiritual life to our people through the sacred mysteries which we handle, and they are drawn into a spiritual family thereby. A truly dedicated priest has thousands of spiritual children who sometimes make immense demands on him—I often wish I had only seven children like my father! In an age where men have massively renounced their sacred duty to generate, protect and nurture families, there are myriads of selfless, celibate men sacrificing themselves in a truly manly way for the sake of God’s family and, indeed, even for the sake of many individual families. The fact that some priests fail at it does not make the gift of celibacy anything less than a true blessing; in fact, its failures force us to reflect more deeply on its quiet successes. It’s hypocritical to think that we should throw away the gift of celibacy (i.e., make it “optional”) based upon a miniscule percentage of failures of its practitioners. We don’t say the same thing about the much higher percentage of failures in marriage. Should we allow polygamy just because some married men can’t stick to one woman? This is the time to reaffirm the genuine beauty and value of celibacy, not change this immense gift to us.

Number two: Celibacy is the personal renunciation of the legitimate goods of marriage and family as a fruitful sacrifice for the kingdom of God. The astonishment of this generation that a perfectly normal, red-blooded male could make that particular sacrifice is exactly the point of celibacy. The world needs to know that there are some men walking around who are not bound either by the expectations of society or by the terms of our fleshly human nature. They are bound by only one concern; that of a kingdom that is not of this world, and they are willing to sacrifice everything for it. The presence in society of men who make this sacrifice is profoundly challenging to a culture that wants to reduce everything in life to the pleasure principle. Such a total renunciation is truly counter cultural: it’s like choosing to live with a permanent wound in the heart that never heals but out of which flow “rivers of living water” (Jn 7:38) that heal countless others. Celibacy is not easy for anyone to live, in fact, it is a constant death to self; but it is enormously life-giving to others, and the Church has not lost sight of that for two thousand years.

Number three: vows are vows. Married men make vows and so do priests. A vow is a promise before God of fidelity to a particular person or state in life. From a spiritual point of view a vow in marriage has the same significance as a vow of celibate chastity: it is permanently binding on the individual and requires total fidelity. We all know that vows are broken by weak and fallible men, but we also know and have seen that vows can be repaired, sins repented of, amends made and forgiveness granted to those who have offended others. Who of us does not depend in some way on the Mercy of God and those we have hurt when we have fallen? The return to fidelity breaks our pride and chastens our passions. What we must never do is make excuses or justify our compromises with pop cultural moral relativism. For example, the fact of “falling in love” with someone is no more an excuse to abandon the celibate priesthood than it is to abandon a wife and family for another woman. I have known many married men who have had that experience and then, in a more rational moment, picked themselves up, dusted themselves off and returned to fidelity—sometimes at a great cost. Thankfully God gave us a rational will, in addition to our lower passions, so that we have something other than whimsical feelings to govern our actions. Fidelity is always possible for those who desire to return to their deepest commitments.

Well, although a short article on celibacy is not enough to explain such a beautiful mystery, it is just enough to witness to a very dynamic way of life whose adherents have given life to millions throughout the centuries. In this time of great secular challenge to our faith, let us pray for the celibate men and women who have served us so well in this life and especially for those who are still trying to return to fidelity.

Sincerely,

Rev. Thomas J. Euteneuer,
President, Human Life International

 

[Cinette]

Any evidence to back this up? I’m not saying it doesn’t happen everywhere, but it doesn’t seem pandemic in any other church. I mean, “do a google search” is not exactly convincing proof. Based on my personal experience in which someone close to me was abused by a Catholic priest, but it was never, to this day, revealed, suggests to me that we’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg with the Catholic Priests abusing innocents. The other problem is that the Magesterium systematically covered it up with Bishops moving repeat offenders around on unsuspecting parishes. The Magesterium was complicit in this.

There was a case in Boston which was published in the papers 250 times in one month!!

Just say the word Catholic to some Protestants and they immediately gloat and want to tell you stories of “baaaaad” priests again and again and again!

Why not talk about the thousands of good Holy men who sacrifice their lives for others. Huh?

Think about it. Do you want to be a person who really seeks the truth or do you prefer to be a gossip and one who simply loves to gloat about a small number of priests who have betrayed the Body of Christ?

Do you want to focus on the tares or the wheat?